Have the demands of God's holy law been made void?

[Robert]

Not according to Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law [The Torah] or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law [Torah] until everything is accomplished."

Have heaven and earth past away? NO!

Has everything been accomplished, that is, according to the law? NO!

Here's another one:

Romans 7:1 "Do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?"

[there buster]

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Romans 7:1 "Do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?"

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Now, there's a doozy of out-of-context. Wouldn't you like to come clean with everyone concerning Romans 7?

Everyone who read Robert's post, please read all of Romans 7 and see if that one verse represents the thrust of Paul's exposition in that chapter.

[Robert]

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Do you not know, brothers — for I am speaking to men who know the law...

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The very first thing the Jews were taught when they were growing up as babies was the law. Then he makes this fundamental statement [Romans 7:1]:

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...The law has authority over a man only as long as he lives.

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The word “dominion” [used in some translations] means rulership, jurisdiction. What he’s saying is true of any law. As long as you are living you are under the law of where you are. We are living in America, we are under the law of America.

Paul now then presents an illustration in verses 2 and 3. It’s a difficult illustration, but it is one that we need to understand in the context of the Bible.

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For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive....

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In other words, when a woman marries a man, she’s stuck with him for the rest of her life, until he dies. That’s what Paul is saying. Why? Because the Bible teaches that when two people get married they are married until “death do us part.” But the word “bound” means more than simply, “She’s stuck to him.” It also means that she is under him, by the law.

The problem is that this woman has found another man, a wonderful fellow. She says, “Boy, I wish I could marry him.” Now, what’s the problem with the first marriage?

Well, there are three problems with the first marriage. First of all, her husband is not sympathetic. When she makes a mistake, when she burns his spaghetti, he says to her, “I’m going to punish you for this!” She says, “Look, please, I was busy. I didn’t realize the knob was on high.” He says, “I don’t care whether you made a mistake or not, I’m going to punish you.” That’s all he can do; no sympathy. Secondly, he won’t lift a single finger to help her. One day he tells her, “Please cook for me some rice and curry.” She says, “But I’ve never cooked it before!” So she calls her Pastor, “Can you come and help me?” Well, her Pastor can. But she says to the husband, “You know how to cook it, can you help me?“ He says, “My job is not to help, my job is to order you around.” The third problem is that all he can do is to command her to obey him and, when she disobeys, he condemns her. So she’s always under guilt, always living in fear, with no peace, trying her best to please her husband, and now she finds another man. But she can’t marry him because he’s also a good fellow. She thinks, “Boy, I wish my old man would die.” And that’s the problem, that’s the worst problem, he won’t die. Even when she puts arsenic in the Postum, he won’t die.

You know why? Because the first husband is the law. Now, let’s be very clear: the law is good, it is holy, what it is demanding is good. But there are certain things that the law cannot do. First of all, it cannot sympathize with you. Why? Because the law is not a person, it is rules. When you are caught by the policeman for speeding, and by grace he forgives you, which is very seldom, please remember it is not the traffic law that forgave, it is the policeman. And what he did was really contrary to the law. He’s breaking the law in forgiving you because he’s not employed to forgive you. You didn’t pay him tax money to forgive you, you paid him tax money to punish you.

So the woman does not have a solution. According to the illustration, the woman wants the husband to die, but the problem is he will not die. And those who say that the law was done away with do not know that the law cannot die.

“Well,” the second man says, “I can’t marry you if you are still married to the first man; so the first thing I have to do is to make your marriage null and void.” How do you do it? Well, there are two problems:

• 1. You can’t get the first husband to commit adultery because then you would have Biblical grounds for divorce. But the husband is good, he’s holy. You give him all the woman you want, he won’t touch them.

  2. He refuses to die.

Whichever you look at it, there is no solution from the human point of view. So Christ says, “I have a solution.” And the wife says, “Really? What is it?” “Why don’t YOU die?” She says, “I? If I die, how can I marry you?”

“Oh, I didn’t mean die by yourself. Let me take you and put an end to you. By putting an end to you, I annul your first marriage, then I’ll raise you up and you’ll be my wife.”

Look at verse 4, that’s the solution. Please notice in the illustration the woman wants the husband to die, but in the application, it’s not the husband who dies, it is we, the woman [Romans 7:4]:

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So, my brothers, you also died to the law [that’s the first marriage] in the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

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Remember Romans 6:

• 1. The death of Christ was a corporate death.

