Have the demands of God's holy law been made void?

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Any one of these was possibilities was probably true with King David. How does the story go? Wasn't David on his balcony when saw a beautiful, nude woman bathing on some rooftop??? Why she was there is another topic (probably used of Satan?) Anyway, David looked....After that I don't know what happened. Maybe his good old flesh said, "It's not sin to look, after all you’re just admiring." Who knows? but we know the catastrophe that ensued.

---

The reflexive hormone-controlled reaction David had when he saw a beautiful naked woman, IMHO, was not the sin he was condemned for. But after he had time to think about it, and still sent his servants to fetch the woman, then that became a willful/deliberate act. That, I believe, is when he broke the commandment for which he was charged. [/]

---

That argument is being explored on another thread. Remember that Lucifer never touched Christ. He hated Him, but He never technically murdered him!

Sin begins when the flesh takes hold of the mind. Any man that is gazing at a nude woman has one thing in mind (and it isn't admiring her eyes). David sinned when he didn't turn away. Everything else that followed was the result of that one sin.

Gerry, the law doesn't distinguish between sins as you do. It doesn't say that one sin is intentional and that another is not. In fact it states that anything outside perfection is sin!

Gerry you hold up the letter of the law, but you fail to recognize its spirit. Again, look at Christ's life especially from Gethsemane to the cross. He did more than just keep the letter, he kept the spirit. He loved His enemies more than himself. He was willing to give everything up so that his murderers might take His place.

You see if Christ was willing to give up everything so that His enemies might have the best, then you should do the same! Do you? Test yourself:

• “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, [how?] [:"red"]do good to those who hate you[/],

  bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

  If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.

  Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.

  Do to others as you would have them do to you.

  “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full.

  But love your enemies, do good to them [how?]: lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. [Luke 6:27-36 NIV]

[Gerr]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Rob, if by the grace of God you can stop breaking one of His commandments, by the same grace you should be able to stop breaking the rest!

---

Agreed.

Unfortunately you can't stop breaking even one of them.

Fortunately Jesus provided an alternative path for salvation.

/Bevin

---

[:"blue"]"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." 1 Jn 3:6 NIV

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God." 1 Jn 3:9 NIV [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

---

Sin begins when the flesh takes hold of the mind. Any man that is gazing at a nude woman has one thing in mind (and it isn't admiring her eyes). David sinned when he didn't turn away. Everything else that followed was the result of that one sin.

Gerry, the law doesn't distinguish between sins as you do. It doesn't say that one sin is intentional and that another is not. In fact it states that anything outside perfection is sin!

---

[:"blue"]The law cannot read intent, but God can. If human courts of law can distinguish between 1st & 2nd degree murder & your god cannot tell the difference between inadvertent from willful/deliberate disobedience, then you have made man more righteous than God! [/]

Quote:

---

Gerry you hold up the letter of the law, but you fail to recognize its spirit. Again, look at Christ's life especially from Gethsemane to the cross. He did more than just keep the letter, he kept the spirit.

He loved His enemies more than himself.

He was willing to give everything up so that his murderers might take His place.

---

[:"blue"]Rob, I wish you could see that it is you who is failing to see that when a believer loves, albeit imperfectly, he/she is fulfilling the spirit of the law! That is what Paul is saying in Rom 13:8,10. You have been charging me with subtle & overt legalism, but can't you see that it is your theology that wants its last ounce of flesh??? The ultimate in legalism??? It is no wonder that you keep insisting that God keeps the law away from the believer, otherwise He would zap everyone whether the sin they commit is willful/deliberate or inadvertent!!!

"All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin..." 1 Jn 5:17,18 NIV

You who tried to define sin in another thread, the big Sin as opposed the the little sin(s), the latter being the acts done as a result of living apart from God (the big Sin?), are you now failing to see the difference?[/]

Gerry

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Gerry you hold up the letter of the law, but you fail to recognize its spirit.

Again, look at Christ's life especially from Gethsemane to the cross. He did more than just keep the letter, he kept the spirit.

He loved His enemies more than himself. [:"red"] He was willing to give everything up so that his murderers might take His place.[/]

---

Rob, I wish you could see that it is you who is failing to see that when a believer loves, albeit imperfectly, he/she is fulfilling the spirit of the law! That is what Paul is saying in Rom 13:8,10.

