Did Dr. Kellogg really teach pantheistic theories?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Buds and leaves come forth from within the tree, So there is present in the tree a power which creates and maintains it, a tree-Maker in the tree, a flower maker in the flower,--a divine Architect who understands every law of proportion, an infinite Artist who possesses a limitless power of expression in color and form; there is, in all the world about us, an infinite, divine, though invisible Presence, to which the unenlightened may be blind, but which is ever declaring itself by its ceaseless beneficient activity."

It really depends upon what he meant. If I write a computer program, then, in a sense, I'm in the program, and whenever the program is executed, my presence is there. But I'm not literally there. I understand the idea that the book is complete while the flower isn't, but the analogy could be tweaked a bit (actually, saying a computer program is never complete isn't too far from reality, in the real world).

That God, the flower-maker, is present in the flower is a nice thought, as long as one doesn't take it to mean that God is literally in the flower, like a leprechaun or something.

[SivartM]

I don't see much of a difference between God being somewhere in a sense and being somewhere literally. We talk about God being "in" us, but nobody's quite certain how "literal" it is.

I think that God is as much with the tiniest particle as he is with me. He takes care of all of us.

[teresaq]

Teresa wrote:

It seems ellen whites concern was that God was being made into some kind of air-like entity that pervaded all nature, animate and inanimate, instead of a literal, physical Being. ellen white called it spiritualism.

_____________________________________________

"The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize the Presence that pervades all created things." Education, p.100.

"Those who judge of God from His handiwork and not from the suppositions of great men see His presence in everything." 8 T 325.

The Presence that pervades all created things!

See His presence in everything!

"The greatness of God is to us incomprehensible. God's throne is in Heaven, yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present. He has an intimate knowledge of, and a personal interest in, all the works of His hand." Education, p.132.

So here we have God the Being who is in Heaven and yet by the Spirit, His immediate Agency, He is everywhere present, moving in all things, working in and through all.

Now compare this with Dr. Kellogg's writings:

"There is a clear, complete, satisfactory explanation of the most subtle, the most marvelous phenomena of nature,--namely, an infinite Intelligence working out its purposes. God is the explanation of nature,--not a God outside of nature, but in nature, manifesting Himself through and in all the objects, movements, and varied phenomena of the universe.

Says one, 'God may be present by His Spirit, or by His power, but certainly God Himself cannot be present everywhere at once.' We answer: How can power be separated from the source of power? Where God's Spirit is at work, where God's power is manifested, God Himself is actually and truly present. Said an objector, 'God made the tree, it is true, just as a shoemeaker makes a boot; but the shoemaker is not in the boot; so God made the tree, but He is not in the tree.'

The objector overlooked the fact that the process of tree making in the living trees, is never complete so long as the tree is alive. The tree does not create itself; a creative power is constantly going forward in it.

Buds and leaves come forth from within the tree, So there is present in the tree a power which creates and maintains it, a tree-Maker in the tree, a flower maker in the flower,--a divine Architect who understands every law of proportion, an infinite Artist who possesses a limitless power of expression in color and form; there is, in all the world about us, an infinite, divine, though invisible Presence, to which the unenlightened may be blind, but which is ever declaring itself by its ceaseless beneficient activity."

This is not the theory of a pantheist but of one who had the true knowledge of God. Kellogg believed in a personal God and in a personal Christ. How could he be a pantheist?

sky

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Richard,

"You place upon your table butter, eggs, and meat, and your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go?" (Testimonies, Vol. 2, p. 362)

I'd like to see that blown up on on the doors of the Adventist potlucks .

Wow, *that* was a judgmental statement by EGW. Too bad she didn't know about Vitamin B12.

[Woody]

Richard,

"You place upon your table butter, eggs, and meat, and your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go?" (Testimonies, Vol. 2, p. 362)

I'd like to see that blown up on on the doors of the Adventist potlucks .

Oh Pleeezze. We don't need that kind of legalism taught in our churches.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: fccool

Richard,

"You place upon your table butter, eggs, and meat, and your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go?" (Testimonies, Vol. 2, p. 362)

I'd like to see that blown up on on the doors of the Adventist potlucks .

Wow, *that* was a judgmental statement by EGW. Too bad she didn't know about Vitamin B12.

rudywoofs you make a good point. Do you have the book? I would read that whole chapter to put that statement into context.

[skyblue888]

Thank you Stephen. Interesting info. (see his post below mine)

Can I make make one thing clear? Personally I am not a pantheist and never want to be one. To be one means to no longer believe in a personal God or in a personal Christ. But I do believe, in harmony with the Testimonies that Pantheistic theories, followed to their logical conclusion, sweep away the whole Christian economy. (8 T 291)

Here is what I believe. "God's throne is in Heaven (Ps.11:4); yet, by His Spirit He is everywhere present. He has an intimage knowledge of, and a personal interest in, all the works of His hand." Education, p.132.

