Have the demands of God's holy law been made void?

March 9, 2005

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Nothing about the first four commandments of the moral law, why?

Under the New Covenant "faith" in Christ fulfills the first four. As a result the believer begins to reflect Christ....Not that we are perfectly reflecting Him, rather it is something we aim for through faith. Our eyes are on Christ and His matchless love. That's what I believe it means by the law of Christ.

Read Romans 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their heart....

You must remember that the Gentiles had no knowledge of God. Those who accepted God did so through what was made (see Romans 1:20)....They only knew that something outside of themselves was responsible for the creation of this world. They had no idea or reference to the 7th-day Sabbath....They still had idols (see Acts 17:23-26)

My point is that the law written on the heart is related to our neighbors. No one needs to tell you've done wrong if you kill or commit adultery....We naturally know after conversion. Therefore it is the PRINICIPLE of the last six commandments that are written on the heart!

March 10, 2005

I find your answer confusing. Of course David cannot stop sinning. On the other hand, Christ cannot sin. If Christ is in me, then I cannot sin. However, He will stay in me only on long as I want Him to. I do not agree that we are freed in stages. Freedom comes all at once. What occurs in states is not our freedom, but the character transformation by the Holy Spirit. But we belong to Christ during this entire experience.

You seem to confuse justification and sanctification. Justification delivers us from sin, Satan, and slavery.

Sanctification is the process of recreating the character of Christ in us.

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Now when we do that we will make progress, but please do not forget that we are missing the mark, we are falling short. That means we are never fully measuring up…never!

Of course not! Our salvation never depends on OUR performance. It depends on us allowing Christ to perform in us. I see this as a non-issue.

Here are the dictionary definitions for obedience (law keeping):

- compliance

- submission

- conforming to commands or authority

- yeilding willingly to another person or law

- allowing someone else to control your actions

All of these definitions do not tell us why one would comply or submit, even if willingly. Am I afraid of the consequences if I do not conform? Do I want to maintain my reputation? Do I obey because I will gain something for obeying?

God's law = God's character = love for God and everyone and everything else. So obedience could be defined as loving others as we used to love ourselves.

True love has no barriers. Selfishness (all sins come under this heading) puts up many barriers to prevent healthy, satisifying relationships. Sin disrupts. Love brings peace between people. Sin works to tear down and destroy. Love works to build up and give life.

Obedience is always other centered. Our own salvation comes to us as a gift. It includes the work Jesus did for us on earth and His death and resurrection. Also included is the work the Holy Spirit does in us to recreate us to be able to love as God loves. Obedience, then, is naturally using this love to motivate us to do all we can to help and bless others.

Obedience is never forced by God. He accepts no service prompted by fear.

God has a large family. He loves bringing beings into existence. What He wants from us is to live in peace with the entire universe. He wants us to care for and love all our brothers and sisters in close, intimate relationships.

"To Him nothing was without purpose. The sports of the child, the toils of the man, life's pleasures and cares and pains, all were means to the end--the revelation of God for the uplifting of humanity." {Ed 82.5}

Your friend,

Dave M

March 10, 2005

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If Christ is in me, then I cannot sin....I do not agree that we are freed in stages. Freedom comes all at once.

Remember 1 John 1:8???

Rob

March 10, 2005

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Therefore "The law of Christ" does not refer to the 10 commandments, although there are some similarities.

[:"red"] "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love." [/] John 15:10 NKJV

How does one keep commandments the same, that are not the same?

Lift Jesus up!!

March 10, 2005

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Therefore "The law of Christ" does not refer to the 10 commandments, although there are some similarities.

"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love." John 15:10 NKJV

How does one keep commandments the same, that are not the same?

Lift Jesus up!!

Lift up Jesus, huh? It sounds like you are lifting up the law!?!

Anyway, to answer your question...of what commands is Christ speaking? Context:

Command # 1] "Abide in Me, and I in you."

Command # 2] “This is My command, that you love one another, like I have loved you."

Then He makes a profound statement:

“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."

Jesus knows and understands our limited love [hence we fall short of God's love]! You see you might die for a good friend, but Jesus was willing to lay down His life for eternity so that His enemies could take His place in heaven!!!!