---

Let's look at Romans 13:8-10

"He who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. [What law?] For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.

You state that "albeit imperfectly" believers "fulfill the law." If I don't speed in my car, but fail to wear the seatbelts - I have, albeit imperfectly, fulfilled the law. Will the police officer still give me a ticket? Yes....

You state that the believer is "under the law" - that he has an obligation to keep it. If I do not kill, steal and desire my neighbors goodies yet fail to love my neighbor as I love myself then isn't God [the ultimate police officer] going to have to give me a ticket (condemn me)?

But if I am not "under law" (as the Bible teaches) then there's no condemnation if my heart is right and my faith is "in Christ"! Look how Paul is failing to keep the spirit of God's law in Romans 7:15....The context reveals that he is failing to keep the spirit of the 10th commandment [see Romans 7:7-11]. In other places he defines the spirit of the 10th as, "love is not self-seeking."

Further more Paul here mentions nothing of the first 4 commandments in your ref. to Romans chapter 13.... In fact in Gal 5:14 Paul states that, "the entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Again nothing of the first four commandments!

So then, by your own conclusion, I have fulfilled the law if I basically keep the letter of the last 6 commandments! Therefore Sabbath keeping is out! Taking God's name in vain is out! Not having other God's is out.... etc....

See what kind of theology your conclusion produces? If you want to know what Paul means in Romans 13 then go to Romans 2:14,15 -- "When Gentiles who do not have the Law [Torah] do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts...." In other words they are reflecting some (not all) of God's attributes because of their faith-relation! There is a change, but neither they nor you are fulfilling the law as Christ did! Christ kept the spirit of the law, not just a few commands as you and I do....

That is why Paul warns against those believers (such as yourself) who insist on keeping the law as means to heaven.

You have stated this isn’t so, but you contradict yourself! You say, “I don’t keep the law to be saved, I keep it because I am saved.” Well guess what, you are keeping it imperfectly…therefore (according to your own theology) you must not be saved because saved believers keep the law!

Now what is that warning from Paul against such teachings? “I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [as a means of salvation – see Acts 15:1,5] that he is bound to keep the whole law.”

In other words Gerry, if you tell me I must keep this law or that, then according to Paul you must keep it all!!! Not only are you not to steal, kill, covet (etc.), but you must also love your neighbor in the same way as you naturally love yourself!!!

Yes encourage growing believers to make the law a standard of Christian conduct, but please do not place them “under law” because the law doesn’t say, “If you keep part of me I’ll be happy!” No, it says “keep all of me and I’ll be satisfied.”

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

---

Have the demands of God's holy law been made void?

---

This is like asking the question, 'Have you stopped beating your wife yet?' It makes an assumption that, if not true, has no way of being answered without incriminating one's self.

In the first place God's holy Law does not demand if it is to be consistent with God's character.

[:"red"] "...God is love... " [/] 1 John 4:16 NKJV

[:"red"] "...Love does not demand its own way... " [/] 1 Cor 13:4

[:"red"] "Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. " [/]

Romans 13:10 NKJV

Any of the Law that is disregarded in personal conduct, though one may freely choose that option, does harm to others. That does not void the Law, only separates the individual who chooses that option from the Lifegiver.

[:"red"] "He who covers and forgives an offense seeks love, but he who repeats or harps on a matter separates even close friends." [/] Proverbs 17:9 AMP

Lift Jesus up!!

[Gerr]

Since you dodged the question, let me ask you again.

Reality of our experience: We continue to make mistakes.

Reality of God's word: "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is NOT a child of God; neither is anyone who does not love his brother." 1 Jn 3:6,9,10 NIV.

So, please reconcile the two.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

---

Yes encourage growing believers to make the law a standard of Christian conduct, but please do not place them “under law” because the law doesn’t say, “If you keep part of me I’ll be happy!” No, it says “keep all of me and I’ll be satisfied.”

---

[:"blue"]You claim the law has not been done away with. Good!!!

You want to encourage believers to use the law as the standard of Christian conduct. Excellent!!!

But yet you claim that since believers are not under that standard, therefore they have no need to obey it! Tell me how logical that is.