Not a pantheist could ever believe such a thing simply because to be a pantheist is to deny the very existence of a personal God. To a pantheist everything is God and God is everything. So we may as well forget about ever meeting God in person, or going to Heaven, and therefore we may as well forget about the existence of a sanctuary in Heaven where Christ is pleading the merits of His sacrifice before the Father in behalf of those for whom He died.

Stephen, what do you make of these statements?

"Those who judge of God from His handiwork and not from the suppositions of great men, see His presence in everything." 8 T 325.

"Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active Agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will." Mnistry of Healing, p.416.

Is not the Holy Spirit God's immediate Agency?

We know that in nature, including ourselves, everything begins with a seed.

"The Lord puts His own Spirit into the seed, causing it to spring into life. Under His care the germ breaks through the case enclosing it and springs up to develop and bear fruit." Testimonies, Vol.8, p.326.

Then we read, "The same power that upholds nature, is working also in man." Education, p.99.

So this is what I believe. God's throne is in Heaven. There in the midst of this throne is One bearing in hands and feet and side the marks of the suffering endured to reconcile man to God. We see a Father, infinite, dwelling in light unapproachable yet receiving us to Himself through the merits of His Son. (A.A.333) I also believe that through the immediate Agency of the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Godhead, both the Father and the Son are perpetually at work in nature.

"Nature testifies of an Intelligence, a presence, an active energy, that works in and through her laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son. Christ says, 'My Father worketh hitherto and I work.' John 5:17." Patriarchs and Prophets, p.114.

In what did Dr. Kellogg differ from this?

Thank you for your attention.

So it doesn't really matter to me what Kellogg taught since I believe all the above. The reason why I am questioning what has been said about Kellogg is that in their campaign against him, the leaders of the G.C. may have manipulated the testimonies in an effort to discredit him since they could not bring him under their control. Mrs. White said that these men, the G.C. leaders, had chosen darkness rather then light and that they did not know what spirit they were of and that they were turning everything upside down. Finally she was shown that the self-confident management of men had resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men and that they would tolerate no opposition. God being removed from His position of sovereignty, they would place their dependence upon human power, which, without God, is worthless.

sky

___________

Stephen, could you tell us what you understand pantheism to be as opposed to what the Bible and the Testimonies teach in regard to nature and nature's God?

Thank you.

sky

___________

OK sky,

Pantheism is a false belief that God is actually in His creation, such as trees, bushes, etc. or all of nature. Ellen White is very clear about the Living Temple; and why you take this position of agreement with John H. Kellogg and his book, is mystifying to me. She warned to not even read this book to see what it is or anything. I choose not to defy the Spirit of Prophecy in this matter. Brother, I would urge extreme caution concerning this matter and just step away from it. Satan can ensnare you before you can blink your eye. Do you care about being in the kingdom of God?

blessings, Steve

Pantheism

"First published Tue Jun 4, 1996; substantive revision Thu May 17, 2007

Pantheism is a metaphysical and religious position. Broadly defined it is the view that (1) "God is everything and everything is God … the world is either identical with God or in some way a self-expression of his nature" (Owen 1971: 74). Similarly, it is the view that (2) everything that exists constitutes a "unity" and this all-inclusive unity is in some sense divine (MacIntyre 1967: 34). A slightly more specific definition is given by Owen (1971: 65) who says (3) "‘Pantheism’ … signifies the belief that every existing entity is, only one Being; and that all other forms of reality are either modes (or appearances) of it or identical with it." Even with these definitions there is dispute as to just how pantheism is to be understood and who is and is not a pantheist. Aside from Spinoza, other possible pantheists include some of the Presocratics; Plato; Lao Tzu; Plotinus; Schelling; Hegel; Bruno, Eriugena and Tillich. Possible pantheists among literary figures include Emerson, Walt Whitman, D.H. Lawrence, and Robinson Jeffers. Beethoven (Crabbe 1982) and Martha Graham (Kisselgoff 1987) have also been thought to be pantheistic in some of their work — if not pantheists."

