Have the demands of God's holy law been made void?

[Gerr]

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And your point is------?

The 'stranger WITHIN thy gates'-----does not apply to the other peoples of the world OUTSIDE the gates of the Jew.

Have you read this: "He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. HE HAS DONE THIS FOR NO OTHER NATION; THEY DO NOT KNOW HIS LAWS. Praise the Lord."--Ps 147 There are other comments saying similarly. Look them up.

Don't let that 'veil' cover your heart.--2Cor 3. The NT is our Authourity now---the OT is not our Authority now! Jesus fulfilled "..the Law and the Prophets". Not one jot or title will away UNTIL all be fulfilled. "ALL" was fulfilled when He was resurrected.

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[:"blue"]I beg your pardon? Everything in the Law & the Prophets have not yet been fulfilled!!! We're still waiting for the Stone Kingdom of Dan 2 to appear. We are still waiting for Michael the great prince to stand up and come and deliver his people in Dan 12. And we're still waiting for the new heavens & the new earth of Isa. 65 & 66. Or the great & dreadful day that burns like an oven when "all who do wickedly will be stubble" in Mal 3.

Sooooo, according to your line of reasoning that when something is fulfilled it is therefore done away with, the Law & the Prophets, i.e. the OT, cannot/could not have been done away with because not everything in it has been fulfilled yet!

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Gerry

[Gerr]

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Sabbath observance was not reinforced by that comment of Jesus as so many Sabbatarians claim, IMO.

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[:"blue"]Fortunately, or unfortunately? It is JUST your opinion! You claim you have accepted Jesus as your LORD. Well & good. You claim to obey "Christ's law." Excellent. What does it mean to you then to claim as your Lord the LORD of the Sabbath and then totally disregard the very symbol of His Lordship, the reminder of His creatorship, the very symbol & reminder that it is He alone that can make you holy? That only in Him can we rest for salvation? [/]

Gerry

[benherndon]

Jesus is the complete fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. He brought the kingdom of God to the people---they did NOT have it previously.

"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the LOST SHEEP of Israel. As you go, PREACH THIS MESSAGE: THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS NEAR."(Matt 10)---His soon death and resurrection would usher in the Kingdom of Heaven! Isn't that what this means? But the Sabbatarains of that day rejected Him and His message! --- and the message of that day was, therefore, taken to people who were NOT Sabbatarians---the gentiles!! Ponder that for a while, folks! If it hurts, I'm sorry---but I didn't say it, Jesus did!

Do you still have the 'veil' of 2Cor3 over your comprehension BECAUSE you are still reading Moses and attributing to him more authority than you are to Jesus and His words? It was HIS words that were to make us free, not the 'words' of 'the Law'---The Law of Moses does NOT make us 'free'---The Law of Moses is NOT the law of liberty OR the law that brings freedom mentioned in James---nor is it the 'royal' law mentioned in James.

Free from what? Answer: the ministration of death & condemnation which was defined as being 'the Law'. Since you hang on to the law that was 'done away' and 'abolished' you have a veil over your comprehension, your understanding, your heart!

Be careful that this following prophecy may not apply:

"Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear OR UNDERSTAND"

"In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them." v 16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it." Matt 13

"But THEIR MINDS WERE MADE DULL, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant[KJV="testament"] is read." 2Cor 3:14

What's the problem??

I wouldn't even THINK of paraphrasing a recent US President by saying "Its the veil,________!"---I wouldn't even think of saying that to you!! NEVER!!!

I wouldn't even THINK of saying that to you!!!! Some people might say it about me---but I would never say it to you? NEVER!!!

(Just kidding!)

But there is a more important "law" than 'the Old Covenant law". It is the Law of Christ's Grace, the Gospel!! His law is a little similar to the OC law but it is 'not like' it, either. It is a better 'law'----the NEW Covenant! The OLD one 'is fading away'---Heb 8.

Ben

[benherndon]

Are you mixing up my statement that this is the age of Christ's Law rather than the OC Law as an indication that I claim to be obeying Christ's Law? I don't remember making such a claim. Which post was it?

