Losing salvation

[Gerr]

Well ... I thought it was clear. At least teresa understood. But I can see how it could be interpreted in other ways.

SEE??? It's not just cons like me who is having a problem communicating with you or understanding your communication!!!Communication IS a two way street. When problems arise, it could be with the sender or the receiver.

ps

We should ask Teresa if she understood your intent at the first reading? Remember that women have an extra sensory gift that poor men have. One time my wife's niece saw picture of her (wife's) brother-in-law. She immediately said, "that man runs around!" And she was right!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Well ... I thought it was clear. At least teresa understood. But I can see how it could be interpreted in other ways.

it took a minute, , but i agree with pnattmbtc. either asking what you meant, or disregarding your comment entirely, would have been much more mature, i think.

Perhaps, but if I have to ask every person to clarify every statement they make just so I did not misunderstand what they said, that would make communication tedious and impractical.

Would it not have been much simpler and more mature to juust say, that's not what I meant? Instead of blaming the other person for the difficulty?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The Bible also says this:

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. Rom 10:17 ESV.

How is that for good news? Is this salvation by hearing?

I don't quite understand your point. What happened to those who did not have the written scripture or those who were illiterate and could not read... like most of human population until recent history.

Thanks for asking to clarify. Recall that you and pnat objected to my Heb 2:1-2 quote that one could lose one's salvation by drifting away or through neglect, that to keep one's salvation, we should pay very close attention. His retort was that this sounded like the good news is salvation by paying close attention! So I brought out the scriptures about hearing, staying awake, and staying sober, hence the questions, is this salvation by hearing? staying sober? or salvation by staying awake?

[Woody]

Quote:

"Thanks for asking to clarify.

Perhaps, but if I have to ask every person to clarify every statement they make just so I did not misunderstand what they said, that would make communication tedious and impractical."

[Gerr]

I strive for transparency in what I say so that someone can take at face value what I say. I may not always succeed, and when someone asks for clarification, that's quite all right. But if I were to say something in which I expect someone else to guess what I truely meant, I should not be offended if they guess wrong and blame them for difficulty in communication.

[fccool]

I strive for transparency in what I say so that someone can take at face value what I say. I may not always succeed, and when someone asks for clarification, that's quite all right. But if I were to say something in which I expect someone else to guess what I truely meant, I should not be offended if they guess wrong and blame them for difficulty in communication.

When you answer by means of quoting out of context scripture, that is followed by very short exposition on what you believe the scripture is talking about... that will probably be the rule of thumb rather than exception

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Well ... I thought it was clear. At least teresa understood. But I can see how it could be interpreted in other ways.

ps

We should ask Teresa if she understood your intent at the first reading? ...

no, i waited til i did know before responding...something ive learned over the "centuries". makes for better communication--unless we prefer taking offense 24-7. :)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

...it took a minute, , but i agree with pnattmbtc. either asking what you meant, or disregarding your comment entirely, would have been much more mature, i think.

Perhaps, but if I have to ask every person to clarify every statement they make just so I did not misunderstand what they said, that would make communication tedious and impractical.

would it? or would it make for more Christlike communication and a better understanding of others?

[John317]

The key point I've been bringing out is that there is resistance, and that God loves you too much to allow you to slip away without making it clear to you that you're in trouble. You have to "fight against the pricks" if you want to be lost.

This is true, and many do successfully fight against the pricks of conscience until their conscience is burned so they don't recognize the voice of God. People reach the point where the voice of God sounds to them as if it's in error, and the voice of the Devil sounds as if it were the voice of God. The Bible teaches that God allows people to be deceived if they prefer their lies to the truth.

Ellen White says that only a small number of people will be finally saved, compared to the number of people who have lived.

[John317]

...we all believe what we have is "truth"? and try to inflict that understanding on others?

while what we have is only a partial understanding?