[/]

[Gerr]

Quote:

---

Yes encourage growing believers to make the law a standard of Christian conduct, but please do not place them “under law” because the law doesn’t say, “If you keep part of me I’ll be happy!” No, it says “keep all of me and I’ll be satisfied.”

---

[:"blue"] "Under law" as a MEANS to salvation? NEVER!!! "Under law" as the standard of conduct? Of course!!! Ever heard of any gov't on earth that has laws but need not be enforced? You claim God as an eternal law, yet does not apply to His citizens? Amazing! Simply amazing! [/]

Gerry

[benherndon]

You will never 'give up', will you Gerry?

YOU do NOT keep 'the Law' because if you kept the commandment you wouldn't just close your office on Sabbath, you would also not do any but the most urgent medical care---and routine rounds on Sabbath is not necessarily urgent so much that it couldn't wait until after sundown. This is gross hypocrisy, IMO, and I've read 'the commandments' many times & know what it says as well as you.

Also you never define 'sin' other than to say it is breaking of 'the Law' or by saying that the 'wages of sin is death!'---you usually forget to add the latter part of the verse that says, "BUT the Gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE!!"

And regardless of comments otherwise if it were not for the Sabbath law and EGW's 'prophetic status' the Adventists would be no different than any other Christian denomination in its teachings.

So the problem that keeps Adventists from being part of the big majority of Christians are those two issues. Well, Sr. White said to get all 'doctrines and reproofs' directly from the Bible alone---so she herself cancels out our use of her 'authority' over interpretation of the Bible.

The other problem is that you firmly refuse to realize the message of Christ AND Paul and other NT writers that 'the Law' applies only to the nonbeliever, the murderer, the really bad guy who shows from his acts and thoughts that he is NOT a believer.

You also fail to accept that Luke in Acts and the Counsel of Jeruselem took away from the gentiles the need to follow the Law of Moses--which, by definition, IS the Old Covenant which contained the Ten Commandments. The BELIEVER doesn't practice gross sin---not talking about the 'letter of the Law' to which they are no longer 'bound' as I have referenced above. If he practices gross sin he grossly exposes his disregard for the Love of God and Man which are the "new" Commandments Jesus claimed were all that was necessary--so long as we trusted Him as our Saviour and accept that He has reconciled us to God. Can't you see that 'the Law' which was such a 'burden' to our forefathers is what Christ has 'freed' us from?

You also seem to refuse to believe that 'good works', that are evidence of one's faith (see James), are not equivalent to keeping the Ten Commandments, as in old Jewish times, but they are what are considered by all good people to be 'good works'.

You also refuse to admit that in 1John the 'commandments' referred to are what we call Christ's Law and they are NOT the Ten Commandments OR 'the Law', the Old Covenant Law. I support this by 1John 3:23, "And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us."---and He commanded that in Matt 12:28ff and Luke 10--as well as other places.

So, what I have to say is that you are really being led by our 'founder' and you need to break away from that in your teaching about what the NT teaches people about being Christian.

But I love you anyhow and hope that someday you will 'come around'.

Ben

[benherndon]

Robert, you are your own worst 'enemy' when it comes to explaining the Adventist's obligation to 'the Law', IMO.

You say it can't be kept, but that OBEYING it is what demonstrates our 'faith'. So, though perhaps for different reasons, you and Gerry are saying the same thing, which is that the Christian HAS to keep 'the Law' but NOT for salvation! What kind of double talk is that on the part of both of you?!! So--according to both of you folks, the Christian is still 'stuck' with 'the Law'---do it and be saved, don't do it and be lost!!!

Both of you are being led by our 'founder's' comments, IMO. Both of you make being a Christian, being saved, difficult and almost exlusive to Sabbath keepers. Both of you fail to put together 2Cor 3, Gal 3 & 4, Col 2, Eph 2, 1 Tim 1 and all of Hebrews!!! They all say the same thing by one expression or another that we are saved by faith in Jesus, very simply---and that Christians are NOT NOT NOT under the Old Covenant Law---do not try to Judaize Christianity, please!! If you have faith in Him you will love Him and be kind and considerate of our fellow citizens of the planet----and you will be a nice guy who 'believes'!!!

It is simple---- and ALL who believe in Him in their hearts and that He was raised from death reconciling us to God WILL be saved---NO EXCEPTIONS! Please let's desist from making being a Christian rather complicated.