If you think that because I say 'the Law' is 'done away' in authority over the Christian -- my 'read' of 2Cor 3, Gal 3(not under supervision of), Eph 2(abolishing in His flesh the law), Rom 14(one man considers a day--another considers every day), Col 2(nailed to the cross), Heb 8(He has made the first covenant obsolete)---that there is no 'law' governing the Christian life you must not have taken seriously the NT sayings on the subject. The New Testament tells the Christian how to live life. 'the Law' tells the Jew how to live his life. Somewhat of a difference prevails far as I can tell from my reading. And, you think I'm wrong. Each man can make up his own mind, right? Rom 14.

Until the disablitiy of age came upon us we were SDA church going Sabbatarians in practice. I've never observed in a special way any Sunday and have never recommended it over the Sabbath. However, to be clear about it I also do not criticize the Sunday keeper because the NT does not make the Sabbath mandatory--and while lots of SDAs do think Sabbath observing is mandatory, few of them practice it, if there are any that do. What's mandatory for salvation is not to reject God and His Son, Jesus and the idea that He has reconciled us sinners to the Father. What God is going to do about good people that are culturally bound to a nonBiblical God is His business--not mine. I 'll leave that ALL to Him.

Certainly the 'believer' as described throughout the NT is going to be saved if anybody is. (Don't waste my time misinterpreting James talking about 'devils who believe')

Ben

[LifeHiscost]

Ben,

[:"red"] "For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!" [/] James 2:11,12

God gives no other reason for eliminating the consequences of ignoring His present day code of conduct which I believe to be further elaborated in John 3:17

[:"red"] "For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him." [/]

Individuals who ignore the code of conduct set up by God for this present generation reveal a disregard of greater or lesser degree, for the safety and welfare of those around them.

Lift Jesus up!!

[LifeHiscost]

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But there is a more important "law" than 'the Old Covenant law". It is the Law of Christ's Grace, the Gospel!! His law is a little similar to the OC law but it is 'not like' it, either. It is a better 'law'----the NEW Covenant! The OLD one 'is fading away'---Heb 8. Ben

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Maybe this will help make your point, Ben.

[:"red"] "I give you a new commandment: that you should love one another. Just as I have loved you, so you too should love one another." [/] John 13:34 AMP

I would be interested in knowing how you feel dropping the injunction for refraining from murdering each other is going to allow Jesus injunction above to be fulfilled.

[:"red"] "Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, for each one should carry his own load. " [/]

Lift Jesus up!!

[Robert]

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Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom

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Come on, "the law" does not give freedom....It condemns...it puts you in death row! It is a yoke of bondage to sinners....* It demands perfection!!!

The law that gives liberty is Christ [compare 2 Corinthians 3:17,18]....He is the one who will judge you complete in Himself. Why? You are not under the law - rather you are under Him and His grace!

* Notes:

Gal 5:1 It was for freedom [from under law - see the immediate context] that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Acts 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

[Gerr]

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Jesus is the complete fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. He brought the kingdom of God to the people---they did NOT have it previously.

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[:"blue"]Indeed! "For all the promises of God in Him are Yes..." 2 Co r 1:20 NKJ. But remember, the Kingdom of God that He brought in during His first coming was His kingdom IN the heart. Jesus has not yet fulfilled the second part, i.e. His visible, physical kingdom has not yet smashed the kingdoms of this world (Dan 2), and the saints have not as yet received this kingdom that is everlasting. We are still here under the dominion of nations largely under the direction of the prince of this world. [/]

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"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the LOST SHEEP of Israel. As you go, PREACH THIS MESSAGE: THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS NEAR."(Matt 10)---His soon death and resurrection would usher in the Kingdom of Heaven! Isn't that what this means? But the Sabbatarains of that day rejected Him and His message! --- and the message of that day was, therefore, taken to people who were NOT Sabbatarians---the gentiles!! Ponder that for a while, folks! If it hurts, I'm sorry---but I didn't say it, Jesus did!

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[:"blue"]See my comment above about the Kingdom of God in the heart & His Kingdom of Glory that is yet to come. [/]

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Do you still have the 'veil' of 2Cor3 over your comprehension BECAUSE you are still reading Moses and attributing to him more authority than you are to Jesus and His words? It was HIS words that were to make us free, not the 'words' of 'the Law'---The Law of Moses does NOT make us 'free'---The Law of Moses is NOT the law of liberty OR the law that brings freedom mentioned in James---nor is it the 'royal' law mentioned in James.

