A Revelation Tidbit

[Clio]

Ed... had you taken the time to read the header of my post, you would have seen that I was replying to a specific question that Ron Lambert asked.

But you didn't.

You will also, on reading further, notice that I suggested to Dave that we do precisely what you are advocating. Great minds think alike.

I do have one question for you though... why are you so quick to jump on me? Is there some way in which I have offended you?

I guess that's two... but I would very much like to know.

clio

[Gus Foster]

Quote:

---

Gus you have started off wrong again!!! Remember start marching with your left foot. Revelation 5:9 tell bible students that the 4 beasts are humans!! Find someone that reads their bible to quote instead of Mr. Edwin Thiele that got started off wrong also.

---

I started out with the Thiele quote because I was quoting from "An Exhaustive Ellen G White Commentrary on Revelation, Vol 2, pages 669-748 which contain 'all' of EGW comments on chapter 4-8:1.

Since many of you on this thread have used her comments to prove you interpretation, I thought I would resort to doing the same. I never used her comments in any of our Revelation study over ten years, but if our conclusions were contrary to her statement on the subject, we would restudy and restudy to make sure of ours. We never concluded any subject which was contrary to hers, including the definition of the four living creatures. She states 57 times that they are a form of angelic beings, and any one is certainly invited to read these quotes in this book. And prior to 1780, no one stated these were human, but 'all' interprreted them as created angels, being 'arch' in nature.

They control the 4 corners of heavens, the four corners of earth, and all in between, as directed from their God whom they watch over in the heavenly sanctuary.

Anyone who believes them to be human has the right to do so, and frankly, the right to be wrong. I notice that Ed 'jumped all over' the Thiele quote, but ignored the EGW quotes. In the 80 pages I refer to, there are over 50 quotes. Further, Scripture does reveal their identify, which was first stated at the beginning of this thread. What is the point of continually disagreeing in a sarcastic manner with another interpretation that is of private, human reasoning?

Just so we are perfectly clear; Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Zechariah all had visions of John's Creatures, and their definition is what I and many others rest our case.

[Clio]

Gus, you are correct in my understanding... they are from the earth... not because they are human, but because they have been stationed here. That is their assignment from JHVH.

Just as there are 4 great ones bound under the Euphrates at this time, so are there 4 Living Beings in control of the 4 corners of the earth until the veil of mercy is replaced by the time of Judgement.

clio

[Ron Lambert]

Ed White, I don't see where it is stated that this thread is about Revelation 5 & 6. Some of the first discussion was about the trumpets, which is Revelation 8-11. DaveM1936 also gave his summary of the outline of the first half of Revelation.

I would summarize Revelation 1-11 this way:

Everything is centered about the Judgment, presented in chapters five and six. Those scenes could not involve Christ's inauguration upon His Ascension, because Rev. 4:1 says twice that what is presented next is future, and Revelation was written some fifty or sixty years after the Ascension.

As I see it, the seven churches apply primarily to a description of the entire range of Christian churches that will exist just before the Judgment of the Living begins. Note what Jesus says to the fourth church, Thyatira: "...and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." (Rev. 2:23) Now, if the seven churches apply to successive historical ages, then how could anyone in the Ephesus church learn the lesson Christ will teach Thyatira, which came centuries later? Jesus said "ALL the churches SHALL know."

This as well as many other evidences indicate to me that the only application that satisfies all points of the prophecies is to see all seven churches existing simulataneously in the tme of the end. There are also clear references to a fast approaching judgment, which the church is about to enter, such as these words to Philadelphia: "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." (Rev. 3:10; NASB)

Then Revelation takes us to the judgment scene in Heaven in chapters 4 and 5. Then in chapters 6-11 we have the seals and trumpets, which portray things that will be taking place on earth at the same time that the judgment of the living is taking place in Heaven.