  2. When you were baptized, you were baptized into Christ’s death.

Two things happen when you die with Christ:

• 1. You are delivered from sin (Romans 6), and

  2. You are delivered from under the law (Romans 7).

The law is still there, but you are no longer married to the law. So the law comes to you and says, “You obey me; otherwise, you will die.” You can say to him, “You can find another woman to say that to because I am no longer under your jurisdiction!”

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So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

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In the first marriage, what did you produce? Well, we’ll come to verse 5 and see what you produced there. “But if you’re married to me,” says Christ, “I am not asking you to DO things, I am asking you to abide in Me.” John 15:5:

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I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

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Here the Apostle Paul is saying, “If you’re married to Christ you will bear much fruit.” Now back to Romans 7:5:

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For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.

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Now what did Paul mean by the words “when we were controlled by the sinful nature” or, as some translations read, “when we were in the flesh”? It means “before we died,” in our pre-converted state, while we were still under the law, married to the law, depending on ourselves because the law will not help us. The only kind of fruit you bear under the law is sin, which ends up in death.

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But now [now that you have accepted Christ and have become His bride], by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

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Before you accepted Christ, before you were baptized into Christ, the law held you in its grips. Which means that every time you disobeyed, the law says, “You must die!” It is a tragedy when that some believe that every time a Christian falls, the law says you must die. We are still putting them under the law. The result is that we are not bearing fruits. Because, to God, fruit is not only doing something good, it is doing it with the right motive.

We have a God Who is able to save. And we have a God who doesn’t keep on bugging you with guilt every time you fall. He says, “Look, the reason you fell is because, for that moment, you stopped abiding in Me. Please, let this be a reminder that only when you abide in Me can you bear fruit.” And please notice verse 6 of Romans 7:

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But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

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What does he mean by “the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code”? Under the law, you did serve the law, but for one reason, out of fear: fear of punishment, fear of being wiped out, fear of the curse. So every time you were keeping the law you were doing it our of fear. Why? Because if you did not obey the law, what would it do? Punish you! It is a tragedy when you have Christians serving God out of fear.

If you are not delivered from under the law, and you call yourself a Christian, you are guilty of committing adultery, because the illustration says, if the woman marries the second man while she’s still married to the first man, she’s committing adultery.

But when I accept Christ and am delivered from under the law, and I’m married to Christ, I’ll tell you what happens. Not only does He give me peace, not only does He give me assurance, and not only does He give me hope, but He produces fruits.

[Robert]

Romans 7:1 "The law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives"

Let me illustrate my point....

Let's say that we read in the local newspaper that there was an accident involving a person who was DWI and another driver. Both individuals are killed by the accident - the innocent and the lawbreaker.

Will it do any justice for the officer on the scene to write the offender a ticket? No! Why not? Because the law has no authority over a dead person. The law can only touch you when you are living.

Likewise (using the same analogy) you and I are sinners. The law demands our death. God simply cannot ignore His own law and simultaneously hope to maintain any type of integrity to it.

You see if God could have abolished the terms of His own law (the terms of the O.C.), then there was absolutely no need for Christ [as man] to take the law's curse. He could have simply said, "I forgive you!"

How is this situation remedied? Well, it is called the gospel. Here are three hints:

• Romans 6:6 "Our old self was crucified with Him"

  Romans 7:4 "You have died to the law [i.e., it demanded your death] through the body of Christ"

  2 Cor 5:14 "one died for all, therefore all died"

The Bible clearly teaches that our corporate humanity died in the body of Christ as the Son of Man.

Like the drunk who died in my illustration and therefore couldn't be touched by the law - we also can't be touched by God's law because we died "in Christ"! As far as God's law is concerned we are dead, killed by the law itself! Can the law condemn a dead person? No! Why not? It, the law, has already been satisfied by our death in the body of Christ.

Now does that infer that the law has been abrogated? Absolutely not! What of the unbeliever? Has he/she accepted his/her death "in Christ? Of course not...therefore he/she remain "under the law".

If they remain in the state of unbelief, sooner or later the law will have its justice. Either we accept our death in the body of Christ or we personally experience the 2nd death for ourselves.

[Robert]

The following is for Gerry....

Gerry if you would do not respond...just read what I have to say. No, I am not challenging you...I'm simply trying to met you on your own ground - a compromise if you will.

Paul makes a statement:

• "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they [i.e., believers] have not all obeyed the gospel."

What does it mean to "obey the gospel"? We know what it means to obey rules, but obey the gospel?

In the preceding post I talked of our death "in Christ"....That to me IS the gospel....Anything outside is false gospel...it is incomplete.