Stephen

[teresaq]

Quote:

I am bidden to tell our ministers to enter into no discussion over these theories. Let them alone. When engaged in discussion over these theories, their advocates will take words spoken to oppose them and will make them appear to mean the very opposite of that which the speaker intended them to mean. Some have been studying these matters for a long time, and are prepared to present them and to lead souls to adopt them. I am now commissioned to tell our people to beware. {BCL 108.5}

The long night interviews which Dr. Kellogg holds are one of his most effective means of gaining his point. His constant stream of talk confuses the minds of those he is seeking to influence. He mis-states and misquotes words, and places those who argue with him in so false a light that their powers of discernment are benumbed. He takes their words, and gives them an impress which makes them seem to mean exactly the opposite of what they said. {BCL 109.1}

If permitted, the evil angels will work the minds of men until they have no mind or will of their own. They are led as the angels cast out from heaven were led. Under Satan's influence these angels uttered sentiments directly opposed to loyalty to God. Thus the family in heaven became corrupted. {BCL 109.2}

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: sky

The reason why the latter rain message has been so long delayed and therefore the finishing of the work and the return of Jesus, is that Satan has succeeded in hiding from us the true knowledge of God, the merits of Christ, and Gospel Order.

I agree regarding the true knowledge of God, but don't know what you mean but the other two things.

Well, pnatt, when was the last time you heard a lecture on the necessity of appropriating to yourself the merits of Christ and that unless you do you cannot be saved? and when was the last time you heard a lecture on what happened at the 1901 and 1903 General Conference sessions?

sky

[skyblue888]

Quote:

I am bidden to tell our ministers to enter into no discussion over these theories. Let them alone. When engaged in discussion over these theories, their advocates will take words spoken to oppose them and will make them appear to mean the very opposite of that which the speaker intended them to mean. Some have been studying these matters for a long time, and are prepared to present them and to lead souls to adopt them. I am now commissioned to tell our people to beware. {BCL 108.5}

The long night interviews which Dr. Kellogg holds are one of his most effective means of gaining his point. His constant stream of talk confuses the minds of those he is seeking to influence. He mis-states and misquotes words, and places those who argue with him in so false a light that their powers of discernment are benumbed. He takes their words, and gives them an impress which makes them seem to mean exactly the opposite of what they said. {BCL 109.1}

If permitted, the evil angels will work the minds of men until they have no mind or will of their own. They are led as the angels cast out from heaven were led. Under Satan's influence these angels uttered sentiments directly opposed to loyalty to God. Thus the family in heaven became corrupted. {BCL 109.2}

But the following is not about discussing Dr. Kellogg's ideas if they were false.

Here is what I believe. "God's throne is in Heaven (Ps.11:4); yet, by His Spirit He is everywhere present. He has an intimage knowledge of, and a personal interest in, all the works of His hand." Education, p.132.

Not a pantheist could ever believe such a thing simply because to be a pantheist is to deny the very existence of a personal God. To a pantheist everything is God and God is everything. So we may as well forget about ever meeting God in person, or going to Heaven, and therefore we may as well forget about the existence of a sanctuary in Heaven where Christ is pleading the merits of His sacrifice before the Father in behalf of those for whom He died.

What do you make of these statements?

"Those who judge of God from His handiwork and not from the suppositions of great men, see His presence in everything." 8 T 325.

"Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active Agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will." Mnistry of Healing, p.416.

Is not the Holy Spirit God's immediate Agency?

We know that in nature, including ourselves, everything begins with a seed.

"The Lord puts His own Spirit into the seed, causing it to spring into life. Under His care the germ breaks through the case enclosing it and springs up to develop and bear fruit." Testimonies, Vol.8, p.326.

Then we read, "The same power that upholds nature, is working also in man." Education, p.99.

So this is what I believe. God's throne is in Heaven. There in the midst of this throne is One bearing in hands and feet and side the marks of the suffering endured to reconcile man to God. We see a Father, infinite, dwelling in light unapproachable yet receiving us to Himself through the merits of His Son. (A.A.333) I also believe that through the immediate Agency of the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Godhead, both the Father and the Son are perpetually at work in nature.

"Nature testifies of an Intelligence, a presence, an active energy, that works in and through her laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son. Christ says, 'My Father worketh hitherto and I work.' John 5:17." Patriarchs and Prophets, p.114.

sky

[fccool]

At this point... I honestly think that it does not matter. I really will leave it up to God to either vindicate or condemn Kellog. There are not enough information for us to believe that he practiced pantheism.

[pnattmbtc]

p:I agree regarding the true knowledge of God, but don't know what you mean but the other two things.

s:Well, pnatt, when was the last time you heard a lecture on the necessity of appropriating to yourself the merits of Christ and that unless you do you cannot be saved? and when was the last time you heard a lecture on what happened at the 1901 and 1903 General Conference sessions?