[Gus Foster]

The Day-Star, January 24, 1846, paragraph 1

Article Title: Letter from Sister Harmon Portland, Me., Dec. 20, 1845

Bro. Jacobs:--

As God has shown me in holy vision the travels of the Advent people to the Holy City, and the rich reward to be given those who wait the return of their Lord from the wedding, it may be my duty to give you a short sketch of what God has revealed to me. The dear saints have got many trials to pass through. But our light afflictions which are but for a moment worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are seen, for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. I have tried to bring back a good report, & a few grapes from the heavenly Canaan, for which many would stone me, as the congregation bade stone Caleb and Joshua for their report, (Num. 14:10.) But I declare to you, my brother in the Lord, it is a goodly land, and we are well able to go up and possess it. While praying at the family altar the Holy Ghost fell on me and I seemed to be rising higher and higher, far above the dark world. I turned to look for the Advent people in the world, but could not find them, when a voice said to me, Look again, and look a little higher. At this, I raised my eyes and see a strait and narrow path, cast up high above the world. On this path the Advent people were traveling to the City, which was at the farther end of the path. They had a bright light set up behind them at the first end of the path, which an angel told me was the Midnight Cry. This light shone all along the path and gave light for their feet so they might not stumble. And if they kept their eyes fixed on Jesus, who was just before them, leading them to the City, they were safe. But soon some grew weary, and said the City was a great way off, and they expected to have entered it before. Then Jesus would encourage them by raising his glorious right arm, and from his arm came a glorious light which waved over the Advent band, and they shouted, Hallelujah! Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out which left their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again & go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected. They fell all the way along the path one after another, until we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming. The living saints, 144,000, in number, know and understand the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder & an earthquake. When God spake the time, he poured on us the Holy Ghost, and our faces began to light up and shine with the glory of God as Moses did when he came down from Mount Sinai, (Ex. 34:30-34.) By this time the 144,000 were all sealed and perfectly united. On their foreheads was written, God, New Jerusalem, and a glorious Star containing Jesus' new name. At our happy, holy state the wicked were enraged, and would rush violently up to lay hands on us to thrust us in prison, when we would stretch forth the hand in the name of the Lord, and the wicked would fall helpless to the ground. Then it was that the synagogue of Satan knew that God had loved us who could wash one another's feet, and salute the holy brethren with a holy kiss, and they worshipped at our feet. Soon our eyes were drawn to the East, for a small black cloud had appeared about half as large as a man's hand, which we all knew was the Sign of the Son of Man. We all in solemn silence gazed on the cloud as it drew nearer, lighter, and brighter, glorious, and still more glorious, till it was a great white cloud. The bottom appeared like fire, a rainbow was over it, around the cloud were ten thousand angels singing a most lovely song. And on it sat the Son of Man, on his head were crowns, his hair was white and curly and lay on his shoulders. His feet had the appearance of fire, in his right hand was a sharp sickle, in his left a silver trumpet. His eyes were as a flame of fire, which searched his children through and through. Then all faces gathered paleness, and those that God had rejected gathered blackness. Then we all cried out, who shall be able to stand? Is my robe spotless? Then the angels ceased to sing, and there was some time of awful silence, when Jesus spoke, Those who have clean hands and a pure heart shall be able to stand, my grace is sufficient for you. At this, our faces lighted up, and joy filled every heart. And the angels struck a note higher and sung again while the cloud drew still nearer the earth. Then Jesus' silver trumpet sounded, as he descended on the cloud, wrapped in flames of fire. He gazed on the graves of the sleeping saints then raised his eyes and hands to heaven & cried out, Awake! Awake! Awake! ye that sleep in the dust, and arise. Then there was a mighty earthquake. The graves opened, and the dead came up clothed with immortality. The 144,000 shouted, Hallelujah! as they recognized their friends who had been torn from them by death, and in the same moment we were changed and caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. We all entered the cloud together, and were 7 days ascending to the sea of glass, when Jesus brought along the crowns and with his own right hand placed them on our heads. He gave us harps of gold and palms of victory. Here on the sea of glass the 144,000 stood in a perfect square. Some of them had very bright crowns, others not so bright. Some crowns appeared hung with stars, while others had but few. All were perfectly satisfied with their crowns. And they were all clothed with a glorious white mantle from their shoulders to their feet. Angels were all about us as we marched over the sea of glass to the gate of the City. Jesus raised his mighty glorious arm, laid hold of the gate and swung it back on its golden hinges, and said to us, You have washed your robes in my blood, stood stiffly for my truth, enter in. We all marched in and felt we had a perfect right in the City. Here we see the tree of life, & the throne of God. Out of the throne came a pure river of water, and on either side of the river was the tree of life. On one side of the river was a trunk of a tree and a trunk on the other side of the river, both of pure transparent gold. At first I thought I see two trees. I looked again and see they were united at the top in one tree. So it was the tree of life on either side of the river of life. Its branches bowed to the place where we stood. And the fruit was glorious, which looked like gold mixed with silver. We all went under the tree, and sat down to look at the glory of the place, when Bro. Fitch, and Stockman, who had preached the gospel of the kingdom, whom God had laid in the grave to save them, came up to us and asked us what we