A Revelation Tidbit

[Gus Foster]

Sharing a recent communicay with one of our professers.

Just sharing a couple of thoughts with you. People ask me all of the time if I could capsulate the Rev trumpets. Several years ago I thought that Hebrews 12 best explains the meaning and purpose of the trumpets; today, I'm more convinced than ever. It is always tough to truncate Scripture.

Whenever I'm traveling and teaching, I always take many copies of Titus 2:11-3:9, with 2 Cor 7:1 for its closing. This is for how to live.

And never do I forget to plead with those who will listen to read John 17 everyday for one year. This is for how to 'have the mind of Christ".

You're the teacher, and I don't mean to 'bug' you, and only hope that you find this meaningful.

Actually, I getting ready for a couple of weeks in Kauai, and pray the Lord will let me relax for a bit---I may reach my 67th birthday in June. Never do I leave Him behind, and hope I never close 'the door' again. I know 'we' will have joy and peace. Have a great week---Gus

[Guest]

Gus said these words. "Just sharing a couple of thoughts with you. People ask me all of the time if I could capsulate the Rev trumpets. Several years ago I thought that Hebrews 12 best explains the meaning and purpose of the trumpets; today, I'm more convinced than ever. It is always tough to truncate Scripture."

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Well tell us what the 7 Trumpets mean to you in your own words?? If you are going to share the old repeated memory work of the college professors, let me say, that doesn't fly anymore. Pleople are beginning to hold God's word in their own hand and realize that all the 7 Trumpets are in the FUTURE.

[there buster]

No, the 7 trumpets are not in the FUTURE.

[Guest]

Quote:

---

No, the 7 trumpets are not in the FUTURE.

---

Words are cheap! Back it up with evidence! Again the old repeated memorywork inflicted on every SDA seminary graduate is like a lead baloon as far as it getting off this planet goes. My powder is dry on this subject, better call up for some bigger guns to witness you failure & egg on face.

[there buster]

Well, consider this Ed's bridge. If you can figure this out, we'll have a discussion. If not, it would take more time than I have to devote to this.

Tractate Tamid (tamid="daily")

and the following texts:

Rev 1:12-20

Rev 4:1

Rev 5:6

Rev 6:9

Rev 8:3,4

Rev 8:1

Rev 8:2-6

And then for Yom Kippur.

Rev 11:17, 18

Hint: this is about the "backbone" of the book of Revelation.

You might also consider the literary structure of Daniel. What is the genre of Daniel 1-6? What of Daniel 7-12?

And how does that compare with the literary structure of Revelation?

[DaveM1936]

I have concluded from my own studies that the first half of the book of Revelation is laid out thus:

1. Seven churches. The consecutive phases of God's church through out the previous 2000 years.

2. Seven seals. The reaction of the world to the mission of the seven churches.

3. Seven trumpets. God's judgments on the world, expecially Europe, for the treatment of the seven churches under the seven seals.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Bravus]

Ed: I'm not the moderator here, but can I ask you to conduct the discussion a little more gently? Gus chose to share with us something that he found deeply meaningful, and did it as a gift, not a challenge. Your coming back immediately in a very aggressive, challenging mode just seems out of place. Stand up for the truth, by all means, but Gus was basically presenting something quite gently and tentatively: it's just good manners to respond in kind.

[Guest]

Quote:

---

Well, consider this Ed's bridge. If you can figure this out, we'll have a discussion. If not, it would take more time than I have to devote to this.

Tractate Tamid

(tamid="daily")

and the following texts:

Rev 1:12-20

Rev 4:1

Rev 5:6

Rev 6:9

Rev 8:3,4

Rev 8:1

Rev 8:2-6

And then for Yom Kippur.

Rev 11:17, 18

Hint: this is about the "backbone" of the book of Revelation.

You might also consider the literary structure of Daniel. What is the genre of Daniel 1-6? What of Daniel 7-12?

And how does that compare with the literary structure of Revelation?