Ben

P.S.to all SDAs: There is nothing wrong with making the Sabbath your church and fellowship day!!!! The Sabbath is the ONLY day God ever appointed for special worship of Him---but it is not binding on the gentile as it was on the Jew! Sunday or Friday or any other day of the week was never specially chosen. The only "other day" God ever chose for man to worship Him was EVERY DAY, like it says in Heb 3 & 4---TODAY, do not harden your hearts. TODAY is your 'Sabbath-like' day to rest from worrying about keeping 'the Law's' details. TODAY is THE day to rest from trying to save yourself by pretentious keeping of 'the Law', because Jesus has already done it for you---and given you its righteousness---called Grace!!

But for Christian worship and fellowshipping together its OK to choose any day, in NT times, and our Christian forefathers have gradually, for multiple reasons, chosen Sunday. But it isn't 'binding' either. So if you want to make it Sabbath in memory of creation and the Exodus, go ahead an worship on Sabbath!! I've grown accustomed to it, also, and it is a good day to do it!

Ben

[bevin]

Quote:

---

Reality of our experience: We continue to make mistakes.

Reality of God's word: "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is NOT a child of God; neither is anyone who does not love his brother." 1 Jn 3:6,9,10 NIV.

---

Easy - very easy. All you have to do is stop dancing on the heads of theological pins, and get in touch with reality.

SIN is an ambiguous word.

(1) Sometimes it means "blatantly and continuously doing heinous things that damage others and profit myself". Living in adultry, theft, and murder come to mind. Heck - a literal reading of the 10 commandments comes to mind. And as the Jews observed, and as the NT observes, no good follower of Yahweh would do these things.

(2) Sometimes it means "any subtle imperfection that makes us unsuitable for Heaven in our current state". And as Jesus and Paul observe, we are in this state and can not get out of it. Glorification is the only answer.

So - when you are having this discussion - you need to decide which of the above two definitions you want to discuss. Then, at least, you would be discussing an issue and not merely doing some silly linguistic games that profit nobody and make christians look like fools.

/Bevin

[Bravus]

./msg bevin - yeah, I've tried to explain to these guys thtthey're essentially saying the same things, using slightly different terms, but it doesn't seem to sink in...

[Robert]

Quote:

---

"Under law" as the standard of conduct? Of course!!!

---

What if, for example, I do not commit physical adultery, but I lust inwardly -- will that cause me to be lost?

[Robert]

Quote:

---

So - when you are having this discussion - you need to decide which of the above two definitions you want to discuss. Then, at least, you would be discussing an issue and not merely doing some silly linguistic games that profit nobody and make christians look like fools.

---

The essense of all sin is the love of self. All sin is based on self-seeking....

Sin defined

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Robert, you are your own worst 'enemy' when it comes to explaining the Adventist's obligation to 'the Law', IMO.

---

Did I use the word "obligation"? No, not me! We are not "under the law" - period!!! Why, is the law bad? No, but we are! Hence to be under law is death....

Quote:

---

You say it can't be kept, but that OBEYING it is what demonstrates our 'faith'. So, though perhaps for different reasons, you and Gerry are saying the same thing, which is that the Christian HAS to keep 'the Law' but NOT for salvation! What kind of double talk is that on the part of both of you?!! So--according to both of you folks, the Christian is still 'stuck' with 'the Law'---do it and be saved, don't do it and be lost!!!

---

Ben, because of your faith in Christ, do you practice murder? Have you ever been convicted for murder? How about physical adultery - do you practice sowing your seed outside the marriage? I could go on, but let me make my point.

Because you have accepted Christ's righteousness and because the Holy Spirit is in you He wants to guide you ever so gently through life's temptations. In other words He wants you to experience a life change from your old habits. The problem is we are egocentric, so we slow the Spirit's work down.

Now do not take me wrong, the Spirit's work in us is not to make us good enough to enter heaven rather it is so that we may experience what is already true of us "in Christ"....He works in us to attract others to Christ. Why? Because Christ is in heaven and can't be seen....That leaves us...we are his ambassadors!

But the fact is as far as the law is concerned, we are missing the mark - we are falling short. So we better not be "under law"!