[skyblue888]

"While we realize our helpless condition without Christ, we are not to yield to discouragement, but rely upon the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Look and live. Jesus has pledged His word; He will save all who come unto him. Though millions who need to be healed will reject His offered mercy, not one who trusts in His merits will be left to perish." D.A.432.

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever shall come to God trusting wholly in the merits of His Son shall not perish but receive the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit received into the soul is the beginning of eternal life.

"We must daily apply to the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use." F.W.87.

The 1901 G.C. Conference stands for Gospel Order for the church with Christ as the Head and 1903 stands for a reversal of that, putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men.

sky

[skyblue888]

At this point... I honestly think that it does not matter. I really will leave it up to God to either vindicate or condemn Kellog. There are not enough information for us to believe that he practiced pantheism.

I agree. Thats exactly what I said to one of my friends today.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

"While we realize our helpless condition without Christ, we are not to yield to discouragement, but rely upon the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Look and live. Jesus has pledged His word; He will save all who come unto him. Though millions who need to be healed will reject His offered mercy, not one who trusts in His merits will be left to perish." D.A.432.

This speaks of "look an live," which is the same thing as the DA quote I cited from "Nicodemus." So do you agree that appropriating the merits of Christ means the same thing the other quote was saying?

Quote:

The 1901 G.C. Conference stands for Gospel Order for the church with Christ as the Head and 1903 stands for a reversal of that, putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men.

Ok. Why do you call it "Gospel Order"? Where does this term come from?

[John317]

None of those things make sense. Even the Bible says the gospel is folly and foolishness to those who are worldly wise. 1 Cor. 1:18-25

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Sure these things make sense. I'm with SivartM here. God says, "Come let us reason together."

....This speaks of a God who loves logic and reason. God is not asking us to believe things which are unreasonable, which require us to turn off our brains to believe. Once we accept this is a possibility (that God wants us to believe things that don't make sense), there's no end to how bad we'll believe God is.

The point I'm making is that the Bible itself says that the gospel is foolishness or nonsense to many people. Thomas was one of them, and there are a lot of people in the world like Thomas.

Quote:

1 Cor. 1:18-25

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. [19] For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. [20] Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? [21] For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. [22] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: [23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; [24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. [25] Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

I know people who think the gospel does not make sense, and they claim this is the reason they reject it. What I'm saying is that we must have faith in what the Bible teaches, and then once we have faith in it and in the word of God, the gospel will make sense to us. It's the Holy Spirit who convicts us of the truth of Scripture. Without the Spirit, we would neither believe it nor understand it.

Quote:

1 Cor. 2:10-14

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. [11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. [13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[John317]

[quote name="

pnattmbtc"]

God says, "Come let us reason together."

Is. 1: 18. Here God is saying, "Let us debate our case in court." The Hebrew word signifies "argue." God and Judah have a dispute over Judah's rebellion and disobedience.

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

From the SOP:

"It is important that in defending the doctrines which we consider fundamental articles of faith we should never allow ourselves to employ arguments that are not wholly sound. These may avail to silence an opposer but they do not honor the truth. We should present sound arguments, that will not only silence our opponents, but will bear the closest and most searching scrutiny." Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 707,708 (1889)"

This speaks of a God who loves logic and reason. God is not asking us to believe things which are unreasonable, which require us to turn off our brains to believe. Once we accept this is a possibility (that God wants us to believe things that don't make sense), there's no end to how bad we'll believe God is.

Of course God is not asking us to turn off our brains.

I'm not saying anything contrary to what Ellen White said in that quote.

But we're not led to all truth by human reasoning but by the Holy Spirit. "We walk by faith and not by sight."

If people think that God's reasoning and human reasoning are the same, there's nothing that they won't reject if they think it's contrary to human reasoning. Human reasoning is not the measuring stick of truth-- the Bible is, and not all the Bible harmonizes with unenlightened human reasoning. All of human nature has been depraved by the Fall, and human reasoning is not exempt. The human heart itself is exceedingly wicked, and who can know it? People often deceive themselves into believing lies, and they believe they have the support of human reasoning. In fact, they frequently reject God because of "reason."

From SOP:

"My brother [E.J. Waggoner], do not try to reason in regard to the errors that the enemy presents. If you will receive the testimony of the Lord, reading His Word with a teachable heart, and refusing to put Scripture on the side of error to maintain falsehood, you will believe that I speak the truth, as a messenger of God. But if you allow the author of error to get between you and the Word, your mind will bear his impress." {21MR 173.1}

"Reason, enlightened by the teachings of God's word and guided by His Spirit, must hold the reigns of control." AA 311

My point is that human reasoning alone-- apart from God's special revelation-- will lead us astray from truth.