If you don't buy this argument go to Romans 5:6

For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a just man [i.e., a fair man]; though perhaps for a good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But [in complete contrast to our human love] God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.....10 while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God....

March 10, 2005

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"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love." John 15:10 NKJV

How does one keep commandments the same, that are not the same?

>>>>LHC, I think one way of thinking about all this is to realize that (1) Jesus was a Jew and born into and raised as a Jew. The Law of MOses was made for Jews and nobody else. Christ, being a Jew, and NOT YET HAVING MADE HIS SACRIFICE ON THE CROSS, was obligated to keep the Old Covenant. He was living in what is still the Mosaic Era that would not cease until His death and resurrection----maybe????? I am a gentile and have never been knowingly a Jew. The Law of Moses was NOT given to the gentiles, nor meant for them!!

Point (2)--If one keeps reading John 15, the next verses say this, "And my command is this: love each other as I have loved you........This is my command [once again!]Love each other."

(3)---Paul has told us that if we keep any of the law we must keep it all. There is no division of 'the Law' into moral and ceremonial!! This is an erroneous conception as far as Biblical comments are concerned. If one insists on a partition of 'the Law', then, the weekly Sabbath is actually one of the ceremonial days as is shown in Lev 23.

(4)---If 'the Law' is 'done away', 'faded', 'has no glory', 'abolished' as it says in 2Cor 3----that means in 'authority' for the 'believer, the Christian, we find in further study and reading that it is 'replaced' by Christ's Law which is an abbreviation for loving God and man, and believing that He was/is the Son of God, raised from death, and will come back again to redeem His own, we will be saved. Believing in this is what 'obeying the Gospel' is. And the gospel as outlined in the NT is replete with the goal/guides as to how we should strive to live as humans on this planet in relationship to God and to each other.(See Col 3)

It is essential in one's mental accession to this idea that one realize 'the Law of Moses' is NOT Christ's Law and that is very hard for a traditional SDA to grab hold of and embrace mentally due to our long time programming into interpreting the Bible through the mind of Ellen White. I have stated, in many posts, my level of regard for Ellen White--I hope I don't have to go into that again. Some people attempt to put into my mouth their explanation of my relationship to Ellen White. That is wrong and it is not fair to either her or me. It usually means to me that those people don't know either Ellen White OR the Bible very well---a very common situation in the pews of Adventism, I've discovered. I WAS one of those prior to the 1970's--still don't know enough, that's for sure.

Ben

March 11, 2005

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Of course David cannot stop sinning. On the other hand, Christ cannot sin. If Christ is in me, then I cannot sin.

[:"blue"]That is the truth & power of the gospel. Thanks. [/]

Gerry

March 11, 2005

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The Law of MOses was made for Jews and nobody else.

[:"blue"]It is written:

[:"red"]"One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you." Ex 12:47 NKJ.

"And if a stranger dwells with you, or whoever is among you throughout your generations, and would present an offering made by fire, a sweet aroma to the LORD, just as you do, so shall he do. One ordinance shall be for you of the assembly AND for the stranger who dwells with you, an ordinance forever throughout your generations; [:"blue"]as you are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. [/]ONE LAW and ONE CUSTOM shall be for you and for the stranger who dwells with you." Num 15:14-16 NKJ[/] [/]

Gerry

March 11, 2005

And your point is------?

The 'stranger WITHIN thy gates'-----does not apply to the other peoples of the world OUTSIDE the gates of the Jew.

Have you read this: "He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. HE HAS DONE THIS FOR NO OTHER NATION; THEY DO NOT KNOW HIS LAWS. Praise the Lord."--Ps 147 There are other comments saying similarly. Look them up.

Don't let that 'veil' cover your heart.--2Cor 3. The NT is our Authourity now---the OT is not our Authority now! Jesus fulfilled "..the Law and the Prophets". Not one jot or title will away UNTIL all be fulfilled. "ALL" was fulfilled when He was resurrected. It is agreed by Biblical scholars that the book of Matthew was written specifically to the Jews of his time. He has to be a little careful extolling the MAJOR changes coming to their long established belief and trust in that the Old Covenant Laws would 'save' them. Keeping on with reading the NT opens up one's mind to what has and will happen.