---

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Ed I have no burden to try & figure out something that’s obvious you are not sure about yourself. I know these bible verses you quoted from memory and know the rule that inspiration encourages us to follow, but beyond that I may become bewildered in following confusion. As you and other know the 7 Trumpets angels “prepare themselves to sound” [8:6] AFTER Jesus throws down the censer [close of probation]. You posted Revelation 8:1 which most Adventist believe is the 7 day journey by the saints on their way to heaven. Yet these same people expect bible students to then place the remainder of chapters 8 & 9 in the PAST. Sorry, Revelation’s different messages is recorded for us in order. That would be God’s order, not the historian Gibbons account that lived and died BEFORE Adventist even came to the surface.

"The solemn messages that have been given in their order in the revelation are to occupy the first place in the minds of God's people. Nothing else is to be allowed to engross our attention." Vol. 8 Testimonies 302.

"REVELATION" means that something of importance is revealed. The truths of this book are addressed to those living in these last days. We are standing with the veil removed in the holy place of sacred things. We are not to stand without. We are to enter, not with careless, irreverent thoughts, not with impetuous footsteps, but with reverence and godly fear. We are nearing the time when the prophecies of the book of Revelation are to be fulfilled." Testimonies to Ministers 113

Most all Revelation different messages apply mainly to AFTER 1844, I think it so sad for a church professing the truth to misapply & teach that the saint will be traveling to heaven [8:1] while the Investigative Judgement is is in process. So I will protest.

==========================

Bravus I hear what you are saying and am fully aware when request/questions are asked. Ask/request to your hearts content.

[Gus Foster]

Quote:

---

I have concluded from my own studies that the first half of the book of Revelation is laid out thus:

1. Seven churches. The consecutive phases of God's church through out the previous 2000 years.

2. Seven seals. The reaction of the world to the mission of the seven churches.

3. Seven trumpets. God's judgments on the world, expecially Europe, for the treatment of the seven churches under the seven seals.

Your friend,

Dave M

---

That's not bad Dave; a prety good analogy. Since my ten year international Bible Study on Revelation I have never depended on nor quoted the standard historical Adventist teaching on Revelation. Not that it was wrong, for I feel it was correct for that time period, since Revelation is written in symbols to be current for every place at every time throughout church history.

The best study available today is Ranko Stefanovic's Revealtion of Jesus Christ where he correctly uses Old Testament texts that John quoted to write Revelation. The texts are quite explicit in definition, and any other method is conjecture and supposition.

The churches, seals and trumpets all happen at the same time period, from the day of Pentecost when Jesus was crowned (enthroned) in heaven (Rev 5) and Peter (at the same time period) pontificated the gospel message through the urging and enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.

The churches made available the attributes and character of Christ (from Rev 1) to 'overcome'; the seals are the work of all of heaven (very clear from Eze and Zech) to convict and purge and cleanse; and the trumpets are the result on earth. The result is the symbolic description of the New Jerusalem, the fine gold and jewels that protray the cleansed and pure 'saints', and conversely, the grounds for the destruction of those who do not accept Christ's 'robe'. For that reason, the trumpets are mainly aimed at the 'professed church', those who yoyo with the world, and are later described in Rev 17 & 18.

If one chooses to address the trumpets in a historical setting after 1844, that would also be correct, but they certainly had application in the early chucrh when one understands their meaning and purpose.

The book of Revelation is most definitely based on the sanctuary and the feast days, and an understanding of these make Revelation an uncovered, clear, unveiled book. Every Old Testament book is used and quoted in its delivery, as well as some apocrapha texts.

[Guest]

Gus suggested this, even seem to be proud of something without providing not one ounce of proof. " and any other method is conjecture and supposition."

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

I submit to you that my method is different from this "method" as state partly why in my post to Ed Dickerson above. What you have suggesting that the 7seals/7trumpets/7churches had their beginning in the first century is old error that Adventism inherited from the world, even taught years before the 1800. Many don't realize "That in every age there is a new development of truth" COL 127

[there buster]

Bravus, thank you for the instruction in manners.

I did not respond to Gus's post, but to Ed White's.

That appears in the subject line, and also I repeated White's words. I did not address what Gus posted.

Perhaps you should have checked that. Just seems like good procedure.

[there buster]

Please note the subject line, Bravus, this is for Ed White.

Quote:

---

Ed I have no burden to try & figure out something that’s obvious you are not sure about yourself. I know these bible verses you quoted from memory and know the rule that inspiration encourages us to follow, but beyond that I may become bewildered in following confusion

---

Well, keep your powder dry, Ed. Not only am I not unsure about these references, Gus's answer demonstrates that he actually understands what I'm talking about. So I won't bother you any more. Don't want to add to confusion.