No one has ALL the truth, of course, but God doesn't want us to wait until we know all the truth before we talk to others about it. God wants us to help build each other up with what each person perceives to be the truth. Every little bit of truth helps.

There's also the fact that some people have more truth than others because they've studied longer and may be more teachable and ready to learn from the Holy Spirit. So we always need to be ready to accept truth from whatever source, even from a child and people one might not want to learn from. For instance, there are Catholics who could teach SDAs lessons about love and forgiveness, etc. And there are people of other races who could teach prejudiced people if they had open minds.

These all have partial understanding.

[teresaq]

I would say neglect *involves* resisting the Spirit. That is, you cannot neglect without resisting.

The key point I've been bringing out is that there is resistance, and that God loves you too much to allow you to slip away without making it clear to you that you're in trouble. You have to "fight against the pricks" if you want to be lost.

which makes it God-centered instead of us-centered. i think if we concentrate on Gods love and care for us we are more apt to respond as He would have us.

if we concentrate on ourselves we are more apt to always stay in the negative...to lose sight of His promises...

[John317]

...To me it seems intuitively obvious that God won't let anyone be lost without a fight. In my life, there have been a couple of occasions where God revealed Himself to me in a truly striking way. If God would do this for me, why not for others? How does anyone know about God? Isn't it because God reveals Himself and makes an appeal? He's not going to let people be lost without trying to do something about it, right? How could that make any sense?

This is a good example of where human reasoning can get people into trouble if we put greater trust in it than in what God has revealed through His prophets.

God does indeed want every human who's ever lived to be saved, but we have to understand the truth, and that is that most people will be lost. Only a relatively small group of people will be finally saved in God's kingdom.

So God will lose many "fights" to save people. He could save them against their wills, but He refuses to do it.

The Bible contains many warnings, and among these are the examples of the Israelites whom God saved from Egyptian slavery only to have most of them rot in the desert, never to make it into the Promised Land.

Quote:

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. [13] But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. [14] For we share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. [15] As it is said,

"Today, if you hear his voice,

do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."

[16] For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? [17] And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? [18] And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? [19] So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. [2] For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. [3] For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,

"As I swore in my wrath,

'They shall not enter my rest,' "

although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4] For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works." [5] And again in this passage he said,

"They shall not enter my rest."

[6] Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, [7] again he appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,

"Today, if you hear his voice,

do not harden your hearts."

Heb. 3: 12 to 4: 7.

[fccool]

John,

How does that contradict what he is saying?

Quote:

To me it seems intuitively obvious that God won't let anyone be lost without a fight. In my life, there have been a couple of occasions where God revealed Himself to me in a truly striking way. If God would do this for me, why not for others? How does anyone know about God? Isn't it because God reveals Himself and makes an appeal? He's not going to let people be lost without trying to do something about it, right? How could that make any sense?

The example of God that lead Israel out of Egypt, who gave them multiple miracles and who done everything possible only in the end to be rejected is in fact what he is talking about above.

God did not just let them die once they started to complain by the Red see, saying that it would be better for them to stay. He's done a lot since then, and they rejected Him time after time after time... and even though they had the promise land right in front of them, they still did not believe God.

Yet, even in their wondering across the desert for 40 years, God was still with them and teaching them repentance. There's no indication that they did not realize their mistake. Let's not equate the loss of physical promise land with ultimate loss of Heavenly promise land.

I believe that his point is precisely that... God does not just let you "slip away". It has to be in-your-face rejection, rather than mere ignorance.

[SivartM]

God does indeed want every human who's ever lived to be saved, but we have to understand the truth, and that is that most people will be lost. Only a relatively small group of people will be finally saved in God's kingdom.

So God will lose many "fights" to save people. He could save them against their wills, but He refuses to do it.

I thought Jesus told a story about a shepherd who lost only one sheep and went searching for it far and near... I don't remember the part where he gave up looking for the sheep.