"The Law did not encourage obedience; it merely magnified disobedience. The Law indicated the sickness; grace brought about the cure!"--Yancey

Ben

March 11, 2005

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Remember 1 John 1:8???

I Jn 1:6-10

6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. (NIV)

You have an apparent contradiction in these verses. On the one hand, all of us are sinners. IF we claim not to be sinners, we are lying.

On the other hand, He promises to purify us from all unrighteousness.

I Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (KJV)

How do we solve this delimma? Is a Christian sinless or sinful? I often here people say, "I sin every day." Yet the text plainly says that those who are born again cannot sin.

The key word in the first text is "fellowship". Since Christ cannot sin, we will not sin as long as we are fellowshiping with Him. Unless we delvelop a relationship with Christ, we are sinners. Christ will not force Himelf on us. I can walk with Him (who is light) today. But tomorrow I may get out of bed and decide to go it alone.

Maybe we need a definition of sin. Sin is choosing to separate from God, the source of life. We choose to live our lives without God. Of course this is impossible because apart from God, we have no life.

Sin is the opposite of love. It destroys, creates damage, hates, uses other people. It leaves ruin and death wherever it goes.

Your friend,

Dave M

March 11, 2005

There is a fair amount of hyperbole in the Bible including the NT. Remember it is being written by men---nothing in the Bible anywhere other than perhaps the Tablets of Stone at Sinai that are written or quoted perfectly by men. One has to be perceptive and have perspicacity--which I wish i had a lot more of.

Every body all the time as long as he lives is never without making mistakes in one way or another whether he believes in God and His Son and that He was raised from death, whether he loves God and his fellow men or not! If we are to ever in this life be 'without sin' it is a Gift. We are declared what we are NOT! He becomes what we ARE that we might become like HIM. But this is the way of belief, faith and trust--not the way of humanly observed literalness. Nobody keeps any law perfectly, ever, in action, intent and thought! --in this life, that is!

Ben

March 11, 2005

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And your point is------?

[:"blue"]My point is that God is NO respecter of persons. What's good for the Jew is good for the Bens & Gerrys of the world! [/]

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The 'stranger WITHIN thy gates'-----does not apply to the other peoples of the world OUTSIDE the gates of the Jew.

[:"blue"]Soooo, the Gentile who becomes a believer only obeys the law when he is with Jews, but once he is outside his gates, he the believing Gentile is free to live like a Gentile? Amazing bit of reasoning!!! [/]

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Have you read this: "He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. HE HAS DONE THIS FOR NO OTHER NATION; THEY DO NOT KNOW HIS LAWS. Praise the Lord."--Ps 147 There are other comments saying similarly. Look them up.

[:"red"] "By your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed." Gen 26:4 NASB.

[:"blue"]And how were they to bless the rest of the world except to share their knowledge of God which was the Torah? [:"red"]"See, I have taught you statutes and judgments just as the LORD my God commanded me, .... for that is your wisdom & your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes and say, 'Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.'" Dt 4:5,6 NASB. [/]

But what did the Israelites do? They thought as you are thinking now, i.e. that the law was meant only for them. [/]

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Don't let that 'veil' cover your heart.--2Cor 3. The NT is our Authourity now---the OT is not our Authority now! Jesus fulfilled "..the Law and the Prophets". Not one jot or title will away UNTIL all be fulfilled. "ALL" was fulfilled when He was resurrected. It is agreed by Biblical scholars that the book of Matthew was written specifically to the Jews of his time. He has to be a little careful extolling the MAJOR changes coming to their long established belief and trust in that the Old Covenant Laws would 'save' them. Keeping on with reading the NT opens up one's mind to what has and will happen.

[:"blue"]You might also ask yourself if the veil may not be over your eyes?

When Jesus preached, where did His message & authority come from? After His resurrection, how did He prove that His passion & resurrection was all planned? When He was tempted & confronted by the devil, where did He get his strength from? It was of course the Torah! That body of divine instructions you are desperately trying to get rid off!

On the day of Pentecost when Peter got up to preach, did he preach from the KJV or NJB new testament? Would you believe he preached from one of the minor prophets? And the Psalms? See Acts 2.

And when Peter preached again in Acts 3, where was his authority from? Of course, the Torah again!