Now Gerry (whom I have associated with SUBTLE legalism) keeps on me about using the law as a standard of Christian living. My response has always been, okay, but we are not measuring up...we are falling short. The bottom line is we have been going back and forth for eternity! Maybe using this approach we can come to a compromise?

Remember those verses I used to establish the fact that believers are no longer under law? It is clear...but let's move on from the foundation of our salvation and what it means to "obey the gospel":

As I stated, "In Christ" we died the demands of the law....Because of our relationship to Him the law can't touch us because it considers us dead.

Now obeying the gospel is the reciprocal of this truth. Let me illustrate:

Romans 6:6 ...our old self [the sinful man] was crucified with Him, so that the body of sin [our sinfulness] might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Do we still sin? Yes! (see 1 John 1:8). So this is not referring to our experience but rather the truth as it is "in Christ". "In Him" we died and therefore we are no longer sinning. Dead man can't sin.

Now Paul takes this truth and applies to us as a standard of Christian conduct:

verse 10 "For the death that He [Christ as Man] died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 In the same manner consider/count yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus."

How is this done? First of all our platform is what Christ did in our humanity 2000 years ago....In Him we are complete....As we gain the assurance of His love we begin to "count" ourselves dead to sin and alive to God IN CHRIST JESUS.

In other words obeying the gospel is obeying a truth - a principle. As we have literally died "in Christ" and therefore we have been delivered from the law, now we begin to count ourselves dead to sin....That what it means to obey the gospel!

I'll let Paul have the last word:

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Gal 2:19 For through the law

I died

to the law so that I [might have a beer and watch porn? No... so that ] I might live for God [that's the aim]. 20

I have been [past tense] crucified with Christ

and I no longer live,

but Christ lives in me

. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

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[bevin]

If I jump off a tall building, fall, die - has the law of gravity been broken? No.

If I jump off a tall building, fall, land in a soft pile of foam, and walk away laughing - has the law of gravity been broken? No.

But you are trying to argue that IN THE SECOND CASE we should not jump. This is nonsense.

And Paul tells you this is nonsense. He explicitly says that people who are unable to live up to the predicate of the "don't sin, don't die" argument should not try to insist others live up to it either.

Both the OT and the NT are abundantly clear

(1) None of us is perfect enough to escape the wages of sin, or can possibly become so

(2) Jesus died to save us from this mess

(3) Jesus also died to save Adam from sinning BEFORE he was in this mess

(4) God does not stop the consequences of our actions messing up our lives and the lives of others

(5) Therefore, OUT OF LOVE AND NOT OUT OF EITHER FEAR OR THE DESIRE TO BE SAVED, we should avoid actions that mess up people's (and other animal's) lives

The demands are not void - the law does not make any demands. The law just tells you consequences, and you are already deep into getting those!

/Bevin

[there buster]

Though I agree with the basic position I think you're taking, your particular illustration is unfortunate.

To deliberately sin, counting on the sacrifice of Christ to save you, is presumption. It also happens to be one of the three temptations Christ resisted after his wilderness fast.

But we all fall. The most common word for sin, in the NT, is "hamartia"=to miss the mark. We will miss the mark, we will fall, and that does not cause us to be lost.

[Robert]

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The demands are not void - the law does not make any demands.

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When God created Adam & Eve He created them "under law" - not so much under rules, but rather under a principle - the law of self-renouncing love. Anything outside this scope incurs "the wrath of God", which I understand to be the withdrawal of God from the sinner. Since life is an impossibility without God, the sinner would cease to exist.

So I understand your point, the law is an inanimate object - it, of itself, can't make demands. In the end it is God who demands, “obey and live, disobey and die.” Good point….

But of course the reason for God giving His demands [the demands of His law] was to open the eyes of Jews to the fact that, “by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.”

All of us start out entering the old covenant when we come to Jesus….We do it right after accepting Him. We make all sorts of promises that we fail to fully keep and because we tend to approach Him legalistically we either give up and either

• 1]take a closer look at the gospel or

  2] we become more entrenched into legalism,

  3]even to the point of fully rejecting God altogether.

That is what the majority of Jews in Christ's time ended up doing.

[bevin]

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To deliberately sin, counting on the sacrifice of Christ to save you, is presumption.

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I agree. The example was only supposed to demonstrate playing with the Law of Gravity, not deliberately messing up the universe around me.

[Guest]

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Though I agree with the basic position I think you're taking, your particular illustration is unfortunate.

To deliberately sin, counting on the sacrifice of Christ to save you, is presumption. It also happens to be one of the three temptations Christ resisted after his wilderness fast.

