Have the demands of God's holy law been made void?

[benherndon]

Robert, didn't Christ know He was going to be raised back to life? He knew this before He was crucified, right? I admit in the 'heat' of the crucifixion He felt 'alone' and 'abandoned'--or was tempted to feel that way, but He said "nevertheless I put myself into your hands" in essence. He died with at least a 'hint' of Hope if we can depend on the writings of the Gospel writers.

Ben (in haste)

[Robert]

Read this, Dr. Ben....It is good!

Click here!

[Gerr]

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Yes, we must give to the poor, we must help those around us to the point of personal pain if necessary. WE must do what God asks us to do no matter how inconvenient etc. However, we are also priviledged to have God's law given to us to keep us from the many pitfalls that others have had to experience. God is love, that is why he gave us the law. He wanted us to live a happy life that was as free from the many ugly and hurtful things that sin brings into our lives. God is wonderful isn't he?

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[:"blue"]Behold how extreme some of his positions are!

The God of the Bible claims 10% of your income & asks for liberality in your offerings, but Robert's god demands 100%!!!

The Jesus of the NT promises, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers.....for My sake and the gospel's, who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time - houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands...." Mk 10:30 NKJ, but Robert is applying to everyone what He told one individual, i.e. sell everything, to do because that was the one thing that was keeping him away from the kingdom. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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"Under law" as the standard of conduct? Of course!!!

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What if, for example, I do not commit physical adultery, but I lust inwardly -- will that cause me to be lost?

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[:"blue"]Like being immersed in pornography?

[:"red"]"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." [/]1 Cor 6:9-11 NKJ [/]

[:"red"]"But the cowardly, unbelieving, merderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and ALL liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Rev 21:8 NKJ [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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The God of the Bible claims 10% of your income & asks for liberality in your offerings, but Robert's god demands 100%!!!

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My God doesn't demand anything unless one insists on being "under law." For those who desire to be under law, then God says "You must be perfect" (see Matt 5:48)....What's is perfection? Complete selfless, agape love!!! Look at Christ's life for He said that He fulfilled the law.

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Peter began to say to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You.” 29 Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel’s sake, 30 but

that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age

, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life. 31 “But many who are first, will be last; and the last, first.”

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This one is a good one Gerry....

Did the disciples, who left all they had, obtain a hundred times as much? Well, yes and no....

No as far as this world goes, but "yes" as far as the future world goes. Did Jesus go from being homeless to living in the Hilton? No, but when He went back to heaven He did....

In Hebrews 11:37-38 I read the following:

They [believers] were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.

Did they "receive a hundred times as much now in the present age"? No....Paul says, "And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised...

Jesus told the rich young man (who desired to be under law) "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." Where was that treasure, here? No, in heaven!!!!

Good try, because that quote you gave me was a bit tricky. That made me think....Thanks!

Rob

[Gerr]

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Robert, you are your own worst 'enemy' when it comes to explaining the Adventist's obligation to 'the Law', IMO.

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Did I use the word "obligation"? No, not me! We are not "under the law" - period!!! Why, is the law bad? No, but we are! Hence to be under law is death....

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[:"blue"]Do you know what the Bible says about lawless people, Robert?

[:"red"]"Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" Mt 7:23 NKJ

"The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlwessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire." Mt 13:41,42 NKJ.

"And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold." Mt 24:13 NKJ.

"Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness?" 2 Cor 6:14 NKJ

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie..." 2 Thes 2:7-11 NKJ. [/] [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

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First of all you are righteous, that is, "in Christ"....Yes in yourself you are still a sinner (although you mature spiritually)....So all this is saying is that the unbeliever will not enter heaven....Let's go on:

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Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you.

But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor 6:9-11 NKJ

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When were you washed, sanctified and justified? Answer:

"But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord."

"In Christ" you have all these things....

Did you notice something in your quote? Here:

"nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you."

The NIV says, "nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were."

"Some of you were" is in the past tense, right? Now look at the context:

Verse 7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat [swindle] and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.

So apparently they were not clean, in and of themselves. Then why does Paul say, "And that is what some of you were" when in fact they still were swindling? Because Paul is speaking of their position "in Christ"!!!!!

Now that doesn't mean that he wanted them to continue to cheat and swindle....What he is saying is, "Look guys..."in Christ" you are righteous - there is no condemnation...i.e., you are not swindlers "in Him!" Shouldn't you be reckoning yourselves dead to swindling and alive to God? Shouldn't your faith be maturing????