"The deepest students of science are constrained to recognize in nature the working of infinite power. But to man's unaided reason, nature's teaching cannot but be contradictory and disappointing. Only in the light of revelation can it be read aright. 'Through faith we understand.' Heb. 11: 3." Ed. 134.

Notice it doesn't say, "Through human reasoning we understand."

[John317]

"Had God desired to be represented as dwelling personally in

the things of nature--in the flower, the tree, the spear of

grass--would not Christ have spoken of this to His disciples

? (Letter 230, 1903.)

Now to me this is a very obscure statement. I doubt Ellen White ever wrote these words and here is why. It is in utter contradiction with the bulk of her statements regarding this issue.

Here's the statement in context. Ellen G. White wrote it as part of a letter to E. J. Waggoner, Oct. 2, 1903. I would encourage you to read the entire letter. After you've read it, I'd be interested in knowing if you still believe Ellen White never wrote it.

Quote:

Had God desired to be represented as dwelling personally in the things of nature--in the flower, the tree, the spear of grass--would not Christ have spoken of this to His disciples? To take the works of God, and represent them to be God, is a fearful misrepresentation. This misrepresentation of God I was called upon to oppose at the beginning of my work, when the Lord sent me forth to proclaim the message that He should give me to speak. {21MR 172.1}

My labors on this line began when I was seventeen years old, and since then I have been over the ground again and again. Case after case has been presented to me, and the power of God has rested on me as I have stood before large assemblies and called out the names of those who were entertaining false views, telling them where such views would lead them if they did not change. {21MR 172.2}

I have seen the results of these fanciful views of God in apostasy, spiritualism, free-lovism. The free-love tendencies of these teachings were so concealed that it was difficult to present them in their real character. Until the Lord presented it to me I knew not what to call it, but I was instructed to call it unholy spiritual love. {21MR 172.3}

I am warned that we are not to talk of God as He is spoken of in Living Temple. The sentiments there expressed are a dishonor to His greatness and His majesty. God forbid that our ministers should entertain these ideas. For myself, I take my stand firmly against them. And I entreat you to accept the message that I bear to you. I ask you to arouse to your danger. Who by searching can find out God? {21MR 172.4}

The theory that He is an essence, pervading everything, is one of Satan's most subtle devices. I warn you to beware of being led to accept theories leading to any such view. I tell you, my brother, that the most spiritual-minded Christians are liable to be deceived by these beautiful, seducing, flattering theories. But in the place of honoring God, these theories, in the minds of those who receive them, bring Him down to a low level, where He is nothingness. {21MR 172.5}

We have a compassionate God, but He will not be trifled with. He will not be dishonored, and make no sign. May the danger into which some of our teachers have fallen lead them to guard their feet carefully, that they shall not wander again upon Satan's ground. Let them walk humbly with God. {21MR 172.6}

It is those who have had the most light that Satan seeks the most assiduously to ensnare. He knows that if he can deceive them, they can, under his control, clothe sin with the garments of righteousness, and lead many astray. God grant that our teachers may see and understand this, their great danger, and that they may recover themselves from the snare of Satan, and put forth redoubled efforts to save others who are exposed. {21MR 172.7}

My brother, do not try to reason in regard to the errors that the enemy presents. If you will receive the testimony of the Lord, reading His Word with a teachable heart, and refusing to put Scripture on the side of error to maintain falsehood, you will believe that I speak the truth, as a messenger of God. But if you allow the author of error to get between you and the Word, your mind will bear his impress. {21MR 173.1}

If you will believe the message that I bear you, you will see your danger. You can then put on the gospel shoes and walk in the pathway of truth, following the true Shepherd, who knows His sheep by name and calls them to follow Him. {21MR 173.2}

There is a strain of spiritualism coming in among our people, and it will undermine the faith of those who give place to it, leading them to give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. I have seen the arch-deceiver tempting several of our ministers, teachers, and medical workers, presenting fanciful theories to them in a most subtle and charming manner, to wean their affection from those whom they should love and cherish. He shows them charming pictures of women whom they have found congenial, suggesting that in the future life they will be united to the one who is so congenial and whom they will ever love throughout the ages of eternity. {21MR 173.3}

My message to our teachers is, If you hold such views you need to be taught the first principles of the truth. You need to stand where you know that you are not departing from the faith and giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. When you break the spell that is upon you, and become teachable, you will escape from Satan's snare. Through humility and reconversion you will again be adopted into the family of God. {21MR 173.4}

To all who are thus tempted I would say, I want to see you standing free before God. I want to see you sound in the faith, holding the beginning of your confidence firm unto the end. Leave every false issue alone. We cannot do our seed-sowing too carefully, for we are sowing for eternity.--Letter 230, 1903.