had passed through while they were sleeping. We tried to call up our greatest trials, but they looked so small compared with the far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory that surrounded us, that we could not speak them out, and we all cried out Hallelujah, heaven is cheap enough, and we touched our glorious harps and made heaven's arches ring. And as we were gazing at the glories of the place, our eyes were attracted upwards to something that had the appearance of silver. I asked Jesus to let me see what was within there. In a moment we were winging our way upward and entering in. Here we saw good old father Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Noah, Daniel, and many like them. And I saw a veil with a heavy fringe of silver, and gold as a border on the bottom. It was very beautiful. I asked Jesus what was within the veil. He raised it with his own right arm, and bade me take heed. I saw there a glorious ark, overlaid with pure gold, and it had a glorious border resembling Jesus' crowns. On it were two bright angels; their wings were spread over the ark as they sat on each end, with their faces turned towards each other and looking downward. In the ark, beneath where the angels wings were spread, was a golden pot of Manna of a yellowish cast, and I saw a rod, which Jesus said was Aarons, I saw it bud, blossom, and bear fruit.--And I saw two long golden rods on which hung silver wires, and on the wires most glorious grapes. One cluster was more than a man here can carry. And I saw Jesus step up and take of the manna, almonds, grapes, and pomegranates, and bear them down to the city, and place them on the supper table. I stepped up to see how much was taken away, and there was just as much left, and we shouted Hallelujah. Amen. We all descended from this place down into the city, and with Jesus at our head we all descended from the city down to this earth, on a great and mighty mountain, which could not bear Jesus up, and it parted asunder, and there was a mighty plain. Then we looked up and saw the great city with twelve foundations, twelve gates, three on each side, and an angel at each gate, and all cried out the city, the great city, it's coming, it's coming down from God, out of heaven, and it came and settled on the place where we stood. Then we began to look at the glorious things outside of the city. There I saw most glorious houses, that had the appearance of silver, supported by four pillars, set with pearls most glorious to behold, which were to be inhabited by the saints. In them was a golden shelf, I saw many of the saints go into the houses, take off their glittering crowns and lay them on the shelf, then go out into the field by the houses to do something with the earth, not as we have to do with the earth here; no, no. A glorious light shone all about their heads, and they were continually shouting and offering praises to God. And I saw another field full of all kinds of flowers, and as I plucked them, I cried out, well they will never fade. Next I saw a field of tall grass, most glorious to behold. It was living green, and had a reflection of silver and gold as it waved proudly to the glory of King Jesus. Then we entered a field full of all kinds of beasts; the lion, the lamb, the leopard and the wolf, altogether in perfect union. We passed through the midst of them, and they followed on peaceably after. Then we entered a wood, not like the dark woods we have here, no, no; but light, and all over glorious. The branches of the trees waved to and fro, and we all cried out, we will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in this woods. We passed through the wood, for we were on our way to Mount Zion, as we were traveling along we met a company who were also gazing at the glories of the place: I noticed red as a border on their garments. Their crowns were brilliant--their robes were pure white. As we greeted them, I asked Jesus who they were? He said they were martyrs that had been slain for him. With them was an innumerable company of little ones, they had a hem of red on their garments also. Mount Zion was just before us, and on the Mount sat a glorious temple, and about it were seven other mountains, on which grew roses and lilies, and I saw the little ones climb, or if they chose use their little wings and fly to the top of the mountains, and pluck the never fading flowers. There were all kinds of trees around the temple to beautify the place. The box, the pine, the fir, the oil, the myrtle, the pomegranate and the fig tree, bowed down with the weight of its timely figs that made the place look all over glorious. And as we were about to enter the holy temple, Jesus raised his lovely voice and said, only the 144,000 enter this place, and we shouted Hallelujah. Well bless the Lord, Bro. Jacobs, it is an extra meeting for those who have the seal of the living God. This temple was supported by seven pillars, all of transparent gold, set with pearls most glorious. The glorious things I saw there, I cannot begin to describe. O, that I could talk in the language of Canaan, then could I tell a little of the glory of the upper world; but if faithful you soon will know all about it. I saw there the tables of stone in which the names of the 144,000, were engraved in letters of gold.--After we had beheld the glory of the temple, we went out. Then Jesus left us and went to the city. Soon we heard his lovely voice again, saying: Come my people; you have come out of great tribulation, and done my will, suffered for me; come in to supper, for I will gird myself, and serve you. We shouted Hallelujah, glory, and entered into the city, and I saw a table of pure silver, it was many miles in length, yet our eyes could extend over it. And I saw the fruit of the tree of life, the manna, almonds, figs, pomegranates, grapes, and many other kinds of fruit. We all reclined at the table. I asked Jesus to let me eat of the fruit. He said, not now. Those who eat of the fruit of this land, go back to earth no more. But in a little while if faithful, you shall both eat of the fruit of the tree of life, and drink of the water of the fountain, and he said, you must go back to the earth again, and relate to others, what I have revealed to you. Then an angel bore me gently down to this dark world. Sometimes I think I cannot stay here any longer, all things of earth look so dreary. I feel very lonely here, for I have seen a better land. O, that I had wings like a dove, then would I fly away, and be at rest. Ellen G. Harmon N.B. This was not written for publication; but for the encouragement of all who may see it, and be encouraged by it. E. G. H.