That's the issue....

Rob

[Gerr]

"Some of you were..." That means they quit doing those things. That's what the gospel does, i.e. "It teaches us to say 'No' to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age...." Tit 2:12 NIV.

Gerry

[Robert]

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and those who practice lawlessness

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And this implies you are under law? Please!!!

"Lawlessness" really means being opposed to God's love....To practice sin means that in your heart...in your mind...you haven't said goodbye to the principle of self....In other words you love Satan's kingdom of self-love, greed, and self-seeking....In other words you are like Lot's wife, you are still back in Sodom! (PS: When I say "you" I use it generically)

I personally delight in the law of God according to the converted mind....but when the rubber meets the road I find my self falling short, very short, of God's selfless love. If I were under law I wouldn't have a chance...

God looks at our mindset ...our character. He looks at the heart our intentions....You focus too much on the outside...too much on performance. That's why I keep calling you a subtle legalist....

[Robert]

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"Some of you were..." That means they

quit

doing those things. That's what the gospel does, i.e. "It teaches us to say 'No' to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled,

upright

and godly lives

in this present age....

" Tit 2:12 NIV.

Gerry

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Come on Gerry, look at the context:

Verse 7 The very fact that you have lawsuits [present tense] among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat [swindle] and do wrong [again, present tense], and you do this to your brothers.

[Gerr]

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Now that doesn't mean that he wanted them to continue to cheat and swindle....

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[:"blue"]But Paul can't tell them to stop cheating & swindling because, as you so boldly claim, they are not under the law that tells them to stop cheating & swindling, right? [/]

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What he is saying is, "Look guys..."in Christ" you are righteous - there is no condemnation...i.e., you are not swindlers "in Him!" Shouldn't you be reckoning yourselves dead to swindling and alive to God? Shouldn't your faith be maturing????

That's the issue....

Rob

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[:"blue"]Oh, soooo, believers can continue to swindle, fornicate, bow to idols, commit adultery, practice homosexuality, steal, covet, extort, etc. & as long as you claim to be "in Christ" you are not under the law & you are still assured of heaven? But for the poor unbeliever who does those things, he would be condemned to hell? A very just God, would you say?

And being "in Christ" has now given legitimacy to unrighteous living? The God of whom the Bible says:

[:"red"]"Your eyes are to pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong..." Hab 1:13 NIV

"But how can you stand these treacherous evil men? Your eyes are too holy to look at evil. And you cannot stand the sight of people doing wrong." GNT [/]

Note that this statement was not directed to unbelievers but to His professed people Israel!

[/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

They had lawsuits because some of them quit cheating & swindling while some of them who may have professed to be "in Christ" & thus not under the law nor subject to the law, continued to cheat & swindle.

Gerry

[Gerr]

To be lawless is not only being opposed to God's love but also to be without law. And what are the 10c but expressions of love?

Gerry

[Gerr]

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God looks at our mindset ...our character. He looks at the heart

our intentions

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[:"blue"]THAT is what I have been trying to tell you for eons! About inadvertent vs. deliberate/willful sins! About violating the letter of the law but obeying its spirit, or keeping the letter of the law but violating its spirit.

If my wife were having a heart attack, or if I had a child who has croup & could go into respiratory arrest any time, do you think I would be driving 35 mph in a 35 mph zone or stopping at red lights if there is no traffic around on my way to the ER? If Jesus were the cop, would He charge me with reckless driving?

And how could you, in your example of not wearing a seatbelt be keeping the spirit of the law if you so blatantly disregard it?

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[/]

You focus too much on the outside...too much on performance. That's why I keep calling you a subtle legalist....

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[:"blue"]On the contrary, as I already said, I have been telling you about intent, motive for quite sometime, but apparently you are so blinded by your animosity towards legalism that you couldn't tell what it is if you saw one. [/]

[:"red"]"When it is in the heart [intent] to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him, and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless relgion. But Jesus says, 'If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." 1 SM 382. [/]

[:"blue"]So I may fall short of perfection because I am still in this fallen body, but because God sees the condition of my heart [intent], then as I offer him my faulty works, it goes up to Him with the incense of Christ's righteousness. But before you say that I am working my way to heaven, let me emphasize again that what I do has no salvific merit whatsoever! Just the response of a thankful heart. I love Him because He first loved me. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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In Hebrews 11:37-38 I read the following:

They [believers] were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword;

they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.

