Losing salvation

[fccool]

From my understanding, losing salvation would not be an appropriate name for touching on this issue.

One can reject God's gift all together, but can we inadvertently and unknowingly lose it. Losing something does carry the context of being unaware that you in fact lost something.

I've seen many Adventist preachers keep people in fear of accidentally losing their salvation if they don't diligently work to keep it. They don't say it out loud, but such are the implications.

We paint God as is sitting up there and observing our actions, and the moment we've crossed that line of "too many mistakes" he goes : "Go the the beginning of the board, and don't pass Go... you'll have to start with square one".

So, my obvious question to anyone would be, what's the threshold of losing one's salvation? Where's the line?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

From my understanding, loosing salvation would not be an appropriate name for touching on this issue.

One can reject God's gift all together, but can we inadvertently and unknowingly loose it. Loosing something does carry the context of being unaware that you in fact lost something.

I've seen many Adventist preachers keep people in fear of accidentally loosing their salvation if they don't diligently work to keep it. They don't say it out loud, but such are the implications.

We paint God as is sitting up there and observing our actions, and the moment we've crossed that line of "too many mistakes" he goes : "Go the the beginning of the board, and don't pass Go... you'll have to start with square one".

So, my obvious question to anyone would be, what's the threshold of loosing one's salvation? Where's the line?

I'm sure Robert will respond to this, since it deals with works.

btw, I changed the topic spelling. "Loose" means "not tight"... "Lose" means that it is lost.

[fccool]

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btw, I changed the topic spelling. "Loose" means "not tight"... "Lose" means that it is lost.

Thank you. After so many years I'd think that I have a good hold on English language :)

[pnattmbtc]

Clearly God wants us to be saved. It seems unlikely to me that God would allow this to happen without informing one of the need to repent.

[fccool]

We, on Adventist side, tend to gravitate towards the view that most people outside of Adventist faith are not really saved, they think that they are. At least that's what I hear.

Yet, I don't really believe that this is the case. It would mean that unless we follow God in perfect understanding... He won't save us.

So, the next logical step would be how we view Sabbath in light of this view. I understand the Sabbath understanding to be a result, yet not a means to salvation. Sabbath falls into the area of sanctification, or a result (sometimes gradual, sometimes immediate). Yet, there may be a time down the road when people will have to make a clear choice.

[Gerr]

From my understanding, losing salvation would not be an appropriate name for touching on this issue.

One can reject God's gift all together, but can we inadvertently and unknowingly lose it. Losing something does carry the context of being unaware that you in fact lost something.

Consider this passage: "Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away [ [pararrhueo /par·ar·hroo·eh·o/] v. From 3844 and the alternate of 4482; GK 4184; AV translates as “let slip” once. 1 to glide by: lest we be carried by, pass by. 1a lest the salvation which these things heard show us how to obtain, slip away from us. 1b a thing escapes me. 1c slips my mind. Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect [ameleo /am·el·eh·o/] v. From 1 (as a negative particle) and 3199; GK 288; Five occurrences; AV translates as “neglect” twice, “make light of” once, “regard not” once, and “be negligent” once. 1 to be careless of, to neglect.

Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard,.." Heb 2:1-3 ESV.

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,..." Phil 2:12 ESV

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I've seen many Adventist preachers keep people in fear of accidentally losing their salvation if they don't diligently work to keep it. They don't say it out loud, but such are the implications.

Are you married? Do you "work" at your relationship? Is it possible that if you don't both work at it that one of these days you find you are living with a stranger? Or worse yet, you are suddenly served with divorce papers because you have grown apart and no longer have much in common?

"Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." 1 Cor 9:25-27 ESV

[fccool]

The issue is not of "not working at the relationship". All couples work on relationship to some degree. The issue is of commitment.

When I get married, I marry with understanding that the diverse is not an option... no matter how hard the marriage will get. I will not leave my wife if she makes a mistake and cheats on me.

Yet what we are saying is if at the altar I would say I would not leave you no matter what, my wife would say... "Ok, I guess that's a license for me to go and sleep around". How ludicrous is that? Is she says that, then she is not truly married to me is she?

[Gerr]

Read Heb 2:1-3 again. Think about the "drift away" and the "neglect". They do not imply any ACTIVE turning away from a commitment.

[pnattmbtc]

We, on Adventist side, tend to gravitate towards the view that most people outside of Adventist faith are not really saved, they think that they are. At least that's what I hear.

I'm not denying what you say may be true, but this isn't something I've heard. Salvation depends upon the light one has, and most Adventists I'm know are aware of this principle, and accept that there are non-SDA's that will be saved, provided they believe in Christ.

[pnattmbtc]

Read Heb 2:1-3 again. Think about the "drift away" and the "neglect". They do not imply any ACTIVE turning away from a commitment.

[fccool]

Hebrews 2:1 is a continuation of Hebrews 1 and precedent to Hebrews 3. You know better than that, Gerry . It should literally read:

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For this reason we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things heard, that we should not slip away.

For this reason? For what reason?