But we all fall. The most common word for sin, in the NT, is "hamartia"=to miss the mark. We will miss the mark, we will fall, and that does not cause us to be lost.

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The apostles encountered this talk...

2 Peter 1

2": Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

"3": According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

"4": Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

"5": And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

"6": And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

"7": And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

"8": For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"9": But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

"10": Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Jude

"24": Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Oh,.but, but, but...this is the notion and doctrine of restless, intolerant , obsessive compulsive disorder perfectonisits...we shouldn't ever quote stuff like this...will turn church people into neurotics..and there will be a bunch of guilt trips and sprouting of accusers of the bretheren..

[Robert]

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"Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory..."[RSV]

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Surely you don't believe that Jude is stating that God is able to keep you from falling into sin and present YOU without sin before God's glory?

While is true that as we surrender (walk in the Spirit) God can keep us from temptation, but to say there are sinless believers and that Jesus is presenting before God smacks of "holy flesh".

As Ed stated, we fall short...we miss the mark. It is like trying to shoot the bull’s eye on a target using a rifle with a bent barrel. We are born in iniquity - in other words we have a bent towards self and no matter how hard we try we will always miss the mark. Now as we learn to let Christ do the target practicing, we make progress. But to say we are not coming short of the glory of God goes against Paul (see Rom 3:23).

Here's a better view of Jude's point (in my opinion):

Col 1:22 He [God] has now reconciled you in His [Christ's] fleshly body through death, [why?] in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith..."

You are holy and blameless in Christ's fleshly body....That's where your assurance must be!

[Gerr]

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Not according to Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law [The Torah] or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them

but to fulfill them.

18 I tell you the truth,

until heaven and earth disappear

, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law [Torah]

until everything is accomplished."

Have heaven and earth past away? NO!

Has everything been accomplished, that is, according to the law? NO!

Here's another one:

Romans 7:1 "Do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law),

that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?"

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[:"blue"] So far so good. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Romans 7:1 "The law

has jurisdiction

over a person as long as he lives"

Let me illustrate my point....

Let's say that we read in the local newspaper that there was an accident involving a person who was DWI and another driver. Both individuals are killed by the accident - the innocent and the lawbreaker.

Will it do any justice for the officer on the scene to write the offender a ticket? No! Why not?

Because the law has no authority over a dead person.

The law can only touch you when you are living.

Likewise (using the same analogy) you and I are sinners. The law demands our death. God simply cannot ignore His own law and simultaneously hope to maintain any type of integrity to it.

You see if God could have abolished the terms of His own law (the terms of the O.C.), then there was absolutely no need for Christ [as man] to take the law's curse. He could have simply said, "I forgive you!"

How is this situation remedied? Well, it is called the gospel. Here are three hints:

• Romans 6:6 "Our old self was crucified with Him"
  Romans 7:4 "
  You
  have died to the law [i.e., it demanded your death]
  through the body of Christ
  "
  2 Cor 5:14 "one died for all, therefore
  all
  died"

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[:"blue"]The "old man" can only be released from the condemnation of the law ONLY IF he is buried dead to sin. You cannot claim the old man is dead IF he continious to LIVE in sin! That's the whole point of Rom 6. Jesus said no one can serve two masters. In Rom 6, Paul contrasts the:

slave to sin vs. slave of God/righteousness.

dead to sin vs continuing in sin

living in sin vs walking in newness of life

crucified with Christ vs alive with Christ

instruments of unrighteousness to sin vs instruments of righteousness to God

under dominion of sin vs freed from sin

under law vs under grace

disobedience leading to death vs obedience from the heart leading to righteousness

slaves of uncleanness, & of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness vs slaves of righteousness for holiness

In Rom 8, the contrast continues.

walking in the flesh vs walking in the spirit

carnally minded = death vs spiritually minded = life & peace.

if you live according to the flesh you will die vs live by the Spirit & put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

those who receive the spirit of bondage vs the adopted sons of God [/]

So, to be free from the condemnation of the law, you MUST stop sinning! Because if you do, the long arm of the law is there to confront you & puts you back in jail! But the promise is that: "...anyone born of God does not continue to sin." 1 Jn 5:18 NIV. Because "no one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." 1 Jn 3:6 NIV.

The reality of our experience is that we continue to make mistakes. As I have told you in the past, the ONLY way I can make sense out of this is the conclusion that it must be that John was talking about is "deliberately, knowingly, and habitually, committing (practicing) sin", as the Amplified puts it.

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The Bible clearly teaches that our corporate humanity died in the body of Christ as the Son of Man.