[Guest]

Ed after the three of you wear your nails down to the quick scratching one another backs, the truthfulness of my posts on Revelations message in their native purity will still be standing tall.

[Gregory Matthews]

Ed Dickerson:

I understood the post that Bravus made to be directed to Ed White, and post # 164091, not Ed Dickerson.

[Bravus]

Yep, Gregory has it right, Ed D, I was talking to Ed W: sorry, I can't keep my 'Ed' on straight! I'll try to be clearer in future.

[there buster]

I apologize. Since it followed mine, I made a wrong assumption.

Mea culpa! Mea culpa! Mea maxima culpa!

[Guest]

Quote:

---

Ed: I'm not the moderator here, but can I ask you to conduct the discussion a little more gently? Gus chose to share with us something that he found deeply meaningful, and did it as a gift, not a challenge. Your coming back immediately in a very aggressive, challenging mode just seems out of place. Stand up for the truth, by all means, but Gus was basically presenting something quite gently and tentatively: it's just good manners to respond in kind.

---

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Bravus I perceieve you want to be helpful by coming to Gus's defence, but since he is a grown boy, why not let him answer for himself? My posts above contains facts & figures from scripture which I think should be the only place to start in considering the 7 Trumpets of Revelation. Having spurious books in ones lap as they type will dwarft reasoning powers until they are useless. We have all seen much of that!! And there will be more dwarfing of reasoning powers TOMORROW as people continue guarding another mans study that has nothing to do with bible truth. In Testmony To Ministers about 337 is a statement that goes like this "How dare they advance ideas unless they know whence it came and that it is the truth".

I second that motion! "How dare they..."

[Gus Foster]

My comment in any of this forum is never to respond in a negative manner nor to impune any one else's opinion. I recently sent an e-mail to a doctor friend of mine now in Mexico to joyfully proclaim that there is now a commentary on Revelation which uses Scripture to explains its own meaning--and I should horray, halyahula, amen. Let me share part of it with you:

<<<

Pg 546/7 on Rev 19:

The bride's preparation is described in terms of arraying herself in fine linen, bright and clean (cf Rev 7:14). Daniel prophesied that at the time of the end ' many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined' (Dan 12:10, RSV). 'Bright' indicates a radiant whiteness which denotes glorification (cf Matt 13:43), and 'clean' reflects the church in all her purity, loyalty and faithfulness. Fine linen is mentioned several times in Revelation. In this text, however, it is especially significant in that it represents the righteous deeds of the saints. Righteous deeds are the natural and inevitable result of righteous character produced by a victorious Christian life developed by the grace of the indwelling Christ (cf Gal 2:20; James 2:17-20). The brides linen dress stands in sharp contrast to the purple and scarlet clothing and lavish adornment of the great harlot Babylon (Rev 17:4). Both the church and Babylon are clothed in their deeds and character (cf Rev 18:5). Revelation as a whole may be characterized as 'A Tale of Two Cities, with the sub-title, the Harlot and the Bride'.

Although the church's preparation includes her active participation, the text shows that the church does not put in her own works. John states that the Lamb's bride was given to clothe herself in bright and clean linen. The fact that the bride 'was given' to clothe herself with fine linen indicates that it was not her own righteous deeds that make up a gown of meritorious works or self-righteousness. The while robes are not self-made or self earned, but are supplied by 'Christ and are given to God's redeemed people. The righteous deeds are thus Christ's gift to his people. The concept is emphasized elsewhere in Revelation. Christ invited the Christians in Laodicea to 'buy' from him white garments 'at a cost of total commitment,' so as to clothe themselves and cover their shame of their nakedness (Rev 3:18). The slain martyrs underneath the altar in the scene of the fifth seal were given white garments as a token of their obedience to God (Rev 6:11). Rev 7:9-14 show that the white and clean robes of the redeemed are the result of having washed them in the blood of the Lamb. That is why they shout before the throne: "Salvation to our God sitting on the throne and to the Lamb" (Rev 7:10). In Rev 19:7 the redeemed are called to give glory to him, showing that their redemption is entirely the result of what Christ has done for them, rather than what they have achieved for themselves. (see Isa 61:10) It is a product of their intimate relationship with Christ (Eph 5:24-27).