The fact that God has revealed Himself in these last days in His Son and not angels. As important as these angels are in God's revelation, they are infinitely inferior to their Creator who is Jesus Christ. And though they played a role in delivering messages about the God to God's people, Christ Himself has now come into our midst to speak for Himself.

What is he warning them off... DON'T SLIDE BACK INTO JUDAISM by ignoring the things that you've heard. It's not a warning to those who are not keeping the law. Jews kept the law like we never could, and this message was written to them (hence Hebrews).

Let's not latch on to the word "drift away", and completely ignore the reason for paying closer attention. The problem with Hebrews was outlined in Chapter 1 in this case.

So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, Let all God's angels worship him.

Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

.......

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We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Do you see what it's talking about now?

[Gerr]

1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. NASB.

Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. ESV.

We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. NIV

So we must be more careful to follow what we were taught. Then we will not stray away from the truth. NCV

So we must listen very carefully to the truth we have heard, or we may drift away from it. NLT

That is why we must hold on all the more firmly to the truths we have heard, so that we will not be carried away. GNT

Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. NKJV

Because of this it behoveth us more abundantly to take heed to the things heard, lest we may glide aside, YLT

It’s crucial that we keep a firm grip on what we’ve heard so that we don’t drift off. Message

Because of God's supreme revelation in Christ in chapter 1, Paul is saying that it is even MORE crucial that we pay the closest attention to what we heard lest we "drift away."

I don't believe there will be anyone in heaven by accident. People will be there by a conscious decision and persevering effort. But I do believe there will be many in hell just by pure neglect.

I stand by what I posted.

[pnattmbtc]

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Because of God's supreme revelation in Christ in chapter 1, Paul is saying that it is even MORE crucial that we pay the closest attention to what we heard lest we "drift away."

I don't believe there will be anyone in heaven by accident. People will be there by a conscious decision and persevering effort. But I do believe there will be many in hell just by pure neglect.

I stand by what I posted.

I don't see how what you posted addresses that fact that to be lost one must resist the Holy Spirit. Also, it seems to be rather a negative view of God, to think that He wouldn't do anything to save someone who was not paying close enough attention. Doesn't God care if we're saved or not? He's just going to sit idly by and let us drift away?

Here's another statement presenting the same idea:

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"No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me." None will ever come to Christ, save those who respond to the drawing of the Father's love. But God is drawing all hearts unto Him, and only those who resist His drawing will refuse to come to Christ. {DA 387.4}

Only those who resist God's drawing will refuse to come to Christ.

[Guest]

Jesus talked about a group of people who will think they have every right to go to heaven. But they will be wrong. They are sure beyond any doubt that they are saved. But they're not.

Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out demons? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. Matt 7:21-23

That pretty well closes the case on this discussion for me.

Who is this group who works eniquity but believes they are saved?

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2Th 2:10-12

Unrighteousness is the same thing as eniquity. Obviously they have bought into something that isn't true. But they do believe it. It says so right there in the text, that they believe a lie.

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

[Woody]

Truth is over-rated. We all have a different degree of truth. And all of us will be lacking to some degree until we see Jesus in Heaven and He then fills us in.

[Guest]

Truth only seems over-rated to those who believe truth doesn't matter.

[Gerr]

We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. Heb 2:1 NIV.

[Gerr]

Truth is over-rated.

Well, I suppose the One who said, "I AM THE TRUTH" is over-rated!!!

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We all have a different degree of truth. And all of us will be lacking to some degree until we see Jesus in Heaven and He then fills us in.

Buy truth, and do not sell it; buy wisdom, instruction, and understanding. Prov 23:23 ESV

[Woody]

Talking with cons is SO difficult.

[olger]

Truth only seems over-rated to those who believe truth doesn't matter.

YES.

[Lutz13]

Truth only seems over-rated to those who believe truth doesn't matter.

And why anyone wouldn't want to find the truth is beyond me. As Jesus said "the truth shall set you free". One may think that they have the truth, but if it doesn't set them free, it isn't truth.

As an example, if you're worried about whether you will be saved or not, you haven't found truth.

[pnattmbtc]

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We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. Heb 2:1 NIV.

Salvation by paying careful attention. Make sure you pay more careful attention, so you won't be lost. The Gospel!

[John317]

According to 1 John 5: 12, anyone who has the Son has eternal life.

1 John 5:12

Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

The question is, what does it mean to have the Son, and do we have Him or do we not?

Are we children of God or children of the Devil? The Bible says there's a real difference and we can know it.

Here's how the Bible says people will know:

1 John 3:1-10

See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. [2] Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. [3] And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

[4] Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. [5] You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. [6] No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. [7] Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. [8] Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. [9] No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. [10] By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

And this: 1 John 2:3-6

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, [5] but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: [6] whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

[teresaq]

seems like Jesus, our Salvation, got lost sight of a little bit. how quickly we slip into that and start trying to do it ourselves.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

[teresaq]

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1 John 2:3-6

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, [5] but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: [6] whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

yes, we always seem to get stuck on the first part, forgetting the rest of the context..."whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked." how did Jesus walk? what did He do, day in and day out?