[John317]

Quote:

:But it's that reasoning that convinces people of the most insane things. I could insist that the world is made of snow because of some holy writing that I translated from hieroglyphics on diamond lasagna noodles, and that if you use human reasoning it makes no sense but if you just listen to this quote from the holy lasagna you will see that you must have faith in the inerrant word of the holy lasagna.

J:Are you serious about this kind of reply? Is this representative of your thinking on why we Seventh-day Adventists believe the Bible?

It's a reasonable reply. His point is that once one decides that logic and reason aren't important, this is the sort of thing you're left with.

But who said that logic and reason aren't important?

You and he seem to be going from one extreme to another. No one on this thread has suggested that logic and reason aren't important. Does putting one's faith in the Bible mean we leave our brains behind?

But the Bible and the SOP do not teach us that human reasoning guides us into all truth. That's the work of the Holy Spirit and He does this through teaching us to understand the word of God.

Human reasoning by itself-- "unenlightened reasoning"-- can and often does lead people completely astray from truth.

Again:

"Reason, enlightened by the teachings of God's word and guided by His Spirit, must hold the reigns of control." AA 311

"The deepest students of science are constrained to recognize in nature the working of infinite power. But to man's unaided reason, nature's teaching cannot but be contradictory and disappointing. Only in the light of revelation can it be read aright. 'Through faith we understand.' Heb. 11: 3." Ed. 134.

"My brother, do not try to reason in regard to the errors that the enemy presents. If you will receive the testimony of the Lord, reading His Word with a teachable heart, and refusing to put Scripture on the side of error to maintain falsehood, you will believe that I speak the truth, as a messenger of God. But if you allow the author of error to get between you and the Word, your mind will bear his impress." {21MR 173.1}

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

"Had God desired to be represented as dwelling personally in

the things of nature--in the flower, the tree, the spear of

grass--would not Christ have spoken of this to His disciples

? (Letter 230, 1903.)

Now to me this is a very obscure statement. I doubt Ellen White ever wrote these words and here is why. It is in utter contradiction with the bulk of her statements regarding this issue.

Here's the statement in context. Ellen G. White wrote it as part of a letter to E. J. Waggoner, Oct. 2, 1903. I would encourage you to read the entire letter. After you've read it, I'd be interested in knowing if you still believe Ellen White never wrote it.

Quote:

Had God desired to be represented as dwelling personally in the things of nature--in the flower, the tree, the spear of grass--would not Christ have spoken of this to His disciples? To take the works of God, and represent them to be God, is a fearful misrepresentation. This misrepresentation of God I was called upon to oppose at the beginning of my work, when the Lord sent me forth to proclaim the message that He should give me to speak. {21MR 172.1}

My labors on this line began when I was seventeen years old, and since then I have been over the ground again and again. Case after case has been presented to me, and the power of God has rested on me as I have stood before large assemblies and called out the names of those who were entertaining false views, telling them where such views would lead them if they did not change. {21MR 172.2}

I have seen the results of these fanciful views of God in apostasy, spiritualism, free-lovism. The free-love tendencies of these teachings were so concealed that it was difficult to present them in their real character. Until the Lord presented it to me I knew not what to call it, but I was instructed to call it unholy spiritual love. {21MR 172.3}

I am warned that we are not to talk of God as He is spoken of in Living Temple. The sentiments there expressed are a dishonor to His greatness and His majesty. God forbid that our ministers should entertain these ideas. For myself, I take my stand firmly against them. And I entreat you to accept the message that I bear to you. I ask you to arouse to your danger. Who by searching can find out God? {21MR 172.4}

The theory that He is an essence, pervading everything, is one of Satan's most subtle devices. I warn you to beware of being led to accept theories leading to any such view. I tell you, my brother, that the most spiritual-minded Christians are liable to be deceived by these beautiful, seducing, flattering theories. But in the place of honoring God, these theories, in the minds of those who receive them, bring Him down to a low level, where He is nothingness. {21MR 172.5}

We have a compassionate God, but He will not be trifled with. He will not be dishonored, and make no sign. May the danger into which some of our teachers have fallen lead them to guard their feet carefully, that they shall not wander again upon Satan's ground. Let them walk humbly with God. {21MR 172.6}

It is those who have had the most light that Satan seeks the most assiduously to ensnare. He knows that if he can deceive them, they can, under his control, clothe sin with the garments of righteousness, and lead many astray. God grant that our teachers may see and understand this, their great danger, and that they may recover themselves from the snare of Satan, and put forth redoubled efforts to save others who are exposed. {21MR 172.7}