And when Stephen preached his powerful sermon, out of what did he preach from? From the NT KJV? NJB? NASB? Noooooooo! But of course from the OT that you say no longer applies! See Acts 6,7.

When Philip shared the Good News with the Ethiopian, guess what book preached from? Why of course the OT that you say has been abolished! See Acts 8.

When dissension arose among the disciples about the gospel that Paul & Barnabas were preaching, how did they settle the matter? Why of course by quoting from the OT! Read what James had to say in Acts 15.

And when Paul gave his parting message when he was in Rome, what was his source material? Why of course, "both the Law of Moses & from the Prophets," & Isaiah. See Acts 28:23,25.

Read how many times Paul refer to the OT in his magnum opus his letter to the Romans. Or how many times he quotes the OT in his letter to the Corinthians. Or to the rest of his letters!!!

[/]

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"The Law did not encourage obedience; it merely magnified disobedience. The Law indicated the sickness; grace brought about the cure!"--Yancey

Ben

[:"blue"]And what was the cure that Grace brought to the disobedient? Take the whole standard away, as Robert advocates? Or take the whole Torah & the whole OT away including the 10c but reinstitute 9/10 & leave out the 4th because it is Jewish as you have been reiterating over & over again?

The cure? [:"red"]"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches US to say "NO" to ungodliness [disobedience] and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright [obedient living] & godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ..." Titus 2:11-13 NIV. [/] [/]

Gerry

March 11, 2005

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Maybe we need a definition of sin.

The essence of sin is self-love, period! If you are not loving your neighbor as you naturally love yourself, then you are sinning!

Now I know you won't buy this....Most say, "No, we must love ourselves first, then we can learn to love our neighbors."

This might sound legitimate, but it is a lie! In fact it is Satanic! However, instead of arguing the point I'll do what Paul finally did after getting nowhere with the Greeks....Do you know what he decided? Simply this:

I am determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

Why did Paul look to the cross? Because it was there that he saw genuine selfless, agape love. It was there that the spirit of the law was fulfilled....It was there where we see the Son of Man giving up not only the riches of heaven for eternity, but also giving up His Deity....In other words the cross proved that Jesus loves His enemies more than Himself.

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“The Saviour lived not to please Himself. In His life there was not trace of selfishness. Though in a world that He himself had created, He claimed no part of it as His home. "Foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests," He said; "but the Son of man hath not where to lay His head." [EGW]

So if you want to continue to deceive yourself that you are actually "cleansed from all unrighteousness" - i.e., that you are actually sinless, then I ask you to look to the cross!!!! When Paul did this he counted all his attainments (including his law-keeping) as dung! [see Phil. chapter 3]

I for one am sick and tired of Adventists and their self-righteous attitude….None of us are “keeping the law”! Oh yes, we keep parts of it….We might even keep the letter of the law, but none of us are “keeping the law” as did Christ. For one He never sinned. For seconds He lived a life free from “self” and therefore He kept the whole law (both the spirit and the letter)

If you desire to refute this and defend your righteousness, then I ask you to do it in the light of the cross of Christ….

Let me leave you something to ponder:

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete [sinful, although growing], his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word. In amazement he hears the message, "Ye are complete in Him." Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself….”

March 11, 2005

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The Law of MOses was made for Jews and nobody else.

"ONE LAW and ONE CUSTOM shall be for you and for the stranger who dwells with you."

Ben, here Gerry is right....The law wasn't just for the Jews, it was for all men. Yes, the Jews entered the O.C. - yes the law was given them, but this doesn't mean it is just for the Jews. The law, says Paul, condemns all men! (See Rom 3:19,20)

March 12, 2005

A Christian has two natures. First, the one he was born with. Second, the new one the Holy Spirit rereacted. No where did I say I or anyone else is sinless. AS LONG AS Christ is in me, my new nature is in control. It can do the biddings of the Holy Spirit. But I am always free to open the car door and ask Jesus to get out. Or at the minimum, ask Him to let me drive. In either case, He will allow me the freedom of choice to carry out what I want. He is not pushy. Then the old sinful nature is back in control.