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[:"blue"]Some believers do go through such experiences. [/]

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Did they "receive a hundred times as much now in the present age"? No....Paul says, "And all these, having gained approval through their faith,

did not receive what was promised...

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[:"blue"]And some did, as Paul says in the same chapter, [:"red"]"And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of david and Samuel and the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises stopped the mouths of lions, etc. " Heb 11:32,33 NKJ. [/]

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God & shunned evil.....Also, [:"red"]his possessions were 7k sheep, 3k camels, 500 yoke of oxen, 500 female donkeys, and a very large household, so that this man was the greatest of all the people of the East." Job 1:1-3 NKJ.

"Now the LORD blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning; for he had 14k sheep, 6k camels, 1k yoke of oxen, 1k female donkeys. He also had 7 sons & 3 daughters." Job 42:12,13 NKJ.

"Lot also, who went with Abram, had flocks and herds and tents. Now the land was not able to support them, that they might dwell together, for their possessions were so great that they could not dwell together." Gen 13:5,6 NKJ. [/] [/]

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Jesus told the rich young man (who desired to be under law) "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor,

and you will have treasure in heaven.

" Where was that treasure, here? No, in heaven!!!!

Good try, because that quote you gave me was a bit tricky. That made me think....Thanks!

Rob

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[:"blue"]"Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its fruit? Or who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk of the flock? .......... For it is written in the law of Moses, 'You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain.' Is it oxen God is concerned about? Or does He say it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written, that he who plws should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it a great thing if we reap your material things?" 1 Cor 9:9-12 NKJ.

[:"red"]"The best thing anyone can do is to eat and drink and enjoy what he has earned. And yet, I realized that even this comes from God." Ecc 2:24 GNT [/]

So enjoy your toys, Rob. And don't feel guilty that you didn't sell your house & your two cars. Just remember to give back what belongs to Him [He claims only 10%!!!], and give a liberal thank offering, not forgetting the poor as Taylor said. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Did I use the word "obligation"? No, not me! We are not "under the law" - period!!! Why, is the law bad? No, but we are! Hence to be under law is death....

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Here's what Paul says: [:"blue"]"And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Chrst), that I might win those who are without law....1 Cor 9:20,21 NKJ.

"In the same way, when I am working with Gentiles, I live like a Gentile, outside the Jewish Law, in order to win Gentiles. This does not mean that I do not obey God's law; I am really under Christ's law." 1 Cor 9:21 GNT

"To those without law, as without law - (not being without law to God, but within law to Christ] that I might gain those without law." 9:21 Young's Literal Trans. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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So enjoy your toys, Rob. And don't feel guilty that you didn't sell your house & your three cars. Just remember to give back what belongs to Him [He claims only 10%!!!], and give a liberal thank offering, not forgetting the poor as Taylor said.

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You just don't get it, do you??? The fact that I live for "self" proves that I am a sinner. I am selfish...I love myself first and foremost and if anything is left over I might help others....Why? Mortgages, cars, etc.. all these “things” prove I am totally consumed with myself....That translates to sinner, not law-keeper.

Just because I subjectively keep the law as it is written (i.e., how it reads) does not mean I am being selfless. The fact is I am being partly selfless....That's called partial obedience!

Jesus stated something that you need to be aware of...He said, "You [the believer] do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked...." He goes on to say that what you need is “salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.”

Have you seen my latest signature? Here’s what it says:

• “We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"!

What does Christ crucifixion have to do with all this? It has everything….Let me illustrate:

I don’t know if you are married or if you have grown children or not? I will assume you are married and love your wife as yourself. If so then this illustration might show you what I mean by “falling short”!?!

Let’s say that some thief breaks into your home while your wife is there (God forbid of course). He doesn't realize someone is home....Not only is he a thief, but he has a deep hatred of women. Finding her there, he precedes to have his way with her. After that encounter he methodically tortures her until she gives up the ghost.

You come home and realizing what has happened you immediately call the police. To make this illustration short, they find the murderer and a court day is set. He is found guilty, but you stand up and say, “I want this man to go free, I will take the penalty of his crime on myself. I will die his death!”

