Did Dr. Kellogg really teach pantheistic theories?

[pnattmbtc]

You need to go back and read what was said. I'm saying there are things in the Bible that do not seem reasonable or logical to many people, but we should still accept the Bible, because it it the word of God.

I didn't say those things aren't reasonable to you or to me. I am simply making the case thst the Bible does contain things that don't appear reasonable or logical to others. The Bible itself teaches this. Ellen White herself says the same thing. Human reasoning and God's ways are not always in harmony. That's elementary.

I think SivartM was taking what you wrote as implying that we should take what the Bible says, even if it doesn't seem logical or reasonable to us, and that's why he replied as he did. If this is a misunderstanding of what you think, I had the same misunderstanding he did. I thought, based on what you wrote, that his response was reasonable. You seem to have thought that his response was totally off base, as if he were wasting your time, but I don't think so. I think based on what you wrote, his response was reasonable, although there may have been some misunderstanding between the two of you that could be worked out.

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding the first part of the post, that human reasoning by itself is not sufficient, I think everybody knows and accepts this, and no further comment is necessary (nor was necessary in the first place).

I never said that all human reasoning should be set aside completely. It seems foolish to me that you would think this is what I'm saying.

[pnattmbtc]

Where exactly is the implication of that in my statements? Both you and SliverM misunderstand what I said.

Please post the statement that you believe indicates that I don't think logic and reason are important.

It's the comment that SivartM is responding to. However, you and I have a discussion regarding Adam/Eve and Abraham which looks to be addressing the same point, so we can just go with that.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

But it's that reasoning that convinces people of the most insane things. I could insist that the world is made of snow because of some holy writing that I translated from hieroglyphics on diamond lasagna noodles, and that if you use human reasoning it makes no sense but if you just listen to this quote from the holy lasagna you will see that you must have faith in the inerrant word of the holy lasagna....

Where exactly is the implication of that in my statements? Both you and SliverM misunderstand what I said.

Please post the statement that you believe indicates that I don't think logic and reason are important.

[skyblue888]

Kellogg wrote: "There is, in all the world about us, an infinite, divine, though invisible Presence, to which the unenlightened may be blind, but which is ever declaring itself by its ceaseless beneficient activity."

John, if you only look at the content of these quotes, what is the difference between the above quote from Dr. Kellogg and this quote from the Testimonies:

"Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active Agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will." M.H.416.

sky

[teresaq]

And here is the full statement that was quoted from Dr. kellogg:

"There is a clear, complete, satisfactory explanation of the most subtle, the most marvelous phenomena of nature,--namely, an infinite Intelligence working out its purposes. God is the explanation of nature,--not a God outside of nature, but in nature, manifesting Himself through and in all the objects, movements, and varied phenomena of the universe.

Says one, 'God may be present by His Spirit, or by His power, but certainly God Himself cannot be present everywhere at once.' We answer: How can power be separated from the source of power? Where God's Spirit is at work, where God's power is manifested, God Himself is actually and truly present. Said an objector, 'God made the tree, it is true, just as a shoemeaker makes a boot; but the shoemaker is not in the boot; so God made the tree, but He is not in the tree.'

The objector overlooked the fact that the process of tree making in the living trees, is never complete so long as the tree is alive. The tree does not create itself; a creative power is constantly going forward in it.

Buds and leaves come forth from within the tree, So there is present in the tree a power which creates and maintains it, a tree-Maker in the tree, a flower maker in the flower,--a divine Architect who understands every law of proportion, an infinite Artist who possesses a limitless power of expression in color and form; there is, in all the world about us, an infinite, divine, though invisible Presence, to which the unenlightened may be blind, but which is ever declaring itself by its ceaseless beneficient activity."

Now this is the best explanation I have ever read except for Ellen G. White.

Read it again and again and then re-read the statements from the Testimonies from my previous post and you will see that Dr. Kellogg had the true knowledge of God and that those who accused him of being a pantheist did not know what they were talking about any more than the Jewish rulers understood the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

sky