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[:"blue"]"You search the Scriptures [OT], ....these are they which testify of Me.....For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; <font size=4> for he wrote about Me.</font>" Jn 5:39,46 NKJ. [/]

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Free from what? Answer: the ministration of death & condemnation which was defined as being 'the Law'. Since you hang on to the law that was 'done away' and 'abolished' you have a veil over your comprehension, your understanding, your heart!

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[:"blue"]Paul's ministry was a pleasing fragrance, an "aroma of life" to those who believed, but odorous & an "aroma of death" to those who rejected his ministry. See 2 Cor 2:14-16. In the same manner, God intended that the Law should promote life to the obedient.

[:"red"]"He said to them, 'Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law. <font size=4> They are not just idle words for you - they are your life. By them you will live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess.</font>'" [/]Dt 32:46,47 NIV.

But the Law has a flipside when it is disobeyed: [:"red"]"See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. BUT IF you heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish......I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days..." Dt 30:15-20 NKJ. [/]

Paul agrees completely when he said: [:"red"]"I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life, actually brought death." Rom 7:10 NIV [/]

So, there you have it, Ben. Can't you see the contrast that Paul's ministry, a NC ministry, is a ministry of life, a pleasing fragrance to those who accepted it and a ministry/aroma of death to those who rejected it? That when the law, the 10c are merely written on stone/piece of paper like the Bible & not internalized, i.e. written in the heart by the Holy Spirit, it remains a ministry of death? And that when it is internalized & written in the heart as the Lord intended it that it is a ministry of life?

Liberty & safety is only possible in a nation ruled by law. Anarcy & chaos rule where there is no law. God's law is a "perfect law of liberty" to those in whose heart it is written & who obey it from the heart. [/]

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Be careful that this following prophecy may not apply:

"Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear OR UNDERSTAND"

"In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them." v 16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it." Matt 13

"But THEIR MINDS WERE MADE DULL, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant[KJV="testament"] is read." 2Cor 3:14

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[:"blue"]Yeah, let's all be careful because His word applies to all, including those who think they know & understand. [:"red"]"Don't be so naive and self-confident. You're not exempt. You could fall flat on your face just as easily as anyone else." 1 Cor 10:12 "The Message". "Test yourselves to make sure you are solid in the faith. Don't drift along taking everything for granted. Give yourselves regular checkups...." 2 Cor 13:5 "The Message" [/] [/]

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What's the problem??

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[:"blue"]IMHO, you are not taking the Word seriously, that "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God." Mt 4:4 NKJ.

Frankly, your argument that the 10c, the OT, have been abolished is so pathetic you don't realize that without the OT the NT has no leg to stand on. [/]

Gerry

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[Gerr]

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Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom

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Come on, "the law" does not give freedom....It condemns...it puts you in death row! It is a yoke of bondage to sinners....* It demands perfection!!!

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[:"blue"]Take away all the traffic laws and see how safe & free you are to drive. Take away all the rules & regulations of the stock market and see how safe & free you are to invest. Take away the US constitution and all its laws and see how safe & free you are. Freedom & safety are possible only in a nation ruled by law & where the law is obeyed. The whole universe run on law. The blood that runs through your body runs on law. Your car runs on law. The devil loves to hurt God & His children, that is why he promotes lawlessness [condition without law] because its results are chaos, anarchy, loss of freedom AND DEATH! [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Maybe we need a definition of sin.

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The essence of sin is self-love, period! If you are not loving your neighbor as you naturally love yourself, then you are sinning!

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The law does not condemn self-love. In fact it commands one to love a neighbor as one loves one's own self.

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And there in is your problem! You believe Satan's lie....What else can I say? Well for one the cross of Christ proves that self-love is sin. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? He was saying that He loves us more than Himself. That is God’s agape!

Ellen White agrees: ”The lover of self is a transgressor of the law.” [CC 299]

As long as you persist on “limiting sin” to certain actions (as did the Pharisees) you will continue to push your brand of law. You will continue to insist that believers are “under the law.” This is why I oppose your message….