My brother, do not try to reason in regard to the errors that the enemy presents. If you will receive the testimony of the Lord, reading His Word with a teachable heart, and refusing to put Scripture on the side of error to maintain falsehood, you will believe that I speak the truth, as a messenger of God. But if you allow the author of error to get between you and the Word, your mind will bear his impress. {21MR 173.1}

If you will believe the message that I bear you, you will see your danger. You can then put on the gospel shoes and walk in the pathway of truth, following the true Shepherd, who knows His sheep by name and calls them to follow Him. {21MR 173.2}

There is a strain of spiritualism coming in among our people, and it will undermine the faith of those who give place to it, leading them to give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. I have seen the arch-deceiver tempting several of our ministers, teachers, and medical workers, presenting fanciful theories to them in a most subtle and charming manner, to wean their affection from those whom they should love and cherish. He shows them charming pictures of women whom they have found congenial, suggesting that in the future life they will be united to the one who is so congenial and whom they will ever love throughout the ages of eternity. {21MR 173.3}

My message to our teachers is, If you hold such views you need to be taught the first principles of the truth. You need to stand where you know that you are not departing from the faith and giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. When you break the spell that is upon you, and become teachable, you will escape from Satan's snare. Through humility and reconversion you will again be adopted into the family of God. {21MR 173.4}

To all who are thus tempted I would say, I want to see you standing free before God. I want to see you sound in the faith, holding the beginning of your confidence firm unto the end. Leave every false issue alone. We cannot do our seed-sowing too carefully, for we are sowing for eternity.--Letter 230, 1903.

God is not an impersonal essence. The Holy Spirit is not an impersonal essence.

"The Lord puts His own Spirit into the seed, causing it to spring into life. Under His care the germ breaks through the case enclosing it and springs up to develop and bear fruit." Testimonies, Vol.8, p.326.

John, do you believe this? Do you believe that the the Lord puts His own Spirit into the seed? Do you believe that the Spirit is "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all"? (Education, p.14) Do you believe that "Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active Agency of a Being who moves in all things accordging to His will"? (Ministry of Healing, p.416)

When the Testimonies tell us that "Those who judge of God from His handiwork and not from the suppositions of great men see His presence in everything," do you believe it? It is by the Spirit that He is present in everything. Do you believe this? All I am saying is that those who are quick to warn about pantheistic theories will not even acknowledge what these statements are saying. "The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize in nature the Presence that pervades all created things." Education, p.100.

It is an intelligent presence, not a mere impersonal essence. I noticed that Dr. Kellogg is constantly talking about a universal presence, an intelligent presence in nature and if I am not mistaken he identifies this intelligent presence as the Holy Spirit just as Mrs. White did.

Anyway, the important thing is to acknowledge what the Testimonies tell us about God being present everywhere by His Spirit moving in all things according to His will, working in and through all. The Holy Spirit is God's immediate Agency and He is certainly not a mere impersonal essence.

Do you acknowledge this or not?

Please say yes or no. There is no in-between. Either God by the Holy Spirit is present everywhere moving in all things according to His will, working in and through all, or He is not!

sky

* We should not be so concerned about what Kellogg taught or what he did not teach but we should be concerned about what the Scriptures and the SoP tell us about God being present in everything by the immediate Agency of the Holy Spirit. "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Eph.4:6. It is by the Holy Spirit that the Father and Christ are above all, and through all, and in you all, working in and through all, moving in all things according to the will of God. This is the truth, not error, certainly not pantheistic theories. "The deepest students of science are constrained to recognize in nature the working of infinite power." Education, p.134. This "infinite power" is not a mere impersonal essence but it is no less than God Himself through the Holy Spirit, "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all." It is "the mind of God." Education, p.14. See also P.P.114, bottom of page.

"The mighty power that works through all nature and sustains all things is not, as some men of science claim, merely an all-pervading principle, an actuating energy." No. "Rightly understood, both the revelations of science and the experiences of life are in harmony with the testimony of Scripture to the constant working of God in nature." Education, p.131,130.

It is by the Spirit that God the Father and Christ are constantly or perpetually at work in all the created things. See P.P.114, bottom of page.

[John317]

Ellen White wrote about the error people were making when they claimed that Dr. Kellogg and she were teaching the same thing. She said they were wrong to think this. It was what Dr. Kellogg himself was saying, and Ellen White said he was mistaken.

Are you familiar with these statements?

Dr. Kellogg taught that God is in the water we drink, in the food we eat, and in the water we bathe in. This is false.