MY SALVATION is a GIFT FROM BEGINNING TO END. It is the HOly Spirit's work to install in me the character of Christ. Any effort I make toward my own salvation will only interfer with the work Christ wants to do in me. My part is to be in a "yes, Lord" frame of mind.

"All the varied capabilities that men possess--of mind and soul and body--are given them by God, to be so employed as to reach the highest possible degree of excellence. But this cannot be a selfish and exclusive culture; [:"red"] for the character of God, whose likeness we are to receive, is benevolence and love. [/] Every faculty, every attribute, with which the Creator has endowed us is to be employed for His glory and for the uplifting of our fellow men. And in this employment is found its purest, noblest, and happiest exercise." {PP 595.3}

Christ's whole purpose in coming to earth was to demostrate to us the revelation of the character of God. Humanity can only be restored to the original purpose God intended for the race through this knowledge of the character of God.

As we receive the character of God through the Holy Spirit, as we are recreated, then we will obey; that is, we will work for the restoring in others of God's character. We call this witnessing. So obedience could be defined as witnessing to others in character and deed the true character of God. With Christ in the heart, we do not even work on witnessing. We will be so filled with the love of God that it will naturally overflow into the lives of others.

Your friend,

Dave M

March 12, 2005

Robert (and Gerry) speak to the two text I gave you----Ps 147 and Deut 5.

Here are some more-----Ezra 9--"[they intermarried]and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them." 4th commandment, "nor the alien within thy gates". Ex 33: "What else will distinguish me and your people from all other people on the face of the earth?" Lev 16: "Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites." [no mention of atonement for the sins of the gentiles---for they did NOT have the Law!!! If you say they did I doubt your familiarity with the Bible.]

Lev 19: "The native-born and teh aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled." [can you see the distinction between the gentiles and the Jews. Those gentiles who lived with the Jews must obey the laws while they were there---it doesn't say they had to believe in their hearts---though we know some did.] Lev 20: "I am the Lord your God, who has set you apart from the nations."

Deut 4: "And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I setting befre you today/" (same chapter) "Amd the Lord directed me at that time to teach you the decrees and laws you are to follow in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess." [of the gentiles across the Jordan already had those laws from God why would he make such a firm statement for them when they crossed into the land? It is because the gentiles didn't have 'the Law'] [cont in Deut 4]

"Has any other people heard the voice of God speaking out of fire, as you have...Has any god ever tried to take for himself one nation our of another nation?" [also]"This is the law Moses set before the Israelites. These are the stipulations, decrees, and laws Moses gave them WHEN they came out of Egypt and were in the valley near Beth Peor."

Ps 135: "For the Lord has chosen Jacob to be his own, Israel to be his treasured possession."

This is just a few--I've skipped others--and I;m only in Psalms---there are tens of others.

I think you fellows are getting your information from another source. Can't you just read the 5 books of MOses alone and see that God chose Israel and He did NOT choose any other nation, group, race or whatever? Even Paul said the gentiles did not have 'the Law'.

Where do you get the idea that God chose His ways for the gentiles of the world anywhere in the OT? Yes, in a place or two He dis predict that Christ would take the message to the gentiles---but it didn't happen until Christ came.

Ben

March 12, 2005

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It is written:

"One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you." Ex 12:47 NKJ.

"And if a stranger dwells with you, or whoever is among you throughout your generations, and would present an offering made by fire, a sweet aroma to the LORD, just as you do, so shall he do. One ordinance shall be for you of the assembly AND for the stranger who dwells with you, an ordinance forever throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. ONE LAW and ONE CUSTOM shall be for you and for the stranger who dwells with you." Num 15:14-16 NKJ

Gerry

>>>>Yes, indeed, while the gentile was within the camp or 'gate' they had to obey the Jewish laws. It did not apply NOR WAS THE LAW GIVEN OR DID IT APPLY to the Gentiles OUTSIDE THE CAMP!! Carefully read the Torah once again watching the context

Ben.

March 12, 2005

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"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love." John 15:10 NKJV

How does one keep commandments the same, that are not the same?

>>>>LHC, I think one way of thinking about all this is to realize that (1) Jesus was a Jew and born into and raised as a Jew. The Law of MOses was made for Jews and nobody else. Christ, being a Jew...