[Robert]

Gerry would you do what is in red?

The fact that I live for "self" proves that I am a sinner. I am selfish...I love myself first and foremost and if anything is left over I might help others....Why? Mortgages, cars, etc.. all these “things” prove I am totally consumed with myself....That translates to sinner, not law-keeper.

Just because I subjectively keep the law as it is written (i.e., how it reads) does not mean I am being selfless. The fact is I am being partly selfless....That's called partial obedience!

Jesus stated something that you need to be aware of...He said, "You [the believer] do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked...." He goes on to say that what you need is “salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.”

Have you seen my latest signature? Here’s what it says:

• “We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"!

What does Christ crucifixion have to do with all this? It has everything….Let me illustrate:

[:"red"]I don’t know if you are married or if you have grown children or not? I will assume you are married and love your wife as yourself. If so then this illustration might show you what I mean by “falling short”!?!

Let’s say that some thief breaks into your home while your wife is there (God forbid of course). He doesn't realize someone is home....Not only is he a thief, but he has a deep hatred of women. Finding her there, he precedes to have his way with her. After that encounter he methodically tortures her until she gives up the ghost.

You come home and realizing what has happened you immediately call the police. To make this illustration short, they find the murderer and a court day is set. He is found guilty, but you stand up and say, “I want this man to go free, I will take the penalty of his crime on myself. I will die his death!”

The courtroom gasps! The judge, albeit startled, says “Are you in your right mind? This man is a cold-blooded murder….He deserves the worst kind of death possible! And you want to die in his place?”

You reply, “Not only do I want to take his punishment (death), but I want him to have everything I own….I want him to enjoy the things I have…my cars, my home, my bank account, everything!” The judge replies, “You are mad – this is unheard of!!!”[/]

Well Gerry, that in a nutshell is what Christ did for His enemies – His murderers. What does this prove? It proves that Christ loved His enemies more than He loves Himself.

You see Christ as man could not see beyond the grave. In fact EGW says, “He could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him the coming forth from the grave a conqueror….” Why?

When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).

Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. Then read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Keep these two things in mind: Christ was God-dependent, and He was dependent on the Father for the resurrection.

Do you know what the Father did on the cross? Christ cried out: “Father, Father why have you forsaken me?” What He meant is not “Why are you leaving me for three days?” but, “Why have You abandoned Me?”

Do you know what that meant to Christ? It meant that the hope of the resurrection went with that abandonment. When the Father forsook Him in terms of Christ’s feeling, then the hope of the resurrection went with it.

The issue He faced was not to screw up His will power and say, “I’ll hold on for a few hours or for three days.” That is no sacrifice for a God who lives in eternity. The issue was good-bye to life forever, never again to see His Father, never again to go back to heaven. It meant to give up His glory, to give up His life.

Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners [His enemies] Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

In other words, the supreme sacrifice is that Jesus was willing to accept our curse and give us His life in exchange. It was not a question of saving Himself and the world. He could not do that. He had to make a choice between the world and Himself. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? I hope you will never forget this; [:"blue"] He was saying that He loves us more than Himself.[/] That is why the Spirit of law demands that we love our neighbors as we naturally love ourselves!

Now do you see that you are falling short of God’s selfless, agape love??? If so your eyes have been opened! Therefore, by the works of the law, no one will declared righteousness in His sight, for by the law comes the knowledge of sin (i.e., your sinfulness!)

[Robert]

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Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom

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Come on, "the law" does not give freedom....It condemns...it puts you in death row! It is a yoke of bondage to sinners....* It demands perfection!!!

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Take away all the traffic laws and see how safe & free you are to drive. Gerry

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There you go again comparing apples to oranges! Sure we need traffic laws. But lets face it most keep these laws out of fear - fear of a ticket or going to jail.

If this world is so fantastic because of its laws, why are we killing each other? Why the competition in sports, business, etc....

We live in a world dominated by self...We live in a world where the rich get Washington to legislate laws that benefit them. [i call the rich corporate America]....We use the Chinese by paying them literally pennies on the hour while the working class here lose their jobs....Where are your rules, Gerry?