[Gus Foster]

Now, if one quote is not enough for anyone, please read on:

Ellen G. White Published Writings

The search returned 24 items relevant to "Revelation Beasts":

Evangelism, page 204, paragraph 3

Evangelism, page 205, paragraph 1

Evangelism, page 205, paragraph 2

Evangelism, page 577, paragraph 2

The Great Controversy, page 439, paragraph 3

The Ministry of Healing, page 431, paragraph 3

Selected Messages Book 1, page 295, paragraph 1

Selected Messages Book 3, page 309, paragraph 1

S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 6, page 1068, paragraph 4

The Spirit of Prophecy Volume Two, page 15, paragraph 1

Testimonies for the Church Volume Eight, page 261, paragraph 2

The Voice in Speech and Song, page 281, paragraph 2

The Voice in Speech and Song, page 281, paragraph 3

The Great Controversy [1888 edition], page 439, paragraph 3

The Christian Educator, April 1, 1899, paragraph 2

Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, December 17, 1872, paragraph 14

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, November 8, 1898, paragraph 14

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, March 17, 1904, paragraph 14

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, Feburary 7, 1907, paragraph 5

The Signs of the Times, March 13, 1884, paragraph 8

Redemption Or The First Advent Of Christ With His Life And Ministry, page 15, paragraph 1

Manuscript Releases Volume Twelve, page 142, paragraph 1

Manuscript Releases Volume Eighteen, page 27, paragraph 3

Ellen G. White Volume 3 The Lonely Years 1876-1891, page 80, paragraph 2

There is no question that Ellen White believed the four living creatures (beasts) of Revelation were angelic beings, not human, and performed their tasks long before creation.

[Gus Foster]

Quote:

---

Ed White, I don't see where it is stated that this thread is about Revelation 5 & 6. Some of the first discussion was about the trumpets, which is Revelation 8-11. DaveM1936 also gave his summary of the outline of the first half of Revelation.

I would summarize Revelation 1-11 this way

---

What some have overlooked is that the first half of Revelation is an incredible document on righteousness by faith. Christians hail the book of Romans to this end, but fail to see this in the last book. From chapter one to chapter 14 it is a path of God's people to follow in faith, and to wear His robe of righteousness. And He goes to great lenghts in enlightening His people on how to do this. He offers us His attributes, His character, His sacrifice, His

Father, His Holy Spirit, and shares His throne, His home, His meals, His name and His love in the most incrdible way. And He offers all of heavens resources to accomplish this, and there are some who want to argue time and coming events; what travesty!

And some want to continue to dispute the shape, form and being of those offering us these unspeakable gifts. Surge On!