[John317]

God does indeed want every human who's ever lived to be saved, but we have to understand the truth, and that is that most people will be lost. Only a relatively small group of people will be finally saved in God's kingdom.

So God will lose many "fights" to save people. He could save them against their wills, but He refuses to do it.

Originally Posted By: SivartM

I thought Jesus told a story about a shepherd who lost only one sheep and went searching for it far and near... I don't remember the part where he gave up looking for the sheep.

Yes, God does go in search of lost sheep, but when sheep decide they want to be lost and stay lost, God lets them go. God honors our freedom and doesn't compel people to do His will, even if it means it will hurt Him to see so many people lost.

That point is reached here:

Ephraim is joined to idols;

leave him alone. Hos. 4: 17

Rev. 22:11

"Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."

2 Peter 1:1-11

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

[2] May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

[3] His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, [4] by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. [5] For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, [6] and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, [7] and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. [8] For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [9] For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. [10] Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. [11] For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[fccool]

God does not just let them go, John! He is persistently expecting them back, while still providing their every need. He does not cuts them loose... the entire point for this thread.

On top of that, people leaving church or denomination does not mean they leaving God all together. It would be a very narrow view of God to think that people reject God when they reject religion.

[John317]

How does that contradict what he is saying?

"To me it seems intuitively obvious that God won't let anyone be lost without a fight. In my life, there have been a couple of occasions where God revealed Himself to me in a truly striking way. If God would do this for me, why not for others? How does anyone know about God? Isn't it because God reveals Himself and makes an appeal? He's not going to let people be lost without trying to do something about it, right? How could that make any sense?"

... God does not just let you "slip away". It has to be in-your-face rejection, rather than mere ignorance.

The point I'm making is that people become "lost" without even realizing it. It's usually a slow, gradual process, and is the accumulation of many "small choices." Take Judas, for example. He didn't know until right up to the end that He was lost. Significantly Judas was in the very presence of Christ and heard His teaching, yet he didn't recognize his lostness. It doesn't mean God doesn't try to save people-- it means they didn't choose to acknowledge God's voice speaking to them. It's not up to us to decide when God will impress us with His Spirit to do His will.

My second point is that Christ's words show that there will be many people lost who were sure they'd be saved. They will be surprised to find themselves on the outside looking in.

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

[Woody]

God does not just let them go, John! He is persistently expecting them back, while still providing their every need. He does not cuts them loose... the entire point for this thread.

On top of that, people leaving church or denomination does not mean they leaving God all together. It would be a very narrow view of God to think that people reject God when they reject religion.

This is a very important point here fccool. This goes along with what I feel is important in that 'truth' is so often imposed on us with people saying ... if you don't believe in God the way WE believe in God ... then He will leave you and not come after you any longer.

I believe that many people are rejecting 'religion' and rejecting 'God'. But rightly so. They are rejecting a wrongly portrayed God. And again ... rightly so. Many are rejecting God because of various reasons. But God knows their heart. This is what matters. It is the heart. And ONLY God can read that.

[fccool]

The point I'm making is that people become "lost" without even realizing it. It's usually a slow, gradual process, and is the accumulation of many "small choices." Take Judas, for example. He didn't know until right up to the end that He was lost. Significantly Judas was in the very presence of Christ and heard His teaching, yet he didn't recognize his lostness. It doesn't mean God doesn't try to save people-- it means they didn't choose to acknowledge God's voice speaking to them. It's not up to us to decide when God will impress us with His Spirit to do His will.

My second point is that Christ's words show that there will be many people lost who were sure they'd be saved. They will be surprised to find themselves on the outside looking in.

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

What does I never knew you mean in that verse. Does it mean that He knew them at one point of time and not He does not? This is not what we are talking about here though.

I would understand it in terms of the prodigal son analogy that Christ told. The parable was not as much about the son, but rather about father and the jealous brother. There was no point of time when the father turned his back on the son. He was waiting. I don't think that God merely waits as per parable, but He is actively doing everything possible to get our attention.