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[:"blue"]The old humanity cannot be dead if it continues to LIVE in sin. See above. [/]

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Like the drunk who died in my illustration and therefore couldn't be touched by the law - we also can't be touched by God's law because

we

died "in Christ"! As far as God's law is concerned we are dead, killed by the law itself! Can the law condemn a dead person? No! Why not? It, the law, has already been satisfied by our death in the body of Christ.

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[:"blue"]Not only did Christ die for corporate humanity, Paul also says that if want to be "in the likeness of His resurrection," we must also be "united together" with Him "in the likeness of His death." Rom 6:5 NKJ. It is not ONLY Christ that dies, we must also die with Him! Rom 6:8. Unless we do, we cannot claim to also live with Him! IOW, He died to sin, we also must die to sin. He lives to God, we must also live to God. We walk in His steps. What we do is NEVER for merit! What we do is the RESULT of what He has DONE for US! [/]

Gerry

Now does that infer that the law has been abrogated? Absolutely not! What of the unbeliever? Has he/she accepted his/her death "in Christ? Of course not...therefore he/she remain "under the law".

If they remain in the state of unbelief, sooner or later the law will have its justice. Either we accept our death in the body of Christ or we personally experience the 2nd death for ourselves.

---

[Gerr]

"For indeed the GOSPEL was preached to us as well as to them [israelites in the wilderness]; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith...." Heb 4:2 NKJ.

What was the gospel that they heard?

Gerry

[Robert]

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Romans 7:1 "The law

has jurisdiction

over a person as long as he lives"

Let me illustrate my point....

Let's say that we read in the local newspaper that there was an accident involving a person who was DWI and another driver. Both individuals are killed by the accident - the innocent and the lawbreaker.

Will it do any justice for the officer on the scene to write the offender a ticket? No! Why not?

Because the law has no authority over a dead person.

The law can only touch you when you are living.

Likewise (using the same analogy) you and I are sinners. The law demands our death. God simply cannot ignore His own law and simultaneously hope to maintain any type of integrity to it.

You see if God could have abolished the terms of His own law (the terms of the O.C.), then there was absolutely no need for Christ [as man] to take the law's curse. He could have simply said, "I forgive you!"

How is this situation remedied? Well, it is called the gospel. Here are three hints:

• Romans 6:6 "Our old self was crucified with Him"
  Romans 7:4 "
  You
  have died to the law [i.e., it demanded your death]
  through the body of Christ
  "
  2 Cor 5:14 "one died for all, therefore
  all
  died"

---

So, to be free from the condemnation of the law, you MUST stop sinning!

---

Gerry, I give up! I try to comprise with you, but you still insist on law.... You are definitely in the camp of subtle legalism.

Do you remember this statement?

"Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [EGW]

My problem with your conclusion is that you are failing to see that while it is true that all true believers do bear fruit they are missing the mark, that is to say, they are never reaching the highest demands of God's Holy law.

It was Christ life that answers the law. Even if I discount your sins until today - you are still not measuring up to His selfless life. Do you get it?

Rob

[David_McQueen]

My simple understanding is that according to the Psalmist the law is something to delight in.

It is holy and just and good (Romans 7:12)

It is part of the scriptures which is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness and as such was a schoolmaster to show us sin (Romans 5 and 7)

Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian" (Galatians 3:23-25).

The demands of God's law are still binding. Why? Well sin is the transgression of the law, and the wages of sin is death...but the gift of od is eternal life. Christ came to fulfill the law of love not to undermine. He took on the burden of sin, and its consequences.

My understanding is that those who accept him and his sacrifice accept that he has paid the price of death for sin and those who dont......well.....

[Gerr]

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How is this situation remedied? Well, it is called the gospel. Here are three hints:

• Romans 6:6 "Our old self was crucified with Him"
  Romans 7:4 "
  You
  have died to the law [i.e., it demanded your death]
  through the body of Christ
  "
  2 Cor 5:14 "one died for all, therefore
  all
  died"

---

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[:"blue"]What does Paul mean to you when he says, [:"red"]"Are we to continue [abide, remain, stay] in sin that grace might increase?

May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" Rom 6:1,2 NASB

[/]Or, what does it mean to you to have, [:"red"]"our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be DONE AWAY with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin." 6:6,7 NASB.

[/]As I said previously, you cannot claim to be dead to sin & freed from sin IF you continue to live in it! [/]

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So, to be free from the condemnation of the law, you MUST stop sinning!

