Losing salvation

[SivartM]

Who would you say is more likely to be saved:

1. A self-proclaimed atheist who stopped believing in god because of his spiritually/mentally/emotionally abusive church.

2. A member of that church who participates in the abuse but believes strongly in the lord.

[pnattmbtc]

p:...To me it seems intuitively obvious that God won't let anyone be lost without a fight. In my life, there have been a couple of occasions where God revealed Himself to me in a truly striking way. If God would do this for me, why not for others? How does anyone know about God? Isn't it because God reveals Himself and makes an appeal? He's not going to let people be lost without trying to do something about it, right? How could that make any sense?

J:This is a good example of where human reasoning can get people into trouble if we put greater trust in it than in what God has revealed through His prophets.

God does indeed want every human who's ever lived to be saved, but we have to understand the truth, and that is that most people will be lost. Only a relatively small group of people will be finally saved in God's kingdom.

So God will lose many "fights" to save people. He could save them against their wills, but He refuses to do it.

The Bible contains many warnings, and among these are the examples of the Israelites whom God saved from Egyptian slavery only to have most of them rot in the desert, never to make it into the Promised Land.

[fccool]

Quote:

Didn't God finally let go of the people of Israel?

I don't believe so.

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;

he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

27And this is[f] my covenant with them

when I take away their sins."[g]

28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.

God NEVER turned on his people... even in light of disobedience. And it will be a great day when they will recognize Christ as their messiah likewise.

[John317]

My second point is that Christ's words show that there will be many people lost who were sure they'd be saved. They will be surprised to find themselves on the outside looking in.

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Originally Posted By: fccool

What does I never knew you mean in that verse. Does it mean that He knew them at one point of time and not He does not? This is not what we are talking about here though.

"I never knew you" is the same as saying "We were never truly close friends." It's saying, "I don't recognize you."

Jesus will say this when He doesn't recognize His own character in people who claim to have been a follower. If we're really in Him and He in us, we will be changed to become like Him. We will keep His commandments and be walking as He walked. 1 John 2: 3-6. We will continue to reflect His character more and more until when He is revealed, we will be like Him. 2 Cor. 3: 18; 1 John 3: 2.

People may have claimed to follow Him at one time, but the Bible says,

"We share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end." Heb. 3:14

[pnattmbtc]

"I never knew you" is the same as saying "We were never truly close friends."

I liked this!

[fccool]

Quote:

"I never knew you" is the same as saying "We were never truly close friends." It's saying, "I don't recognize you."

To a certain degree yes. I don't think it's saying "I don't recognize you", because in that case it's not dealing with mere cognitive knowledge. The concept of intimacy was equated with the concept of "knowing" someone. Just like in spanish language you have "saber" and "conocer". Although not used as such in modern Spanish, "conocer" denotes knowledge that is more than mere factual knowledge. In greek it's the word ginosko, which is very similar to Spanish "conozco".

Yet it's the same ginosko that is used for :

"Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angle of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

Same exact word, which would indicate that based on "I never knew you", He indeed never truly knew these people, and they did not know Him.

Thus that passage is not dealing with "losing salvation" , but it's dealing with not having it in the first place.

[Gerr]

Quote:

When you answer by means of quoting out of context scripture, that is followed by very short exposition on what you believe the scripture is talking about... that will probably be the rule of thumb rather than exception

Out of context? That's a matter of opinion! Show me where I quoted a passage out of context and I'll show you why it was appropriate! I am not one to just just throw proof texts around, friend. Perhaps you have better training in Biblical exposition than me, but I think I have learned a few things in the decades that I have been studying the Scriptures. Truth is very important to me. Truth is not something I consider over-rated. It is a way of life!

[Gerr]

Quote:

Perhaps, but if I have to ask every person to clarify every statement they make just so I did not misunderstand what they said, that would make communication tedious and impractical.

would it? or would it make for more Christlike communication and a better understanding of others?