Yes, I suppose it beats the alternative (anarchy), but you very well know that's where it is going! Rules do not change people because rules work off of fear and sooner or later people won't care....

Look at Brian Nichols....He murdered four individuals (and another is in critical condition). Why didn't rules stop him? Because in his mind's eye he was done dirty! First his girl friend, that he lived with for 7 years, cheated on him. What does he do? Loses it and rapes her.

The jury was hung and in many states that means you are free...but not in Georgia! So here he is thinking he is free and the judge immediately decides to go after him again. I guess he thought it was double jeopardy....Anyway here we have a well-educated man, whose family says was easy going, letting loose on those who were trying to ruin his life. That's how I think he looked at this situation.

Did the law stop him? No! The law can only deal out justice now that he has been apprehended. But in reality in the worldly sense he wins because taking his life does not bring back the four who are dead.

What prompted him do this? Self-preservation - the love of self!!! There's the problem and the only solution is Christ.

You might be obeying the law of the land (and that is good), but on the other hand you and I are failing miserably at the spirit of God's law....Lucky for you and I that we are not "under the law."

Remember what Ellen White said concerning "fear"? Here:

• Love to God is the very foundation of religion. To engage in His service merely from hope of reward or fear of punishment would avail nothing. Open apostasy would not be more offensive to God than hypocrisy and mere formal worship.

[there buster]

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Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. Then read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Keep these two things in mind: Christ was God-dependent, and He was dependent on the Father for the resurrection.

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Guess this must be mistaken, then:

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17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. John 10:17-18

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It's a tough choice. Whom to believe. Robert??? John the apsotle? Robert? John?

[benherndon]

LHC, you seem to think those texts identify the Law of Moses being the 'law of freedom and liberty'. If so, as gently as possible I want to say---the New Testament does not support such a conclusion.

But for you, I suspect it will take a very long time to get that 'vail' removed from your programmed way of thinking about spiritual matters. It is confusing you.

In the meantime you are still a 'believer' -- so your salvation is not at stake----only your teaching, if any, needs to be updated to New Testament level.

Ben

[Taylor]

Dr. Ben, I have to say I don't agree with you, on some things. The God of the OT is the same as the NT and God doesn't change. But I do appreciate a great deal your gentle attitude and the lack of name calling I see in some other's post. I see Jesus in your attitude and I appreciate it. To me, who cares if we are right or wrong, if our attitude is one that is not becoming to a Christian?! Knowing the truth is important and we should search for it as for hidden treasure, but if Jesus isn't in our lives we will be vindictive and mean spirited. The truth never changes and obviously what I think is truth and what you think is truth is different but we need to be be patient with each other. God isn't finished with any of us yet. : )

Thanks for being kind.

[Robert]

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John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.”

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Then John seems to contradict himself in 10:18

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“No one has taken it [My life] away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.

This command I received from My Father

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This doesn't deny that Jesus, as man, wasn't totally dependent on His Father! Remember that Christ, as God, laid a side the independent use of His divinity. If that wasn't true then His cry, "My Father, my Father, why have you forsaken Me?" was a cleverly disguised act. Divinity is omniscient and if Jesus as man used His Deity, then He would have seen the Father's face.

But the Bible (and EGW) says that He could not:

• The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. [Why?] [:"red"] Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror[/], or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt

  the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race [i.e., the 2nd death]. [DA 753]

• He who had said, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again," came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Humanity died: divinity did not die. In His divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. [FLB 51]

[benherndon]

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You are mistaken that the law has been abolished. Gerry on the other hand is mistaken that believers are "under the law"! Both of you guys need correcting....Yes I know you are doctors and I am just a lowly electronic technician, but that doesn't mean that you guys are necessarily right....

Rob

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>>>>I was recently asked by a youmg Mexican/American if one has to be smart to be a doctor. I told him that absolutely not!---the only proof that doctors are dumb is that they ARE doctors!! Only a fool would become a doctor today!