2 Cor 6:3 We put no stumbling block in anyone’s path, so that our ministry will not be discredited. 4 Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses; 5 in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; 6 in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; 7 in truthful speech and in the power of God....

[Robert]

Quote:

---

...yeah, I've tried to explain to these guys they're essentially saying the same things, using slightly different terms, but it doesn't seem to sink in...

---

And if you think that then you are not reading very well!

Gerry states that we are "under law" as a standard. By that he allows mistakes, but other than that we are to shape-up or else!

I say we are not "under law" in any way including as a "standard"....To be under something is to be ruled by it!

Now as I rest in Christ and His doing and dying, I begin to experience a change. That is good because I for one hate being a slave to bad habits....In the past I had a bad temper....In the past I use to look at porn, now I detest it....Yet if I were under law I would never be good enough for I am failing to met its highest standard, that is, to love my neighbor in the same way I naturally love myself. Here I fall short....Here all of us fall short, except maybe for Gerry!

[Taylor]

To me the terminology over all of this can bring on endless discussion and arguments. The terminology isn't want is importan, IMHO. This is the way I view it. God requires us to keep God's law, just like we are required to keep civil laws. If we obey those laws we are not under the penalty that comes from not obeying those laws. The problem is, some laws are easier kept than others. The "Don't murder" has never been a temptation to me but the "don't covet" at times has been a temptation I am sure for every human alive. (When your neighbor gets a new vehicle doesn't that make your 10 year old car somehow look a bit older than before? If so, there might be a little bit of covetousness going on. : ) )

The point is, without God's help in my life I could NEVER keep the law. Can I gain heaven without keeping the law? NO. (hold on! I am not done. Will explain more on this.) So does the law save me? NO.

How can this be? You see, God will be taking those to heaven, those who have lived up to what they know (I am saying this as there will probably be some in heaven who have never heard the name of Jesus but who did the best they knew...). For us who have had the chance to hear about God and be well informed, keeping the law will be a natural outworking of our hearts that are responding in love to God. Keeping God's laws will be a joyful experience for a person who is in love with God and Jesus. Not ONLY will be Want to keep the law but we will want to go BEYOND keeping the law and do "good works" if you will. This would include, being kind to the "under dog", seeking to brighten another's day. This is NOT to gain heavn but to pass on the joy we have known in following Jesus.

Can I keep the law perfectly, with all motives, intents, etc in perfect allignment with God's will? Probably not. After all "the heart is deceitfully wicked and who can know it." The only one who knows our hearts inside and out is God. However, that is why we have the story in the Bible about the progress of the corn plant growing. We don't look at a baby plant and say "You are no good, you aren't mature!" and we don't look at babies and say "you are a mess since you aren't an adult yet." We can be "perfect" in every stage of development but we will never attain the status of God. When I say perfect this is what I mean. I don't mean that we will have No more sins for the next 40 years, as we can fall into sin almost before we realize it. What I mean is this. If we truely love JEsus so much we will do whatever he asks of us, we will naturally ask Him to help us overcome the sin in our lives so we can become more and more like him, more and more mature in our Christian experience. Can we obtain victory over any type of sin? Yes! If not, then God would be limited by human limitations. God can do ANYTHING, but it is up to us to cooperate with him because God never forces. But he will work with us, giving us strength to do his bidding.

Our focus, however shouldn't be on the law, but the relationship which will make "law keeping" more more "automatic" instead of a "grind". We will delight to do what our "father wants us to do" simply out of love to him and through his power.

Will there be earthly Sunday keepers in heaven? Absolutely! Why? Because they also loved God with all their hearts and lived up to what they KNEW to be right. Will there be people in heaven who never heard of "the law"? Probably. However that is also balanced by "To him who knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin." And that is why also the Bible says "If you love me, keep my commandments." But it is out of LOVE not out of "HAVE TO" and God is so gracious and full of grace as he forgives us when we fall and helps us to overcome. He does not require us to do something he hasn't made provisions for.

Jesus death not only forgives us sins but makes up for our "immaturity". I believe we will be growing in grace and knowledge for eternity. None of us has arrived.

[Gerr]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Reality of our experience: We continue to make mistakes.

Reality of God's word: "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is NOT a child of God; neither is anyone who does not love his brother." 1 Jn 3:6,9,10 NIV.

