Guest Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Can you blame her for losing trust in humanity? No not at all. But then our trust is not supposed to be in humanity, but in God. It appears that she lost her trust in God, because of something humanity did to her. And it seems also that you are co-signing her notion that this was somehow God's fault, or the church's fault. There are many many cases where people use the actions of others as an excuse to turn their back on God. It makes it easier to say: I don't believe or obey God, because after all, look what He allowed to happen over here. That way they can justify their actions in their mind. And to others. It's kind of like the sober alcoholic who says: "I will stay sober as long as such and such never happens. But if that happens, I will drink again". As soon as he sets this condition on his sobriety, he actually sets a chain of events into motion, that will bring about such and such. And invariably the very condition that his sobriety is now based upon, WILL happen. This may not be a good analogy, but it is another example of something being used as an excuse. Quote
teresaq Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Perhaps, but if I have to ask every person to clarify every statement they make just so I did not misunderstand what they said, that would make communication tedious and impractical. Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda) would it? or would it make for more Christlike communication and a better understanding of others? Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo And just what did you mean by that?:) teresaq, speaking of "more Christlike communciation and better understanding of others"-- would you care to communicate clearly here and explain what you mean? sure, be happy to. what is it you are not understanding? Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
teresaq Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Quote: Give some examples of "his spiritually/mentally/emotionally abusive church" that has caused people who "stop believing in god." Sure, I'll give you an example from personal acquaintance I know. She was a good childhood friend of my wife. When she was 14 when her mom got a a live in boyfriend. All three of them would go to church as a family, but the boyfriend started raping the girl. All three of them wold come to church like nothing happened, and the girl just kept quiet. She finally had enough courage to tell her mom, and the mom did nothing. She did make the guy move out, but kept up the relationship. The girl did not understand how her mom could betray her like that, and she ran away. Luckily, the family that adopted her had father who was psychologist. After hearing the story, he pressed charges and the guy was arrested and did some time. The mother and the rapist guy got back together after he got out of jail. Both of them are back in church, the girl wants nothing to do with church anymore. How do you think God sees this situation? Do you think he will punish the girl? Who misrepresented God in this scenario? Can you blame her for losing trust in humanity? I know quite a bit of cases such as these. yes, while this may be an extreme case, there are many different kinds of cases. the problem is, is that those who do the abusing are not aware of it, and tend to blame the victim. co-dependents are the worst at blaming the victims. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
teresaq Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Originally Posted By: fccool Can you blame her for losing trust in humanity? No not at all. But then our trust is not supposed to be in humanity, but in God. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
Moderators John317 Posted July 24, 2010 Moderators Posted July 24, 2010 Perhaps, but if I have to ask every person to clarify every statement they make just so I did not misunderstand what they said, that would make communication tedious and impractical. Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda) would it? or would it make for more Christlike communication and a better understanding of others? Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo And just what did you mean by that?:) Originally Posted By: john3:17 teresaq, speaking of "more Christlike communciation and better understanding of others"-- would you care to communicate clearly here and explain what you mean? Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda) sure, be happy to. what is it you are not understanding? This: Originally Posted By: teresaq would it? or would it make for more Christlike communication and a better understanding of others? Please answer our fellow-moderator's question. He wants to know what exactly you meant by it, and I would as well. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
teresaq Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Please answer our fellow-moderator's question. He wants to know what exactly you meant by it, and I would as well. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
fccool Posted July 24, 2010 Author Posted July 24, 2010 Quote: and how was a child supposed to find God and have all that "faith" except through those who claimed to be christians? Exactly the point I was going to make. We forget that we represent God in whatever we do if we indeed claim to be Christians. It does not really matter whether these people were Christian's or not. The damage has been done, and to a certain degree it's permanent. If you have been betrayed by people who you trusted the most, you tend to distance yourself from anything that remotely associated with such people. In the case of the girl, the entire church knew. The case made it to the local news, and although her identity remained anonymous... she would still feel that wherever she went, people would stare at her because of the incident. It's really a horrible thing to live through. I believe that God understands, and He would make things right. Thank you, teresa, for not blaming the victim. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Quote: Ellen White says that only a small number of people will be finally saved, compared to the number of people who have lived. Where do you think she says this? Are you unaware that she makes this statement? As you have stated this, no. That is, that she said: "Compared to the number of people who have lived, only a small number of people will be finally saved." Quote: I'll find it for you and post it as soon as I do..... In general, I'm familiar with her statements on this question, and also what the Bible says. I'm just curious in regards to what you said above. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Quote: Overall I believe that is the case. But there WILL be that group of people who believe they are saved, when they are actually lost. Jesus wasn't lying when He said that. Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc Sure, but it takes a LOT of resistance of the Holy Spirit to get to this point. Yes, it does take resistance, but when people love their sins and refuse to give them up, it will be easy for them to resist Holy Spirit... It's not easy at first. I'd say it becomes easier with each rejection of the Holy Spirit. Quote: Ellen White says "few will be saved," and the lost who come up in the second resurrection will be "as numberless as the sands of the sea." This is out of context, isn't it? That is, where Ellen White says "few will be saved" is not in the same context as she speaks of the wicked as being "as numberless as the sands of the sea." Doesn't she say that many will be redeemed? Or are you thinking this is just a small number? Also, just to keep things in perspective, looking at the universe as a whole, there are far in a way more that will be saved than lost. No comparison. Quote: J:Ellen White says that only a small number of people will be finally saved, compared to the number of people who have lived. p:Where do you think she says this? J:I don't "think"-- I know where she says it. One such place is 2 T 293-294. "The word of God plainly tells us that few will be saved, and that the greater number of those, even, who are called will prove themselves unworthy of everlasting life. They will have no part in heaven, but will have their portion with Satan, and experience the second death." Of course she means relatively few, in comparison to those who lived and could have been saved. I'm asking where she said that only a small number of people will be finally saved, compared to the number who have lived. What you have quoted is something I would have expected her to say. How you worded it is not. I have a fair idea of what she says, as I've read her quite a bit. People make claims about what she said often that don't hold water. I've done the same thing by mistake, as it's easy to get ideas confused or the author of statements confused, so I'm not wishing you to take offense when I ask for a claim like this to be backed up. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
teresaq Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 ...Also, just to keep things in perspective, looking at the universe as a whole, there are far in a way more that will be saved than lost. No comparison. ...thats a thought. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
Robert Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 Ellen White says "few will be saved," and the lost who come up in the second resurrection will be "as numberless as the sands of the sea." Ellen White needs to get out more: Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, Quote
fccool Posted July 25, 2010 Author Posted July 25, 2010 Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc ...Also, just to keep things in perspective, looking at the universe as a whole, there are far in a way more that will be saved than lost. No comparison. ... thats a thought. Based on our understanding of the universe, in which the rest of the world are not fallen, why would you think of them as "will be saved"? Did Christ die for creatures who will not fall? Quote
teresaq Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 See what I mean? lol, still, seems to me some of us also have that problem... Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
pnattmbtc Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 J:Ellen White says "few will be saved," and the lost who come up in the second resurrection will be "as numberless as the sands of the sea." R:Ellen White needs to get out more: Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
fccool Posted July 26, 2010 Author Posted July 26, 2010 John as in apostle John, or the forum John? :) Quote
pnattmbtc Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 Quote: p:...Also, just to keep things in perspective, looking at the universe as a whole, there are far in a way more that will be saved than lost. No comparison. ... t:thats a thought. f:Based on our understanding of the universe, in which the rest of the world are not fallen, why would you think of them as "will be saved"? Did Christ die for creatures who will not fall? You responded to teresa, but I think you're really addressing what I wrote. I used "saved" in the sense of not being lost, which is a common usage of the term. Regarding if Christ died for creatures who did not fall (you actually said "will not fall," but it's the same point), Ellen White has a number of statements which indicate He did! Quite an interesting idea! For example, here's one: Quote: That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels...The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy. Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven...The plan of salvation, making manifest the justice and love of God, provides an eternal safeguard against defection in unfallen worlds, as well as among those whoshall be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.” The Signs of the Times, December 30, 1889 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 Quote: John as in apostle John, or the forum John? These aren't the same? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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