I do believe what Ellen White says in the quotes you give, such as 8 T 326; Education 14, 100, 134; MH 416; PP 114. However, in those pages, Ellen White isn't teaching the same thing that is found in Dr. Kellogg's book, The Living Temple.

Why associate Ellen White's writings with Dr. Kellogg, as if they teach the same things when they don't?

Please study Manuscript Releases (1993) Vol. 21, pp. 171-173; 174-177; 416-420.

The things Ellen White said on this subject are not at all in harmony with Dr. Kelloggs' views when they are rightly understood. If people think they're the same teachings, it shows they don't understand what Ellen White is saying. I think it's harmful and wrong to make it sound as if they are teaching the same things when Ellen White denied this-- and warned against it-- in such strong, clear language.

Do you still believe that Ellen White didn't write the words found on page 172 of that volume?

There she said, "Had God desired to be represented as dwelling personally in the things of nature-- in the flower, the tree, the spear of grass-- would not Christ have spoken of this to His disciples?"

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

But it's that reasoning that convinces people of the most insane things. I could insist that the world is made of snow because of some holy writing that I translated from hieroglyphics on diamond lasagna noodles, and that if you use human reasoning it makes no sense but if you just listen to this quote from the holy lasagna you will see that you must have faith in the inerrant word of the holy lasagna.

But who said that logic and reason aren't important?

[John317]

But it's that reasoning that convinces people of the most insane things. I could insist that the world is made of snow because of some holy writing that I translated from hieroglyphics on diamond lasagna noodles, and that if you use human reasoning it makes no sense but if you just listen to this quote from the holy lasagna you will see that you must have faith in the inerrant word of the holy lasagna.

Originally Posted By: John317

But who said that logic and reason aren't important?

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

You did. Or, rather, you implied it. Which was SivartM's point.

Where exactly is the implication of that in my statements? Both you and SliverM misunderstand what I said.

Please post the statement that you believe indicates that I don't think logic and reason are important.

[John317]

No one on this thread has suggested that logic and reason aren't important.

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

You say things that imply this. For example, you state that certain things aren't logical or reasonable, but we should believe them anyway, because they are in the Bible. It was this statement that prompted SivartM's response about the holy lasagna.

You need to go back and read what was said. I'm saying there are things in the Bible that do not seem reasonable or logical to many people, but we should still accept the Bible, because it it the word of God.

I didn't say those things aren't reasonable to you or to me. I am simply making the case thst the Bible does contain things that don't appear reasonable or logical to others. The Bible itself teaches this. Ellen White herself says the same thing. Human reasoning and God's ways are not always in harmony. That's elementary.

[John317]

Does putting one's faith in the Bible mean we leave our brains behind?

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

It does if Bible truth is unreasonable and illogical.

I never said that Bible truth per se is unreasonable or illogical. I said that not all aspects of the Bible will appear reasonable to some people.

Even the Bible itself teaches that many so-called "wise" people find the gospel "foolishness."

Originally Posted By: john317

But the Bible and the SOP do not teach us that human reasoning guides us into all truth. That's the work of the Holy Spirit and He does this through teaching us to understand the word of God.

Human reasoning by itself-- "unenlightened reasoning"-- can and often does lead people completely astray from truth.

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

This is unrelated to SivartM's point, and is rather a red herring.

No, it is not a red herring, since it is the very point I am making. It is a point made in the Bible itself. It may be that you or SilvartM weren't making that point, but I am.

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Neither he, nor anyone, has said anything about "human reasoning by itself."

I don't need to bring up points that only you or someone else was making. I am able also-- just as you are-- to bring up points that I believe are important and relevant.

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

The question isn't if human reasoning is all sufficient, but if it should be set aside completely.

I never said that all human reasoning should be set aside completely. It seems foolish to me that you would think this is what I'm saying.

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

For example, does God expect us (without providing evidence to the contrary) to believe things which we view as illogical and unreasonable? Or command us (again, without evidence) to do things we believe to be such?

Generally not, no.

But God has commanded people to do things without providing an explanation of why He was giving the command. Two examples of this were the command not to eat of the Tree in the Garden and the command for Abraham to kill his only son, Isaac.

Many people also do not think it's reasonable or logical for God to command them to rest on the Seventh-day of the week. They can't see why it matters which day they rest on.

Other people think it's unreasonable for God to raise all the wicked dead and then destroy them in fire.

I find all of the above to be reasonable and logical, but my point here is that many people don't find them reasonable. I'm sure that they didn't seem logical and reasonable to Eve and Abraham at the time they received the commands.

In any case, I never said that people should set aside all logic and reasoning when they study the Bible. If you or SilvartM believe that's what I was saying, you're misunderstanding my meaning.