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[:"blue"] Exactly!!! And as I already pointed out, in order to stop sinning, one has to be born again. One has to have the divine seed in the believer! That is what John is saying, [:"red"]"No one who abides in Him sins [present tense]; no one who sins [present tense] has seen Him or knows Him." 1 Jn 3:6 NASB. [/]

Again, as I already pointed out, the reality of our experience is that we continue to make mistakes. So then, you are faced with a dilemma. 1) By our experience, we continue to make mistakes & thus sin, on the other hand, 2) John claims the one who abides in Him does not continue to sin. Furthermore, Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, "Go & sin no more." And to the healed man at the Pool of Bethesda, "Stop sinning or else something worse might happen to you."

So, who do you believe? Your experience that tells you you are never going to be perfect or stop making mistakes this side of heaven? Or say that the Apostle John & Jesus are liars?

Well, the only way I have been able to make sense of this and be able reconcile what Jesus & John were saying vis-a-vis my personal experience is to believe that what John & Jesus were referring to is the deliberate, willful sinning.

Inadvertent, reflexive mistakes, we will never be free of them this side of the Second Coming. But willful rebellion? It IS not only possible, it is a must!!! Because rebels are excluded from the kingdom. If they are not, there is no way God can guarantee that sin will never rise its ugly head again! [/]

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Gerry, I give up! I try to comprise with you, but you still insist on law....

You are definitely in the camp of subtle legalism.

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[:"blue"]Robert, if you can't see the difference between obedience seeking merit from obedience as a loving response to a loving & merciful God, then I can't help you. [/]

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Do you remember this statement?

"Not to see

the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves.

He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [EGW]

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[:"blue"]Is it your understanding from the above quote that even after coming to Jesus and has been forgiven, born again, that the believer is to continually loathe & abhor him/herself? [/]

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My problem with your conclusion is that you are failing to see that while it is true that all true believers do bear fruit

they are missing the mark, that is to say, they are never reaching the highest demands of God's Holy law.

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[:"blue"]I have repeatedly acknowledged the fact that we will never be able to meet the righteousness that the law demands FOR salvation. I have also repeatedly stated that we will CONTINUE to make mistakes as long as we dwell in this fallen body, but that we CAN by the God's grace & the Spirit dwelling in us, stop living or willfully/deliberately committing sin. [/]

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It was Christ life that answers the law. Even if I discount your sins until today - you are still not measuring up to His selfless life. Do you get it?

Rob

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[:"blue"]I understand it more than you know or give me credit for, Rob. I have never, nor will I ever claim, that my obedience answers the demands of the law to merit salvation. But when you begin to obey from a heart so grateful with love, even when it falls far short, God accepts it as fulfilling the spirit of the law, but NOT as merit or payment for what the law requires to merit salvation. That's how I understand what Paul means when he says, "Love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love fulfills the law." And that is how I understand what Jesus & John are saying when they claim that the believer stops sinning.

[/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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...what does it mean to you to have, "our old self...crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be DONE AWAY with, that we should

no longer

be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin." 6:6,7 NASB.

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When did Christ as mankind die? Approx. 2000 years ago. When He died, says Paul, "all died"! Our "old man" (our sinful life from Adam) was done away with "in Christ"!

"In Him" we have been freed from sin! The proof of this is that Christ took this glorified humanity to heaven. That's why Paul could say that God "raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus." [Eph 2:6 NASB] Paul goes on to say, "For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son...." [Col 1:13 NASB]

How can we be in heavenly places already???

Remember that Paul states that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." [1 Corinthians 15:50] So then, whatever was taken to heaven had to sinless!!!!

I know what you are going to say...."Robert, I am right here...how can I be in heaven?"

Well from where did you come - your mother? Let's look this one up:

• For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother’s womb.

  ...My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, [where, in your mother's womb? No, back further:] Skillfully wrought [:"red"]in the depths of the earth.[/] [Psalm 139:13,15 NASB]

You came from the earth - ground! What does that mean?

• God told Adam, "By the sweat of your face

  You shall eat bread, Till you return to the ground,

  Because from it you were taken...." [Gen 3:19 NASB]

What does all this mean? It means that you came from Adam....All of us came from Adam. Therefore all of us share one life - the fallen life of Adam! Hence we can say that we are bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh.

More later...it's bedtime!

[Gerr]

Not only did we corporately die with Jesus 2k yrs ago, Paul also positively teaches that the old man must be crucified & die with Him if we are to be raised up also in the likeness of His resurrection.