The courtroom gasps! The judge, albeit startled, says “Are you in your right mind? This man is a cold-blooded murder….He deserves the worst kind of death possible! And you want to die in his place?”

You reply, “Not only do I want to take his punishment (death), but I want him to have everything I own….I want him to enjoy the things I have…my cars, my home, my bank account, everything!” The judge replies, “You are mad – this is unheard of!!!”

Well Gerry, that in a nutshell is what Christ did for His enemies – His murderers. What does this prove? It proves that Christ loved His enemies more than He loves Himself.

You see Christ as man could not see beyond the grave. In fact EGW says, “He could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him the coming forth from the grave a conqueror….” Why?

When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).

Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. Then read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Keep these two things in mind: Christ was God-dependent, and He was dependent on the Father for the resurrection.

Do you know what the Father did on the cross? Christ cried out: “Father, Father why have you forsaken me?” What He meant is not “Why are you leaving me for three days?” but, “Why have You abandoned Me?”

Do you know what that meant to Christ? It meant that the hope of the resurrection went with that abandonment. When the Father forsook Him in terms of Christ’s feeling, then the hope of the resurrection went with it.

The issue He faced was not to screw up His will power and say, “I’ll hold on for a few hours or for three days.” That is no sacrifice for a God who lives in eternity. The issue was good-bye to life forever, never again to see His Father, never again to go back to heaven. It meant to give up His glory, to give up His life.

Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners [His enemies] Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

In other words, the supreme sacrifice is that Jesus was willing to accept our curse and give us His life in exchange. It was not a question of saving Himself and the world. He could not do that. He had to make a choice between the world and Himself. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? I hope you will never forget this; [:"red"] He was saying that He loves us more than Himself.[/] That is why the Spirit of law demands that we love our neighbors as we naturally love ourselves!

Now do you see that you are falling short of God’s selfless, agape love??? If so your eyes have been opened! Therefore, by the works of the law, no one will declared righteousness in His sight, for by the law comes the knowledge of sin (i.e., your sinfulness!)

[DaveM1936]

Obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the Scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience. {SC 60.2}

[DaveM1936]

If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Gerr]

Well, if you still can't see the folly of your theology I don't think there is anything anyone can say to change your mind. I am not going to carry this any farther.

[:"blue"]"If you do not obey the law, God will find your prayers too hateful to hear." Prov 28:9 GNT

"Here is my final conclusion: Fear God & obey his commands, for this is the duty of every person." Eccl 12:13 NLT. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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You reply, “Not only do I want to take his punishment (death), but

I want him to have everything I own….

I want him to enjoy the things I have…my cars, my home, my bank account, everything!”

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Christ poured out His life on the cross so that you could have what He had.... Again, that's why He said to the Rich Young Ruler:

“If you want to be perfect [that's what the law requires], go, sell your possessions and give to the poor [in other words do like Christ and give up everything you have], and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

That's love...that's agape! You claim to be obedient to God's law...I say, "poppycock!" You only partially obey! You, like me, are selfish....WHO ARE YOU KIDDING?

What did Ellen White say? "Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves." [R&H 25 Sept 1900]

"Not to see the marked contrast" is blindness, my legalistic friend....You guys need a reality check!!!!

Rob

[DaveM1936]

Rom 6:16

Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey-- whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? (NIV)

We have only two choices. We must choose between two options. Be SLAVES to sin. Sin enslaves us, takes away our freedom, makes us helpess to free ourselves. Then it gives us death as our reward.

Or we can choose God as our Ruler. God restores our freedoms. Knowing we are helpless to free ourselves, He takes upon Himself the work of setting us free. The reward is righteousness, which is benevolence and love. This leads to eternal life.

[Robert]

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We have only two choices. We must choose between two options. Be SLAVES to sin.

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We are freed in stages, individually, as we learn to "walk in the Spirit" and have no confidence in ourselves. But before that can happen we must have the assurance of salvation. Only then can we begin to grow.

You guys think that, bang, we are free from sin or "bang", the law is written on our hearts....It doesn't work that way. Sanctification or experiencing the power of the gospel is a lifelong process.

My argument with Gerry (and now maybe you) is that we can’t be “under law” when we are in fact failing to measure up to its highest demands. If you want to see law keeping in action then you must look to Christ's selfless life.