Further on pg 558:

Longing to be with the Bridegroom, through grace the church keeps herself unspotted from the corruptions of Babylon, in order that in the day of Christ she may appear in the pure and white linen of the righteousness of the saints, prepared as the bride adorned for the Bridegroom. Hence, bearing in mind the blessedness of the hope, we will be moved "to live sensibly, righteously and godly in this present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ".

Titus 2:12-13

The blessed hope will prompt us to earnestly long for the soon coming of the wedding day and to get (be)ready to meet him that is the focus of the entire Bible.

Let us cleanse ourselves--2 Cor 7:1.

Since the Revelation of Jesus Christ is not only revealing His will and word to His people, but duelly His people themselves, it stands to reason that all parts of the book must be understood in relationship and terms of the gospel. Christ is adding and cleansing, pruning and cleansing His own, throughout the first 14 chapters of the book, from the first Pentecost of the church until now.

[Guest]

Gus I can respect your position to "not respond", but is this a virtue or is a cop out in not knowing for yourself? Why not tell us in your own words of what this man has just said so I can know your position? In the thread about the sealed book [bible & Thelogy] I gave scores of bibles verses, allowing the bible to be it's own expositor. I didn't hear no "amen" coming from you where I followed the bible rules.

Looking forward to know what it is that this man has said in your words.

[Gus Foster]

Quote:

---

Gus I can respect your position to "not respond", but is this a virtue or is a cop out in not knowing for yourself? Why not tell us in your own words of what this man has just said so I can know your position? In the thread about the sealed book [bible & Thelogy] I gave scores of bibles verses, allowing the bible to be it's own expositor. I didn't hear no "amen" coming from you where I followed the bible rules.

Looking forward to know what it is that this man has said in your words.

---

I really don't understand your question--I have not lived in a closet nor under a rock. I have been posting for years on this and other forums; my web-site has been well publisized for years, and been critiqued by every Adventist committee and study group. I suppose I could summerize for you:

The Revelation of Jesus is his people: Eph 3; Col 1; John 17 etc; plus it is his revelation in every way and method to the whole world, altho this letter is specifically to his church.

Rev lists Christ's attributes and character which he shares and makes available to his sevenfold church. John quotes Eze, Isa, Zech, to show activity from heaven from The Father, to the arch-angels, to the messengers, both angels and men, and these are carried out by the 4 horses as described in Zech vision. The trumpets are the direct result and are pictured in contrast, both good and evil in consequence to heaven's actions, and these are specifically to save, purge and cleanse mankind.

Rev 12 show the transition of God's people from Israel to the church (the changing of the guard) and the duties of this church (3 angels) especially against the battle of the false (professed) church and church state groups of Rev 13.

The trumpets, altho proclaimed to be the hardest part of Scripture to understand, primarilly due to time setting, preterism, futurism, historical (altho all have some merit, and historical setting for the continuation of the reformation) it is really very visible because most of the content are direct quotes from applications to judgments on Israel, paralleling church character (human nature, 2 Cor 2:14).

And basically, some new testament texts describe the contents clearly, such as Heb 12--shaken until nothing left to be shaken. Our Lord leaves nothing to chance, and nothing behind. All have a clear choice to accept the wedding garment (invitation) but most choose to cling to their world. Only those that are working and living in Christ, obeying His will in place of their own will be with Him, and all is based on the Father's love---'the love of the Father 'shall be in them'!

This is a very brief sketch--there is much more in:

The Mystery of Christ in You and can be found on any search engine. I do not compute my virtue nor cop out and find it repundant to respond. Not I, but Christ. He must increase--etc etc etc

Some of the trumpets are according to direct time periods, such as the 5th, where Jesus gives Satan the key to the abyss and he releases demonic forces onto the earth, but reading the OT quotes on the first 4 trumpets make them applicable to the early church, and especially the church "fleeing into the wilderness". Any one with a concordance and ambition for 'actual' truth can see for themselves. Several hundred people aroung the globe did this for 10 years in the 1990's. Fascinating---you can't tell people the result of Bible study unless they are willing to do it themselves. Only by the Holy Spirit.