---

Easy - very easy. All you have to do is stop dancing on the heads of theological pins, and get in touch with reality.

SIN is an ambiguous word.

(1) Sometimes it means "blatantly and continuously doing heinous things that damage others and profit myself". Living in adultry, theft, and murder come to mind. Heck - a literal reading of the 10 commandments comes to mind. And as the Jews observed, and as the NT observes, no good follower of Yahweh would do these things.

(2) Sometimes it means "any subtle imperfection that makes us unsuitable for Heaven in our current state". And as Jesus and Paul observe, we are in this state and can not get out of it. Glorification is the only answer.

So - when you are having this discussion - you need to decide which of the above two definitions you want to discuss. Then, at least, you would be discussing an issue and not merely doing some silly linguistic games that profit nobody and make christians look like fools.

/Bevin

---

[:"blue"]Yes, sometimes I do feel silly pursuing this thing. But I can't watch someone so grossly prostitute the gospel & not say anything. [/]

[:"blue"]Nothing ambigious about what sin is.

[:"red"]"Sin is lawlessness." 1 Jn 3:4 NKJ

"Sin is transgression of the law." KJV

"All wrongdoing is sin, and there is a sin that does not lead to death." 1 Jn 5:17 NIV

"Everything we do wrong is sin, but not all sin is fatal." The Message

"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Rom 14:23 KJV. [/]

"The wages of sin is death." Rom 6:23. But John says there is a sin that is not fatal for the believer. So what is it? That is where INTENT, the spirit of the law comes in. Please see Joshua 20 & Num 35 come in, about intentional & unintentional sins. If someone killed another, he could run to a city of refuge. Then an investigation is done, and if proven to be accidental, the killer did not die. But if it was proven to be a willful, deliberate act, that killer is taken away from the city of refuge & handed over to the avenger.

Imperfect as they are, democratic courts of law even try to ascertain intent in handing out punishment for guilt. How then can God punish someone who loves Him but has accidentally committed a wrong?

THAT is why I say the person who is truly born again, one who is abiding in Christ, will be obedient to the law & not willfully/deliberately commit a sin, but that as long as he/she is still in this fallen body, he/she will continue to make inadvertent mistakes/sins. [/]

Gerry

[benherndon]

Quote:

---

The essense of all sin is the love of self. All sin is based on self-seeking....

---

>>>Wouldn't you say that THE ESSENSE of SIN is not believing in God the Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ, who was crucified and resurrected on our behalf, reconciling us to the Father?

The primary sin of Israel was the failure to believe in the living God. Instead they worshipped idols of wood, stone and metal--like the 'heathen' around them. They showed their dramatic lack of faith in Him. Failure to believe in and act like one has such belief in his heart is THE SIN of mankind.

God created us self centered when He gave us 'free choice'---nobody wants to die (well almost ) Everybody wants to live and live well---isn't that what made EVE vulnerable to Satan's wiles according to the story in Gen 3?

I agree with a lot of what you post but not everything or every aspect.

(There is a natural law as well as the Old Covenant law. Everybody desires to prolong life and have less pain and more of life's goodies---even the poor have all that. We cannot help being human with those tendencies we've inherited. Selflessness is a goal--but nobody but Christ ever has reached it.)

Ben

[Bravus]

Robert, yeah, sorry, I did over-simplify. When I said you're 'saying the same things', I guess what I really means is that the practical *consequences* are the same. I agree, there are some differences of emphasis, and Gerry's perspective does seem to me to say that if we sin we lose our salvation.

But in practical terms:

(a) You both believe we are saved by grace, through faith, not on our own merit (i.e. by keeping the law)

( Nonetheless, you both believe that, as saved Christians, we will live within the law - we will not be lawless or licentious.

So, in terms of the two important things: (1) the mechanism of our salvation, and our need for a Saviour and (2) the way Christians will live in relation to the law, I'd argue that the practical implications of both your belief systems are exactly the same.

Yours might lead to an internal feeling of more freedom from the law and its demands, but in practice, inasmuch as you are able, by God's grace and His continually indwelling spirit, you will live within it. Same for Gerry.