And just what did you mean by that?:)

[fccool]

Out of context? That's a matter of opinion! Show me where I quoted a passage out of context and I'll show you why it was appropriate! I am not one to just just throw proof texts around, friend. Perhaps you have better training in Biblical exposition than me, but I think I have learned a few things in the decades that I have been studying the Scriptures. Truth is very important to me. Truth is not something I consider over-rated. It is a way of life!

Gerry,

By out of context I don't mean you are inappropriately pasting it. I simply mean that people tend to paste a couple of sentences without any underlying explanation... and they explain the text explain itself. Did not mean to knock on you at all. It was merely a mean sarcasm on my end. You've been here long enough to know that I'm capable of it. Does not mean that I think that you are less intelligent than I am... al contre. We are here to learn, and I tend to like longer exposition. I love to read people's thoughts, even if I disagree with them.

There are people on this board who will take anything and everything as a personal attack. I don't believe that you are one of them.

[John317]

"I never knew you" is the same as saying "We were never truly close friends." It's saying, "I don't recognize you."

Originally Posted By: fccool

....Thus that passage is not dealing with "losing salvation" , but it's dealing with not having it in the first place.

When 1 John 5: 12 says that "he who has the Son has THE LIFE," it is not telling us that once we have the Son, we cease to have a choice whether to have the Son tomorrow or next year. We always have a choice whether to be saved in God's Kingdom or not. Salavation is always conditioned upon our responses to God.

Eternal life is a present reality as long as we have the Son, but that reality can be lost if we don't cooperate with Christ. People who are now led by the Spirit can still fail to be saved at last in God's kingdom. Some people will have their lampstands removed from their place. Rev. 2: 5. Some will have their names blotted out of the Book of Life. Rev. 3: 5. Some people who were once in Christ will finally be spewed out of Christ's mouth. Rev. 3: 16.

This again is shown by Christ's urging the believers in the church of Philadelphia,

I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. Rev. 3: 11.

And:

The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, Rev. 2:26

All of the above verses give proof that salvation is conditional.

The Bible gives us ways of knowing whether we really have the Son. Those ways are described in Romans 8 and 1 John 1: 5 to 2:6 and 3: 1-11.

Romans 8:7-17

[7] For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. [8] Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

[9] You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. [10] But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [11] If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

[12] So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. [13] For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [14] For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. [15] For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" [16] The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, [17] and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

[John317]

Didn't God finally let go of the people of Israel?

Originally Posted By: fccool

I don't believe so.

...God NEVER turned on his people... even in light of disobedience. And it will be a great day when they will recognize Christ as their messiah likewise.

Is physical Israel still God's special people? No.

See 2 Kings 17: 9-20:

Quote:

And the people of Israel did secretly against the Lord their God things that were not right. They built for themselves high places in all their towns, from watchtower to fortified city. [10] They set up for themselves pillars and Asherim on every high hill and under every green tree, [11] and there they made offerings on all the high places, as the nations did whom the Lord carried away before them. And they did wicked things, provoking the Lord to anger, [12] and they served idols, of which the Lord had said to them, "You shall not do this." [13] Yet the Lord warned Israel and Judah by every prophet and every seer, saying, "Turn from your evil ways and keep my commandments and my statutes, in accordance with all the Law that I commanded your fathers, and that I sent to you by my servants the prophets."

[14] But they would not listen, but were stubborn, as their fathers had been, who did not believe in the Lord their God. [15] They despised his statutes and his covenant that he made with their fathers and the warnings that he gave them. They went after false idols and became false, and they followed the nations that were around them, concerning whom the Lord had commanded them that they should not do like them. [16] And they abandoned all the commandments of the Lord their God, and made for themselves metal images of two calves; and they made an Asherah and worshiped all the host of heaven and served Baal. [17] And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings and used divination and omens and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger. [18] Therefore the Lord was very angry with Israel and removed them out of his sight. None was left but the tribe of Judah only.