[Gus Foster]

Another major point is that this thread so encompasses that of the current one on the trinity; for the description of the four living beings with six wings, an full of eyes around and about, inside, where the cherubim of Ezekiel 10 and the seraphim of Isaiah 6 and their four sided faces to describe their attributes, are saying the same as in Isa6:3,--"they do not rest day or night, saying Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, who was and who is and who is coming. It is the same song!

For many, the real dispute is not about the creatures, but about the covenant. The majority of the Christian world claims that Revelation is a fulfillment of the OT covenasnts; that of Adam, Noah, Abraham and David. They fail to realize that all were fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and that the covenant law broken by both Israel and Judah; and that the command of Deut 17:18-20 is the fulfillment of the covenants in the hands of Christ in Rev 4 and 5.

Thee is a popular view that Rev 4 and 5 are a judgment scene, and thus the judgment that started in 1844 is related in the rest of the first half of Revelation, thus the seals and the trumpets have yet to be inaugerated. However, there is no proof in Scripture of this, in fact, the opposite is true; that Rev 4 and 5 are a coronation scene at Pentecost, which fulfills all of the OT requirements. In comparing judgment of Dan 7 and coronation of Rev 4 and 5 there are irreconcilable differences. Thus, the first half of Revelation is the partially revealed scroll which is not eschatological, but historical from the time of the ascention until the time of judgment, the close of probation, and the setting of eternity for each soul. There is judgment in the seals and trumpets, such as in 6:10, where judgment has not yet taken place. (future)

Thus those who understand the 4 and 5 chapters have a good handle on the rest of the book.

[Guest]

Gus was you ever around your grandmother that allowed fresh cows milk to sour on the kitchen counter? Next she would place it into a churn and churn the living daylights out of this clabber in an attempt to make real butter. But there was a process many do not know where they could apply it to their theology studies, they need to STAND STILL and stop churning and allow the cream to rise to the top. In Revelation message there should be “no guess work” at all.

“It is not enough to have good intentions; it is not enough to do what a man thinks is right, or what the minister tells him is right. His soul's salvation is at stake, and he should search the Scriptures for himself. However strong may be his convictions, however confident he may be that the minister knows what is truth, this is not his foundation. He has a chart pointing out every way-mark on the heavenward journey, and he ought not to guess at anything. {GC88 598.1}

Revelation message are given by inspiration in ORDER by heaven, “and nothing else should engross our attention” 8T 302

I know of many people that have studied my last days event chart with instruction on the flip side for a day & much of the confusion gleaned while sitting in church disappears. Look for this Last Days Event Chart on my website.

www.shasta.com/edwhite

[Ron Lambert]

When I said that Revelation 2-11 is centered around the Judgment, I meant to say "as portrayed in chapters four and five. Chapter six of course is the seals, which are viewed during the judgment.

Ed, Ellen G. White said "there is a lot of religion in a good loaf of bread." Evidently you believe there is also a lot of religion in a butter churn. (That was an Ed White classic!)

[Guest]

Quote:

---

When I said that Revelation 2-11 is centered around the Judgment, I meant to say "as portrayed in chapters four and five. Chapter six of course is the seals, which are viewed during the judgment.

Ed, Ellen G. White said "there is a lot of religion in a good loaf of bread." Evidently you believe there is also a lot of religion in a butter churn. (That was an Ed White classic!)

---

Thats true Ron, then begining at Revelation 8:6 the Investigative Judgement is over with and now it is time for the exective part of the judgement. The wicked will receive their wages wich is death. But not all of the wicked are allow to die during the 5th trumpet/plague. The want to die, even seeking it "but it shall flee from them".[Rev 9:6] Now we know this is after the close of Probation because those with the seal of God in their forehead [Rev 9:4] the wicked are not allowed to hurt & "torment" like they do to the false ministers seeking death.

[Gus Foster]

Quote:

---

Revelation message are given by inspiration in ORDER by heaven, “and nothing else should engross our attention” 8T 302

I know of many people that have studied my last days event chart with instruction on the flip side for a day & much of the confusion gleaned while sitting in church disappears. Look for this Last Days Event Chart on my website.

---

A partial EGW quote does not fly here, and basically is not a honest way to try to prove a point.

I shake the dust off my feet!