[Guest]

Gus said this. "I have been posting for years on this and other forums; my web-site has been well publisized for years, and been critiqued by every Adventist committee and study group."

===========================

Then I guess I am the one that has been "hiding under a rock" as I have never seen your studies before. If you believe that truth can stand investigation allow me to look at your studies, to give you one more opinion, but please no sampling of the above in which gave me a example of your summarizing. "Revelation message are given in their order and should occupy the first place in the minds of God's people. Nothing else should engross their attention." 8T 302

Now you mentioned the 7 trumpets, why not start right there and exhaust that subject without bouncing all over the place? Or it could be the 7 seals, or 7 thunders or 7 thunders, or 7 plagues or WHEREVER!

[DaveM1936]

IF I may offer the results of my own study on the 7 trumpets, the first six are already passed and the seventh is year future.

l. Visigoths. 378 A.D. They sacked Rome in 410.

2. Vandels. 429. They invaded Rome in 455.

3. Huns. They invaded the Eastern Empire in 441. They invaded the Western Empire in 445.

4. Heruli. 476-488, under Odovacer.

5. Muslims. Mohammad died in 632.

6. Turks. Josiah Litch placed the 391 years of Turkish rule from July 27,1449 through August 11, 1840. On that date the Sultan came under European protection. His prediction created quite a stir among the Millerites and others.

Also under the 6th trumpet is the French Revolution depicted in Rev 11. Atheism appears for the first time.

7. The events immediately preceeding the second coming of Christ. Final plagues. Heaven's temple is opened revealed the ark and the ten commandments.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Guest]

Quote:

---

IF I may offer the results of my own study on the 7 trumpets, the first six are already passed and the seventh is year future.

l. Visigoths. 378 A.D. They sacked Rome in 410.

2. Vandels. 429. They invaded Rome in 455.

3. Huns. They invaded the Eastern Empire in 441. They invaded the Western Empire in 445.

4. Heruli. 476-488, under Odovacer.

5. Muslims. Mohammad died in 632.

6. Turks. Josiah Litch placed the 391 years of Turkish rule from July 27,1449 through August 11, 1840. On that date the Sultan came under European protection. His prediction created quite a stir among the Millerites and others.

Also under the 6th trumpet is the French Revolution depicted in Rev 11. Atheism appears for the first time.

7. The events immediately preceeding the second coming of Christ. Final plagues. Heaven's temple is opened revealed the ark and the ten commandments.

Your friend,

Dave M

---

==============================

Dave let's get honest, if this was your study then that's one thing, but it just so happen that Edward Gibbon the historian that lived & died about 1790 said the same thing back then. that being the case then he must ALSO have been a prophet to know that you would come along in the 21st century teaching these same thoughts. HE WAS READING YOUR MAIL ahead of time!!!

NO my friend not one trumpet has sounded, they only "prepare themselves to sound" [8:6] after Jesus throws down the censer in verse 8:5. In Revelation 9:4 [which you and J. litch place IN THE PAST] people are already sealed with the Fathers name in their forehead at that point.How true are these prophets words!! "Trumpet after trumpet IS YET TO SOUND and vial after vial is yet to be poured out."

[Gus Foster]

Quote:

---

Now you mentioned the 7 trumpets, why not start right there and exhaust that subject without bouncing all over the place? Or it could be the 7 seals, or 7 thunders or 7 thunders, or 7 plagues or WHEREVER!

---

I shall reapond to you this one time on this subject; you can read some of our study at :

http://home.neo.rr.com/sharefact/

There are others, but this will give a basic outline of our study. I am presently preparing a seminar, sermons and a class reunion, and can give only a few moments now. Dave has listed a concise explanation of the historical view. I encourage any Bible student to get Ranko Stefanovic's commentary of Revelation for $42 from Bacchiocchi's library. It is far and beyond the best and most accurate published. I have several hundred pages of notes on all of the sevens you mentioned, and to give a study on the trumpets would be enormous, since it is a complete exhaustive concordance study on every word and phrase.

And I need to point out that our study does not separate the churches, seals and trumpets since them are all the same happenings from different prospectives.

So, I will answer you thusly:

Three thousand years ago Soloman penned, 'Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter, fear God and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man'. Soloman mentioned fear 25 times, very aware of a right relationship between man and God. It is not of happenstance that the Hebrew word 'yare' also means awe, awesome. A millineum later John echoed Soloman, and created the battlecry for the reformation; "those that keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus".