Since this thread is specifically about the Law, is it then your conclusion that God (the Father) decided some of the 10C that were given were to be treated as for man as a whole, while others of the Ten were just for the Jews? Or did Jesus decide that, after He came to this earth to 'straighten things out', to identify which commandments were for the Jews only while others were to be understood as for all of mankind.

[:"red"] "And Jesus said to them, The Sabbath was made on account and for the sake of man, not man for the Sabbath" [/] Mark 2:27 AMP

It would be helpful if you gave your answer within a Scripture principle.

And also, trying myself to understand where you're building your hypothesis from, of the destruction of the TenC, in which if the alternative behavior is accepted for each one of the Ten, it would seem to lead to total anarchy.

And why did the disciples many years after the life of Jesus on this earth in the flesh, hold the commandments up as worthy to be emulated? How can one be guilty of breaking a Law that is no longer in existence?

[:"red"] "If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. " [/] James 2:8,10-12 NASB emph theirs

By the way, does this verse mean anything to you?

[:"red"] "A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. " [/] Rom 2:28

Lit Jesus up!!

March 12, 2005

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My point is that God is NO respecter of persons. What's good for the Jew is good for the Bens & Gerrys of the world!

>>>May I gently disagree? In the time of the OT, God WAS a 'respecter' of persons. He CHOSE Israel and He did NOT CHOOSE those outside of the Israel race UNLESS they came into it by adoption or marriage and the males were circumcised, and other signs were kept and subscribed to----yes, there were converts--Ruth, for example. They became legally Jews and their offspring were considered Jews. --but IN GENERAL 'the Law' did not apply outside the boundaries of the land Israel occupied. If Jews dispersed to other lands they probably personally followed 'the Law' but the land they were dispersed to did not follow it.

Many Jews were devout though they had dispersed into other national boundaries. But 'the Law' NEVER was given to or subscribed to by any other nation as far as we can tell from the Bible.

God chose against, pardon me, the nonJewish peoples during the times of the Isrealites. Those that got in the way of the Jews were to have been totally destroyed. (It sounds cruel--my wife has a real hard time with that.)

It was only after Christ died and was resurrected that the message of true salvation through Christ was open to the gentiles at large--- to all peoples of the world.

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Soooo, the Gentile who becomes a believer only obeys the law when he is with Jews, but once he is outside his gates, he the believing Gentile is free to live like a Gentile? Amazing bit of reasoning!!!

>>>>The gentile who became a believer and dwelt with the people and who took upon himself or was forced to obey all the signs of being a Jew had to obey all 'the Law'. The Bible doesn't say anything about the gentile who left the camp of Israel to live again outside the camp. I'm not 'reasoning', Gerry, I am saying what the Bible says and not what any other source may have said. I did not invent or direct God to CHOOSE only the Israelites as His people. He did it on His own!

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But what did the Israelites do? They thought as you are thinking now, i.e. that the law was meant only for them.

>>>Go back and find me a text or reference that in Jewish times 'the Law' was given to another nation.

You are misinterpreting the text that you gave above this quote.

When the gentile was inside the camp he had to obey 'the Law'. Nothing is said pro or con what he was to do 'outside' the camp. We are talking OT writings in re; this issue. I don't recall any comment from the OT about this. However, Paul in Rom 3 says the gentile did not have the law. Rom 2:14 says outright---the gentile did not have the law!--- because he worked for the Jew family didn't mean he was given the Law. He was simply required to observe 'the Law' of his employer or master WHILE he was in their employ or living with them. This has nothing to do with 'the Law' being given to the gentiles generally.

The gentiles apparently knew by the nature of having human DNA that it was not good to lie, cheat, steal, kill, etc. Most animals know enough not to eat one another. Most humans know how to act whether or not they believe in 'the Law'. Atheists I know are very nice people and abide by decency impulses just because they are human. Gentiles who do not have 'the Law' also have social and communal laws that benefit the peace and tranquility of their community

You don't have to believe in God to know from your humanness and from your brothers that you don't do certain 'bad' things. "The Law" was written for and given to the Israelites, the Jews. It was not written or given to any other race. If you say it does, I do not agree with your reading at all.

Quote:

You might also ask yourself if the veil may not be over your eyes?