Rob, ponder what Paul means when he says, "How can we who died to sin live any longer in it?" Rom 6:2 NKJ. Or when he says, "But put on [clothe yourselves] Christ." Rom 13:14 NKJ. If you are still living in sin, then you cannot be free; you ARE still a slave of sin. When Christ sets the sinner free, he/she will be free indeed! You can't say you've put on Christ who was obedient to the law & still live a life of disobedience.

Gerry

[Robert]

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Not only did we corporately die with Jesus 2k yrs ago, Paul also positively teaches that the old man must be crucified & die with Him if we are to be raised up also in the likeness of His resurrection.

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Then our corporate salvation is nothing but good advice, it means nothing!!! IF I must [and that is O.C. language] fully die to sin [and I would if I could] then I am hopelessly lost. This you fail to understand.

Just look at the Rich Young ruler - He claimed to have kept the 10 commandments, yet we know Christ told him what true commandment keeping is really about -- total selflessness.

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Rob, ponder what Paul means when he says, "How can we who

died to sin

live any longer in it?" Rom 6:2 NKJ.

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Where did "we" die to sin? "In Christ"....Paul is speaking of our corporate death....What you are stressing [i.e., our Christian response] is brought out in verse 11....But first verse 10:

"The death he died [Christ as man], he died to sin once for all...."

What does that mean? Let me word this differently: During Christ's life, where did His greatest temptation occur?

A: The cross!

Christ was completely innocent....Even Pilate said, "I find no fault in Him." How would you like it if you were completely innocent and your own people mocked you; spate at you; flogged you and finally nailed you to a wooden cross completely naked so that you would eventually suffocate and die??? And to top this all off God forsakes you in your hour of need!

Wouldn’t you be tempted to come down from the cross if it was within your power? Well, guess what? It was within Christ's power to grab on to His divinity and come down of the cross and save Himself! That was an overwhelming temptation for Him.

Would you have passed that temptation (not me!)? Even more - what was at the heart of Christ’s temptation?

A: The preservation of self – i.e., the love of self.

Instead Christ choose to say goodbye to life (not for 3 days) but for eternity. He was willing to lay His life down for eternity so that His enemies could have His place in heaven. In other words Christ had to choose between saving Himself (and thus commit sin) or save His enemies instead.

The question is have you died to sin (the love of self) as did Christ?

A: Please remember 1 John 1:8…. The answer is NO! Does that mean we should have the attitude of let’s enjoy sin? Absolutely not! That is why Paul goes on to say,

“In the same way [as Christ said “no” to the love of self], count/consider/reckon yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.” It is the attitude – the mind set – the character that God looks at. God looks at the heart, not so much the performance.

Look at King David….Do you think he wanted to have an adulteress affair with Bathsheba? No, but his flesh did! Do you think he pre-planned to have her husband killed so that he could have her for himself? No...but that's where the flesh can take you….

Remember what Christ said, “The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak”? That is our predicament….So while the believer desires to live for Christ, he/she finds himself/herself falling into sin. Much more than that we are failing to live Christ’s selfless life. He never lived for self; we do it all the time.

[Gerr]

Since I am either not making myself clear or you can't understand what I am saying, then let's take some issues one by one.

We are agreed that we can never live a perfect life this side of heaven. We are agreed that we will continue to make mistakes & thus continue to sin. Against this reality is John's declaration that the believer who "abides in Him" will not/cannot continue to sin. Jesus commanded two people who received healing to "Go & sin no more."

Now, are Jesus & John telling the truth?

Gerry

[Robert]

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Jesus commanded two people who received healing to "Go & sin no more."

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Let's look at the issues in their context.

John 8:7 Jesus talking to the Pharisees: “If any one of you is without the sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

If you get a good Greek Bible, you will notice that the definite article "the" precedes the noun sin. "The sin" refers to adultery! Jesus wasn't saying go and stop all sinning....Jesus works with us where we are at....It takes some longer than others to get free of life long habits.

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"believers who "abides in Him" will not/cannot continue to sin.

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That phrase, "abides in Him" is the same as "walk in the Spirit"....When confronted with temptation, within & without, IF we "abide in Him" - IF we "walk in the Spirit" we can say "no" to ungodliness.

The problem is that sometimes we try to say "no" to temptation. Then again, sometimes we do not realize we are sinning. And sometimes our natures deceive us into sin.

Any one of these was possibilities was probably true with King David. How does the story go? Wasn't David on his balcony when saw a beautiful, nude woman bathing on some rooftop??? Why she was there is another topic (probably used of Satan?) Anyway, David looked....After that I don't know what happened. Maybe his good old flesh said, "It's not sin to look, after all you’re just admiring." Who knows? but we know the catastrophe that ensued.