[19] Judah also did not keep the commandments of the Lord their God, but walked in the customs that Israel had introduced. [20] And the Lord rejected all the descendants of Israel and afflicted them and gave them into the hand of plunderers, until he had cast them out of his sight.

Also study Daniel 9: 24-27. At the end of their probationary period, 34 AD, the literal children of Jacob were rejected by God as His special people. God's special instrument for spreading the Good News is now the church of Christ. It has nothing to do with physcial descent but of being born of God and of being of the household of faith.

I don't mean, of course, that Jews can no longer be saved. They are saved through faith in Christ the same way the Gentiles are. In the Gospel, there is neither Jew nor Gentile. Gal. 3: 28.

[John317]

Who would you say is more likely to be saved:

1. A self-proclaimed atheist who stopped believing in god because of his spiritually/mentally/emotionally abusive church.

2. A member of that church who participates in the abuse but believes strongly in the lord.

Why would someone who believes in God stop believing in God because of what he sees people do?

Give some examples of "his spiritually/mentally/emotionally abusive church" that has caused people who "stop believing in god."

[John317]

Ellen White says that only a small number of people will be finally saved, compared to the number of people who have lived.

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Where do you think she says this?

Are you unaware that she makes this statement? I'll find it for you and post it as soon as I do.

Do you also remember the statement she makes about there being only a fraction of the church who are ready for Christ to return?

The Bible also shows this to be true. For instance, in its references to the narrow road that leads to heaven whereas the wide, well-traveled road leads to destruction. Also, the fact that Rev. 13: 8 teaches that "all who dwell on the earth" will follow after the beast, whereas only a relatively small group-- since they keep the commandments of God--- don't receive the Mark of the Beast.

Remember that in Babylon only the three worthies refused to bow down to the image.

There will be millions saved, yes, but that's not many compared to the billions who lived and will be lost.

[John317]

"I never knew you" is the same as saying "We were never truly close friends."

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

I liked this!

It was actually an explanation I got from my good friend, Dr. Graham Maxwell, in one of his Sabbath School classes.

[John317]

Ellen White says that only a small number of people will be finally saved, compared to the number of people who have lived.

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Where do you think she says this?

I don't "think"-- I know where she says it.

One such place is 2 T 293-294.

"The word of God plainly tells us that few will be saved, and that the greater number of those, even, who are called will prove themselves unworthy of everlasting life. They will have no part in heaven, but will have their portion with Satan, and experience the second death."

Of course she means relatively few, in comparison to those who lived and could have been saved.

In that same paragraph, Mrs. White also says, "God calls upon you to repent, to be zealous in the work. Your eternal happiness will be determined by the course you now pursue."

Notice the prophet of God rejects the false idea that is popular today even among some SDAs that nothing we do has any influence on whether we are saved or not.

It is interesting that she says "few will be saved," whereas she describes the lost as "numberless as the sands of the sea." GC 662.

[John317]

Overall I believe that is the case. But there WILL be that group of people who believe they are saved, when they are actually lost. Jesus wasn't lying when He said that.

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Sure, but it takes a LOT of resistance of the Holy Spirit to get to this point.

Yes, it does take resistance, but when people love their sins and refuse to give them up, it will be easy for them to resist Holy Spirit. God gently leads, He does not drive. Satan drives.

Ellen White says "few will be saved," and the lost who come up in the second resurrection will be "as numberless as the sands of the sea."

Uncounted billions will resist the Holy Spirit and be utterly and eternally lost. Many of these will be shocked that they came up on the wrong side of the 1000 years. It's foolishness to think that it's hard to be lost. It's the devil's message, not God's.

Here is God's message, unpopular but true:

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14.

When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing. "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years." Malachi 3:4. Then the church which our Lord at His coming is to receive to Himself will be a "glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Ephesians 5:27. Then she will look "forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners." Song of Solomon 6:10.