[Gerr]

Quote:

---

Robert, yeah, sorry, I did over-simplify. When I said you're 'saying the same things', I guess what I really means is that the practical *consequences* are the same. I agree, there are some differences of emphasis, and Gerry's perspective does seem to me to say that if we sin we lose our salvation.

---

[:"blue"]I have never said that if we sin we lose our salvation. What is scripturally clear to me is that IF we deliberately/intentionally/willfully commit a sin, yes, we do lose our salvation, unless that sin is repented of. [/]

Quote:

---

But in practical terms:

(a) You both believe we are saved by grace, through faith, not on our own merit (i.e. by keeping the law)

---

[:"blue"]Except he thinks I am teaching a "subtle" if not an overt form of legalism because I teach that the believer will, out of a grateful heart for His salvation, no longer live a life of rebellion, i.e. willful/deliberate/intentional disobedience. [/]

Quote:

---

(

Nonetheless, you both believe that, as saved Christians, we will live within the law - we will not be lawless or licentious.

---

[:"blue"]This is where the biggest rub is. He believes there is "some" change for the better when the Bible describes the change is so radical that it is like being born again, like having a heart transplant.

He believes Christ died for him but he doesn't believe his "old man" has to die because he died "in Him". Therefore, while there is "some" change, there is really no rebirth but rather just some modification of the old nature. A new patch over the old tear. [/]

Quote:

---

So, in terms of the two important things: (1) the mechanism of our salvation, and our need for a Saviour and (2) the way Christians will live in relation to the law, I'd argue that the practical implications of both your belief systems are exactly the same.

---

[:"blue"]I grant you that there is some similarity. He grudgingly agrees to "some" change, but I say the change is a radical one, so radical in fact that the one who "abides in Him" will no longer continue to live in sin. [/] [quote[

Yours might lead to an internal feeling of more freedom from the law and its demands, but in practice, inasmuch as you are able, by God's grace and His continually indwelling spirit, you will live within it. Same for Gerry.

---

[:"blue"]I believe you are correct on this statement. However, Robert will never (unless there is a change of heart) agree that he is being obedient. For some reason, "obedience" is like Aids or Leprosy to him when in fact obedience from a heart full of love is what God is looking for.

Thanks for your participation & attempt at reconciliation. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

---

To me the terminology over all of this can bring on endless discussion and arguments. The terminology isn't want is importan, IMHO. This is the way I view it. God requires us to keep God's law, just like we are required to keep civil laws.

Quote:

---

[:"blue"]I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence, but Robert does not. Just ask him. And that's the paradox. He believes God's law eternal, but for some reason, he thinks it doesn't apply to the believer. [/]

Quote:

---

If we obey those laws we are not under the penalty that comes from not obeying those laws.

---

[:"blue"]He thinks that because you are obeying the law, you are therefore trying to gain merit or buy your way into heaven. [/]

Quote:

---

The point is, without God's help in my life I could NEVER keep the law.

---

[:"blue"]But my understanding of his theology is that his god is NOT able to help you much. His god can only help you change "some". [/]

Quote:

---

Can I gain heaven without keeping the law? NO.

---

[:"blue"]I think he is very sure that because he is "in Christ", he can. [/]

(hold on! I am not done. Will explain more on this.) So does the law save me? NO.

How can this be? You see, God will be taking those to heaven, those who have lived up to what they know (I am saying this as there will probably be some in heaven who have never heard the name of Jesus but who did the best they knew...). For us who have had the chance to hear about God and be well informed, keeping the law will be a natural outworking of our hearts that are responding in love to God. Keeping God's laws will be a joyful experience for a person who is in love with God and Jesus.

---

[:"blue"]Something he can't seem to grasp, that I am so thankful for saving me that now out of gratitude I want to do anything He wants me to do. [/]

Quote:

---

Not ONLY will be Want to keep the law but we will want to go BEYOND keeping the law and do "good works" if you will. This would include, being kind to the "under dog", seeking to brighten another's day. This is NOT to gain heavn but to pass on the joy we have known in following Jesus.

---

[:"blue"]If you even hint about obedience, you will be charged with legalism! [/]

Quote:

---

Our focus, however shouldn't be on the law, but the relationship which will make "law keeping" more more "automatic" instead of a "grind". We will delight to do what our "father wants us to do" simply out of love to him and through his power.