We grow; we mature; we become more like Him.... That’s sanctification. It is experiencing what is already true of us in Christ.... Hence, we reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God....

Everyday when I pray one of the things I ask God to do is to save me from myself! And everyday it seems the flesh gets a hold on me....Not big things, but none the less sin. And everyday I tell God I confess for being a bad witness. Nevertheless I am growing....That's good news...

[Gerr]

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Jesus commanded two people who received healing to "Go & sin no more."

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Let's look at the issues in their context.

John 8:7 Jesus talking to the Pharisees: “If any one of you is without the sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

If you get a good Greek Bible, you will notice that the definite article "the" precedes the noun sin. "The sin" refers to adultery!

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[:"blue"]Rob, if by the grace of God you can stop breaking one of His commandments, by the same grace you should be able to stop breaking the rest! [/]

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Jesus wasn't saying go and stop all sinning....

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[:"blue"]Are you saying that Jesus wants you to stop fornicating or committing adultery but not murder, bearing false witness or having other gods? [/]

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Jesus works with us where we are at....It takes some longer than others to get free of life long habits.

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[:"blue"]And who knows more about the law of inertia than the One who made it? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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"believers who "abides in Him" will not/cannot continue to sin.

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That phrase, "abides in Him" is the same as "walk in the Spirit"....When confronted with temptation, within & without, IF we "abide in Him" - IF we "walk in the Spirit" we can say "no" to ungodliness.

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[:"blue"]THAT is the promise. So my daily work is to make sure I am connected to Him, daily, hourly, minute by minute. Peter counsels us to be sober & vigilant, for the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour. And Jesus' warning to His sleepy disciples was, "Watch & pray..."

[:"red"]"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say, "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ." Titus 2:11-13 NIV. [/] [/]

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The problem is that sometimes we try to say "no" to temptation. Then again, sometimes we do not realize we are sinning. And sometimes our natures deceive us into sin.

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[:"blue"]Rob, I have told you over & over & over again, that our God is not so unjust as to cast us off because we make inadvertent mistakes. Would you as a father, spank your toddler who is just beginning to walk, because the child stumbles while coming to you when you called him/her? [/]

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Any one of these was possibilities was probably true with King David. How does the story go? Wasn't David on his balcony when saw a beautiful, nude woman bathing on some rooftop??? Why she was there is another topic (probably used of Satan?) Anyway, David looked....After that I don't know what happened. Maybe his good old flesh said, "It's not sin to look, after all you’re just admiring." Who knows? but we know the catastrophe that ensued.

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[:"blue"]The reflexive hormone-controlled reaction David had when he saw a beautiful naked woman, IMHO, was not the sin he was condemned for. But after he had time to think about it, and still sent his servants to fetch the woman, then that became a willful/deliberate act. That, I believe, is when he broke the commandment for which he was charged. [/]

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We grow; we mature; we become more like Him.... That’s sanctification.

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[:"blue"]Agreed!!! [/]

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It is experiencing what is already true of us in Christ

.... Hence, we reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God....

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[:"blue"]God would be a liar if He pronounced someone righteous [justifies], someone who continues to commit acts of rebellion against His gov't.

[:"red"]"For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; [/]but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live." [:"red"]Rom 8:13 NASB. [/] [/]

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Everyday when I pray one of the things I ask God to do is to save me from myself! And everyday it seems the flesh gets a hold on me....Not big things, but none the less sin. And everyday I tell God I confess for being a bad witness. Nevertheless I am growing....That's good news...

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[:"blue"]"God does not deal with us as finite men deal with one another. His thoughts are thoughts of mercy, love, and tenderest compassion. He says, 'Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.'" Keys to Happiness (SC)p. 24.

"There are two errors against which the children of God - particularly those who have just come to trust in His grace - especially need to guard. The first, already dwelt upon, is that of looking to their own works, trusting to anything then can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith, that can make us holy.

The opposite and no less dangerous error is, that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption.

But notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I wioll write them." Heb 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience - the service and allegiance of love - is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the Scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 Jn 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience.

We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God...." Ibid p. 28

There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ, and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bown down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God." Ibid, p. 30,31 [/]

Gerry

[bevin]

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Rob, if by the grace of God you can stop breaking one of His commandments, by the same grace you should be able to stop breaking the rest!

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Agreed.

Unfortunately you can't stop breaking even one of them.

Fortunately Jesus provided an alternative path for salvation.

/Bevin