Since one of the structures of Revelation is Chiastic, one would expect to find the first and last chapters related in a conclsuion, and so it does. The description of the Holy City is a description of God's people; purged, cleansed and pure. So pure in fact, they are golden glass and precious stones; one can see right through them; there is nothing hidden, and like the woman of Rev 12, all are reflecting the Sun. The have inherited the attributes and character of Christ given freely to churches, distributed by the seals, and demonstrated in the trumpets.

Paul stated, 'to the Jew first, and then to the gentile'. The precious stones on the High Priest are half Israel and half with new names, the engrafted church. And here we see the conclusion of all time, the cleansing of the sanctuary is and has been the cleansing of God's people. They have been ushered in through the gates and on solid foundations, that of the twelve tribes and twelve apostles. Jesus said, I pray not only for these, but for all those who come through their message.

And all is a gift. Justification, sanctification, glorification--all a gift. And even the love, for Jesus gave us the love of the Father in us; the love of Jesus in me loves the Jesus in you--true, unfeigned love. This is the story of Revelation, and precisely the trumpets. There is no secret in this book about the gold being smolted and the dross being removed. Even Jesus is pictured as such in the beginning.

1st trumpet: both purging and separation--burn the dross, and sear the consicience--trees, rulers; green grass-David, God's people; Jesus, no fruit (professed)

2nd trumpet: which mountain--pick one, they all have significance; Mt Sinai, Mt Horeb, Mt Zion, Mt. Moriah. What blood--Christ's, spiritually dead man. Ships are easy and in Rev 18 represent commerence.

3rd trumpet: again it is Duel: Can represent Christ who was made wormwood for us and can represent Satan which it does in the 5th trumpet. Waters bitter in Marah--people died to sin and people died spiritually.

4th trumpet: and chiastically the theme of the trumpets--look at the contrast---both good and evil prevail, and notice the same language as describe for God's people in Rev 12--EGW states that many a bright light fades away. And more, who is without light today? And how many profess but are in darkness. One point here. Any one who states that the church is removed after Rev 3 and before Rev 4 fits precisely in this warning and judgment.

5th trumpet: Jesus gives Satan the key to open the pit we are now living in, and like Job, we fail to see the significance. Again, Christ does this in mercy, love and grace and uses all of heaven (Rev seals) to enlist His own, those that the Father has given Him, His revelation, those that live for Him and reflect His character. For years many told me the 5 months was 150 years after 1844, even though Jesus said in Luke to set no times or dates. Didn't happen. And John uses Joel to show us how this is a preliminary to the end.

6th Trumpet: one could easily say this in what is happening today, an when one reads the quotes from the prophets, it is easy to see these where the same applications to Israel as they are now for the church. One would believe that for the same reasons of apostasy, and spiritual fornication as these texts quote actual happenings. And for the most part, of simply just not worshipping God and giving Him the Lordship of our lives, actions and thoughts.

In clopsing EGW states that the seven thunders is God thundering to His people; that during the time like no other God will voice to His people words of direction and comfort.

[Guest]

Gus, well do come back when you have time as there is more holes in your study than in a block of Swiss Cheese, which by the way "is totally unfit for food" SOP Or at least it was until Author White came along and added footnotes to his grandmothers books giving SDA permission to eat like the world. Surely you have time to answer just one question don't you? In Revelation 9:4 [during the 5th Trumpet]it tells of the 144,000 that are sealed in their forehead and cannot be hurt. The 144,000 are sealed "in the closing work of the church" 3T 266 just before the 7 last plague are poured out. Now this is in the order that heaven has laid out Revelations messages. My words above to Dave also apply to you. When I go to the link you have provided I know exactly what you expect people to believe. You expect people to beliece that Revelation 8:1 is FUTURE, but all the rest of Revelation 8 & 9 are in the PAST!!! just the way Keith , E. Gibbon & U. Smith taught it. That is very shallow my friend to lean so heavly on another generation bible research. I will pass on that serving!!! There is better nourshment in God's word & the SOP than to be dwarf mentally with over the hill study guides from the world. Where are the "people of the book" anymore???