---

[:"blue"]Agree completely! "Abiding" is the watchword for me. [/]

Quote:

---

Will there be earthly Sunday keepers in heaven? Absolutely! Why? Because they also loved God with all their hearts and lived up to what they KNEW to be right. Will there be people in heaven who never heard of "the law"? Probably. However that is also balanced by "To him who knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin." And that is why also the Bible says "If you love me, keep my commandments." But it is out of LOVE not out of "HAVE TO" and God is so gracious and full of grace as he forgives us when we fall and helps us to overcome. He does not require us to do something he hasn't made provisions for.

Jesus death not only forgives us sins but makes up for our "immaturity". I believe we will be growing in grace and knowledge for eternity. None of us has arrived.

---

---

[:"blue"]No argument from me here. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

Quote:

---

If we truly love Jesus so much we will do whatever he asks of us...

---

I see you are new here....Welcome! Gerry knows what's coming next....Well here's what Jesus asks us:

“If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor...." Matt 19:21 NIV

"Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." [Luke 12:33,34]

Quote:

---

Can we obtain victory over any type of sin? Yes! If not, then God would be limited by human limitations. God can do ANYTHING, but it is up to us to cooperate with him because God never forces

---

If God never forces (and He does not) then God is limited because victory is based on our cooperation! I bet you are not going to cooperate with Him on selling all you have and giving the proceeds to the poor....

That is what Jesus did! He left the riches of heaven to come here to manifest His father's love toward sinners. That is loving your neighbor as yourself. In other words there was no self-love is Christ's selfless, agape love.

As I have pointed out to Gerry a million times, Christ had no place to lay His head! Why? He was living for others and not Himself. He didn't have stock options or a nice car and home. He didn't go to church in nice three-piece suit.... No He was too busy loving and serving His fallen creation.

[Robert]

Quote:

---

God created us self centered when He gave us 'free choice'---nobody wants to die

---

God created us in His image through Adam at creation. God is not the author of self-love…

Quote:

---

Everybody wants to live and live well---isn't that what made EVE vulnerable to Satan's wiles according to the story in Gen 3?

---

Eve desired to be as gods....That is a mystery for Eve had no indwelling sin....So I'll leave that one alone.

You say "everybody wants to live and live well." In human terms "yes" - but in heavenly "terms" no....Now that does not mean that death is welcome. Let me explain:

First of all death is the consequence of sin...the results. I am not talking of the curse of the law where God abandons the unbeliever and he dies the 2nd death. No, I am talking about the result of sin [the love of self]. Sin and death are a package deal...

Christ made us "in Adam" in His image after His likeness. That simply means that He created humanity with a nature that lived for others...There wasn’t any "self" in the original, creation equation. In other words God's original intent was for His creation to lust, if you will, after the welfare of others.

Here's an example of Christ's love:

Whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. [Why?] “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” [Mark 10:43-45]

Please note that when Christ died He wasn't just laying His life down for 3 days until the resurrection, no He was saying goodbye to life for eternity so that His enemies (those who were murdering Him) might have heaven in His place.

So the problem with your statement, "nobody wants to die…. Everybody wants to live and live well” is based on sinful human desires….That is why Christ could say goodbye to life…He lived for others…those who hated Him. Now I am not saying this decision was easy…It was very hard…

I know, I know…I can hear your reply – “But I thought you said Christ was selfless!” Well, He is … but the humanity that He assumed into His Deity was our fallen life indwelt with the principle of self….That is why you can hear Christ as Man say, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as Thou wilt.

Please notice that Christ was tempted to save Himself…If He would have done this then mankind would have been lost….Instead we see Him quickly countering the desire of our human nature when He says, “yet not as I [Jesus as man] will, but as Thou [God the Father] wilt.”

Christ spend thirty something years saying “no” to self-centered desires…He lived only for others….That is what the law demands…Anything outside this is unacceptable.

[Taylor]

Yes, we must give to the poor, we must help those around us to the point of personal pain if necessary. WE must do what God asks us to do no matter how inconvenient etc. However, we are also priviledged to have God's law given to us to keep us from the many pitfalls that others have had to experience. God is love, that is why he gave us the law. He wanted us to live a happy life that was as free from the many ugly and hurtful things that sin brings into our lives. God is wonderful isn't he?