..... In the parable of Matthew 22 the same figure of the marriage is introduced, and the investigative judgment is clearly represented as taking place before the marriage. Previous to the wedding the king comes in to see the guests, to see if all are attired in the wedding garment, the spotless robe of character washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb. Matthew 22:11; Revelation 7:14. He who is found wanting is cast out, but all who upon examination are seen to have the wedding garment on are accepted of God and accounted worthy of a share in His kingdom and a seat upon His throne. This work of examination of character, of determining who are prepared for the kingdom of God, is that of the investigative judgment, the closing of work in the sanctuary above.

When the work of investigation shall be ended, when the cases of those who in all ages have professed to be followers of Christ have been examined and decided, then, and not till then, probation will close, and the door of mercy will be shut. Thus in the one short sentence, "They that were ready went in with Him to the marriage: and the door was shut," we are carried down through the Saviour's final ministration, to the time when the great work for man's salvation shall be completed.

.... As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. The Lord declared to Moses: "Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book." Exodus 32:33. And says the prophet Ezekiel: "When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, . . . all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned." Ezekiel 18:24.

All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life. The Lord declares, by the prophet Isaiah: "I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25. Said Jesus: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels." "Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven." Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33. GC 425-428, 483

[John317]

Perhaps, but if I have to ask every person to clarify every statement they make just so I did not misunderstand what they said, that would make communication tedious and impractical.

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

would it? or would it make for more Christlike communication and a better understanding of others?

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And just what did you mean by that?:)

teresaq, speaking of "more Christlike communciation and better understanding of others"-- would you care to communicate clearly here and explain what you mean?

[fccool]

Quote:

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands.....

Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

14I answered, "Sir, you know."

And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

John, it appears to me that the great multitude that no one could count comes out of the great tribulation. How many people do you think will be because of plain God's mercy? Do you think that He would not do anything possible for those people who truly want to know Him, yet struggle with sin?

Do we really believe in God that would say... "The passing grade if 70%, you have 65%... SORRY" Are we really that shallow? Is calculus teacher more merciful then God?

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Who would you say is more likely to be saved:

1. A self-proclaimed atheist who stopped believing in god because of his spiritually/mentally/emotionally abusive church.

2. A member of that church who participates in the abuse but believes strongly in the lord.

Why would someone who believes in God stop believing in God because of what he sees people do?

Give some examples of "his spiritually/mentally/emotionally abusive church" that has caused people who "stop believing in god."

You are not answering my honest question. Do you not believe that this scenario happens?

[Gerr]

Thanks for the explanation.

I strive not only for transparency but also to be brief and to the point. Among my family and friends, I am known as a person of few words. As Solomon said, "the more the words, the less the meaning...." Eccl 6:11 NIV :):)

[fccool]

Quote:

Give some examples of "his spiritually/mentally/emotionally abusive church" that has caused people who "stop believing in god."

Sure,

I'll give you an example from personal acquaintance I know. She was a good childhood friend of my wife. When she was 14 when her mom got a a live in boyfriend. All three of them would go to church as a family, but the boyfriend started raping the girl. All three of them wold come to church like nothing happened, and the girl just kept quiet. She finally had enough courage to tell her mom, and the mom did nothing. She did make the guy move out, but kept up the relationship. The girl did not understand how her mom could betray her like that, and she ran away.

Luckily, the family that adopted her had father who was psychologist. After hearing the story, he pressed charges and the guy was arrested and did some time.

The mother and the rapist guy got back together after he got out of jail. Both of them are back in church, the girl wants nothing to do with church anymore.

How do you think God sees this situation? Do you think he will punish the girl? Who misrepresented God in this scenario? Can you blame her for losing trust in humanity?

I know quite a bit of cases such as these.

[John317]

John, it appears to me that the great multitude that no one could count comes out of the great tribulation. How many people do you think will be because of plain God's mercy? Do you think that He would not do anything possible for those people who truly want to know Him, yet struggle with sin?