You see the law demands that you are 100% compliant…. Anything outside that percentage brings “the curse”. Even as “standard” of Christian living we are not under it…. Sure we can use it to describe sin but that’s about it….

Like I said change comes about by looking unto Christ. That doesn’t mean looking at a picture on the wall – it means looking at His life while here on earth. That is why EGW says we should spend a thoughtful hour per day reflecting on the life of Christ.

What happens when we do this? Do we just become magically sinless overnight? No…. Again, remember that EGW states that we will never attain to perfection this side of eternity. That, however, does not negate growth. Like I said, the focus should not be law, it should be Christ. Listen to EGW again:

• -BC- 1888

  -TI- The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials

  -CN- 66

  -CT- Christ Prayed for Unity (from Ms 10, 1890)

  -PR- 04

  -PG- 560

  As a people, we have preached the law until we are as dry as the hills of Gilboa that had neither dew nor rain. We must preach Christ in the law [i.e., preach about His life as the fulfillment of the law] and there will be sap and nourishment in the preaching that will be as food to the famishing flock of God. We must not trust in our own merits at all, but in the merits of Jesus of Nazareth. Our eyes must be anointed with eye-salve.

Now when we do that we will make progress, but please do not forget that we are missing the mark, we are falling short. That means we are never fully measuring up…never!

1 Cor 3:12-18 states it best:

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”…For to this day, when they read the old covenant [its demands of obedience], that same veil remains unlifted, because only

in Christ

is it [the veil] taken away…. 16 but when a man turns to the Lord

the veil is removed.

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I believe that “the veil” is analogous to the veil that separates sinners from a Holy God. Thus “in Christ” we can BOLDLY come before the God’s throne will the full assurance of faith. That’s what Heb 10:19-22 states! We are accepted in the Beloved….Now back to the next verse:

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17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. [Freedom from the condemnation of the Old Covenant] 18 And we all,

with unveiled face

,

beholding the glory of the Lord , [:"red"] are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another[/]

; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.”

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[Robert]

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I believe that “the veil” is analogous to the veil that separates sinners from a Holy God. Thus “in Christ” we can BOLDLY come before the God’s throne will the full assurance of faith. That’s what Heb 10:19-22 states! We are accepted in the Beloved….Now back to the next verse:

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Corrected version:

"I believe that “the veil” is analogous to the veil that separates sinners from a Holy God. Thus “in Christ” we can BOLDLY come before God’s throne with full assurance. That’s what Heb 10:19-22 states! We are accepted in the Beloved…."

[Robert]

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Did I use the word "obligation"? No, not me! We are not "under the law" - period!!! Why, is the law bad? No, but we are! Hence to be under law is death....

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"And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law....1 Cor 9:20,21 NKJ.

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NASB: Verse 22: "To those who are under the Law, as under the Law, [:"red"]though not being myself under the Law[/], that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law [i.e., the Gentiles], as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, that I might win those who are without law."

Does God and Christ have two different laws? I looked up the phrase the, "law of Christ"....Here's what I found:

I could only find this phrase in Gal 6:2 -- "Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3 For if any one thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself...."

Note nothing is said of the first, four commandments. In fact you'll find this idea throughout the N.T.

Romans 13:9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law...

That "any other commandment" is in the context of "loving your neighbor." Nothing is said of the first four!

Gal 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free [from "under law" -see verse 1]. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Note that "the entire law" is summed up by loving your neighbor as yourself. Nothing mentioned of the first four commandments.

So perhaps the law of Christ refers to reflecting His love. Maybe it is God's love written into the heart...you know, that process called sanctification!

Nothing about the first four commandments of the moral law, why?

Under the New Covenant "faith" in Christ fulfills the first four. As a result the believer begins to reflect Christ....Not that we are perfectly reflecting Him, rather it is something we aim for through faith. Our eyes are on Christ and His matchless love. That's what I believe it means by the law of Christ.

I can somewhat prove this by using Romans 8:1,3 -- "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus... condemned sin in the flesh...."

In other words "The power of the Spirit" in Christ's life defeated the principle of self (sin) in Christ's assumed humanity.

So, as we "walk in the Spirit", He (the Spirit) is able to defeat the principle of self, living in us. That to me is the law of Christ....It refers to the power of Spirit that is available to the sinner as temptations arise.

Therefore "The law of Christ" does not refer to the 10 commandments, although there are some similarities.

Shoot....