[teresaq]

On top of that, people leaving church or denomination does not mean they leaving God all together. It would be a very narrow view of God to think that people reject God when they reject religion.

agreed.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: fccool

God does not just let them go, John! He is persistently expecting them back, while still providing their every need. He does not cuts them loose... the entire point for this thread.

On top of that, people leaving church or denomination does not mean they leaving God all together. It would be a very narrow view of God to think that people reject God when they reject religion.

This is a very important point here fccool. This goes along with what I feel is important in that 'truth' is so often imposed on us with people saying ... if you don't believe in God the way WE believe in God ... then He will leave you and not come after you any longer.

I believe that many people are rejecting 'religion' and rejecting 'God'. But rightly so. They are rejecting a wrongly portrayed God. And again ... rightly so. Many are rejecting God because of various reasons. But God knows their heart. This is what matters. It is the heart. And ONLY God can read that.

now this was understandable-and well written!! good work! :)

[John317]

God does not just let them go, John! He is persistently expecting them back, while still providing their every need. He does not cuts them loose... the entire point for this thread.

God doesn't let people go until they are settled into rebellion against Him so that they cannot be moved. People decide by their own choices when God can't do any more to save them.

Didn't God finally let go of the people of Israel?

Isn't there soon coming an end of human probation?

Some people are closing their probation now. 5 T 18; PP 140

"While the man of business is absorped in the persuit of gain, while the pleasure lover is seeking indulgence, while the daughter of fashion is arranging her adornment, it may be in that hour the Judge of all the earth will pronoune the sentence, 'Thou are weighed in the balance and found wanting.'" GC 491

As the people of Noah's day "knew not until the Flood came, and took them all away; so," in the words of our Saviour, "shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:39. When the professed people of God are uniting with the world, living as they live, and joining with them in forbidden pleasures; when the luxury of the world becomes the luxury of the church; when the marriage bells are chiming, and all are looking forward to many years of worldly prosperity--then, suddenly as the

lightning flashes from the heavens, will come the end of their bright visions and delusive hopes. GC 338, 339.

Hebrews 3:7-19

Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,

"Today, if you hear his voice,

[8] do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,

on the day of testing in the wilderness,

[9] where your fathers put me to the test

and saw my works [10] for forty years.

Therefore I was provoked with that generation,

and said, 'They always go astray in their heart;

they have not known my ways.'

[11] As I swore in my wrath,

'They shall not enter my rest.' "

[12] Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. [13] But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. [14] For we share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. [15] As it is said,

"Today, if you hear his voice,

do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."

[16] For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? [17] And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? [18] And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? [19] So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

Originally Posted By: fccool

On top of that, people leaving church or denomination does not mean they leaving God all together. It would be a very narrow view of God to think that people reject God when they reject religion.

I didn't say anything about leaving church or denomination. You may have misunderstood something I said. Let me know if you'd like me to clarify something.

There'll be many people saved who at one time or another left the church, but they won't have stayed out of the church.

I don't equate the SDA message with "religion." I equate rejection of God with rejection of the Good News and of the Bible.

[Woody]

Quote:

now this was understandable-and well written!! good work!

Thanks. I'm trying hard. Haven't arrived yet. But still workin' on it. And I appreciate your feedback. It's always welcome.

[pnattmbtc]

Overall I believe that is the case. But there WILL be that group of people who believe they are saved, when they are actually lost. Jesus wasn't lying when He said that.

Sure, but it takes a LOT of resistance of the Holy Spirit to get to this point.

[pnattmbtc]

This is true, and many do successfully fight against the pricks of conscience until their conscience is burned so they don't recognize the voice of God. People reach the point where the voice of God sounds to them as if it's in error, and the voice of the Devil sounds as if it were the voice of God. The Bible teaches that God allows people to be deceived if they prefer their lies to the truth.