Do we really believe in God that would say... "The passing grade if 70%, you have 65%... SORRY" Are we really that shallow? Is calculus teacher more merciful then God?

Absolutely not. Why do you ask this? What have I said that caused you to ask the question. It could be that I'm not making myself clear. Let me know why you wrote your post as you did.

God does everything possible to save people, short of violating their freedom of choice.

Nevertheless, we must face the fact that "few will be saved," relative to the number of people who will have lived. This is not a reflection upon God-- it's a reflection upon the nature of sin and shows us why God hates it and is determined to destroy it.

[John317]

Who would you say is more likely to be saved:

1. A self-proclaimed atheist who stopped believing in god because of his spiritually/mentally/emotionally abusive church.

2. A member of that church who participates in the abuse but believes strongly in the lord.

Originally Posted By: john3:17

Why would someone who believes in God stop believing in God because of what he sees people do?

Give some examples of "his spiritually/mentally/emotionally abusive church" that has caused people who "stop believing in god."

Originally Posted By: SivartM

You are not answering my honest question. Do you not believe that this scenario happens?

You have not responded to my honest request. What do you see as spiritual and mental and emotional "abuse" by "the church"?

My answer so far is that I don't recognize the senario you're talking about. Are you talking about individuals or about the church itself?

I've been in connection with the SDA church since the early 50s and I don't see it as being "spiritually/mentally/emotionally abusive."

If you want people to understand what you are saying, give some examples.

[John317]

Give some examples of "his spiritually/mentally/emotionally abusive church" that has caused people who "stop believing in god."

Originally Posted By: fccool

Sure,

I'll give you an example from personal acquaintance I know. She was a good childhood friend of my wife. When she was 14 when her mom got a a live in boyfriend. All three of them would go to church as a family, but the boyfriend started raping the girl. All three of them wold come to church like nothing happened, and the girl just kept quiet. .... Both of them are back in church, the girl wants nothing to do with church anymore.

How do you think God sees this situation? Do you think he will punish the girl? Who misrepresented God in this scenario? Can you blame her for losing trust in humanity?

I know quite a bit of cases such as these.

One thing that we need to get straight is that God won't save the girl in His kingdom just because she was raped and lost her faith in God and in the church.

God doesn't punish the girl, but the devil uses those kinds of things to get people to separate from the church and from God.

The mother certainly misrepresented God. She's not acting like a person who's truly converted to Christ, either, and of course the boy-friend was under the control of the Devil at the time he committed those terrible acts.

I know of situations that are similar to this. There's a lot of incest, much more than most people would imagine, and some of it happens with girls whose fathers are in the church. My own ex-father-in-law did worse things than what you've described, and he was the elder of the church all the time he was doing those things to his own sons as well as to children in the church.

Would that be an excuse or a valid reason for me or anyone else to lose faith in God or in the church? No.

Sure, the devil is very active. The Devil loves unconverted people to become members of the church or to go to church and make professions. He is able to use such people to his great advantage.

But those things can't be blamed on the church itself.

I thought the question had to do with the things that the church did, not what some individuals do who go to church.

[SivartM]

Would that be an excuse or a valid reason for me or anyone else to lose faith in God or in the church? No.

What makes you think that an abusive church (and I was obviously talking about local churches or any other group) has any faith in God in the first place? That was my point in lowercasing the words god and lord in my post; I don't think that churches like this have anything to do with God. Which brings me back to me question: who is closer to God, the abusive person, or the person who recognizes that the abuse is wrong and leaves? It would certainly be nice if everyone were perpetually be in a rational and objective frame of mind in which it is perfectly clear that individuals are usually different from the God they claim to reflect, but people who are abused and leave probably are not in that frame of mind. It probably doesn't help much when people quote to them the "a fool says in his heart" verse and all that. Those people are not fools, they are smarter than the "believers" they left behind.