---just kidding, sort of. One does NOT have to be 'smart' to become a doctor. Reasonable average disciplined intelligence is all it takes along with committment, of course. So, Rob, I'm not as smart as you are!!! No kidding!! Gerry is probably smarter than most but not me. I happen to know what my IQ was/is and it wasn't anything to be proud about. However by hard work and memorizing like everything I did get through in the upper third which is considered 'pretty good'--but it certainly wasn't because I was smart!! (Actually it was my handsomeness combined with polished personality!!! NO KIDDING!!-----[ ] )

By digging like I did in med school I studied the Bible beginning when I got to be about 50 yrs old. I learned very little new from reading the OT. SDAs are pretty good on the OT. But when I got into the NT I found that SDAs were NOT pretty good! It was working in the NT that I found our church sadly out of sync. I've been trying since then to be a little one of those voices trying to get the people I know to see the NT in a different light than that which has been our way for all my life.

We will never get the 'vail' out of our way until we classify EGW as 'pastoral' instead of 'prophetic'. She was a Godly and saintly lady with many talents and a charismatic personality--but she did not understand the teaching of the New Testament very well. The fact that she fell for the 1843 and '44 dates proves she did not understand the NT teachings very well.

But I love this church and its peoples. You know, the Lutheran church followed all of Luther to the best of its ability for a century or two, same with Calvin and Wesley, but eventually most churches wander back to "Bible-only" in their teachings and beliefs eventually---partly abandoning some of the thoughts and teachings of their founders.

Ben

[there buster]

Well, at least you're consistent. Your two quotes contradict each other, too.

[benherndon]

Thank you, Taylor, and same to you by the way! But, I've been known to lose it, also. So when I say it I mean it to myself also.

Ben

[Robert]

Quote:

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Well, at least you're consistent. Your two quotes contradict each other, too.

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No Ed, it is your mind that is playing the contradiction! "Free your mind!" Let me help....

"The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb." [DA 753] Why not? He had voluntarily relinquished the independent use of His divinity to His Father. Hence, as man, He couldn't see into the future. When He was dying He was saying goodbye to life forever.

"He who had said, 'I lay down my life, that I might take it again,' came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Humanity died: divinity did not die."[FLB 51]

What was that? Humanity died...not divinity! Jesus as man died....His divinity was in His Father's hands. Sunday morning the Father released Christ's deity and hence Christ as God came from the grave with life that was in Himself!

Invite Jack to your church, he will help you understand the gospel. I am serious...You'll love it!

Rob

[Robert]

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SDAs are pretty good on the OT. But when I got into the NT I found that SDAs were NOT pretty good!

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Yes and that is because many of them are old covenant people!

I remember when I was being trained in legalism.... Funny, the legalists hardly ever quoted from Romans or Galatians. Once I understood Paul I understood the gospel.

As to people that helped me along the way, well, my hat is off to:

1] Morris Venden

2] Robert Wieland

3] Jack Sequeira

I started breaking away from legalism through Pastor Venden's books and sermons on righteousness by faith.

Pastor Wieland opened my eyes to the fact that the SDA church, back in 1888, rejected the third angel's message (justification by faith).

Pastor Jack (my buddy) opened my eyes to the gospel...the good news as it is "in Christ."

But the person who really gets the credit is Jesus....He is the one that placed these guys in my path....

[LifeHiscost]

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But the person who really gets the credit is Jesus....He is the one that placed these guys in my path....

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He placed the Bible in your path long before those individuals came along. What do you suppose was the trouble in finding His truth directly from the Word first?

Lift Jesus up!!

[Robert]

I let the traditional Adventists interpret it for me....Why? They said they had truth and the proof was that they had a prophet in their midst and that they were the remnant, commandment keeping Church of Bible prophecy.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

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I let the traditional Adventists interpret it for me....Why?

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I'm probably not classified as a "traditional" Adventist, whatever that is, but I'm sure God knows of as many reasons for giving answers as there are unique individuals who need them, and as there are unique individuals willing to pass on there hypothesis.

[:"red"] "Do not trust in princes,In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation." [/] Psalms 146:3 NASB

Lift Jesus up!!

[Robert]

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I'm probably not classified as a "traditional" Adventist, whatever that is?

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Traditional or Historic Adventism! is about the same.

Historic Adventists have refused to grow in knowledge. They have drawn a circle about themselves and say, "this is truth" and we will not examine anything other than what was established when our church was founded. They are heavy on law and use Ellen White profusely to back their theology.

Rob