A Revelation Tidbit

[Clio]

Of course they are in the last days. Jesus' time on earth signaled the opening of the true age of Aquarius, just as His return will signal it's end.

We have been in the last days since His ascension.

Clio

[LifeHiscost]

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We have been in the last days since His ascension.

Clio

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Of course, for the whole body of believers, it has been given by Jesus to act on information given by Him for the sake of the salvation of all men. However since very few have been given guarantees beyond their next heartbeat, it would seem only prudent to recognize we are each living in 'the' last days. To ignore that fact is to ignore our mortality and invite eternal disaster, whatever time element the major prophecies might indicate.

[:"red"] "For God says, "At just the right time, I heard you. On the day of salvation, I helped you." Indeed, God is ready to help you right now. Today is the day of salvation." [/] 2 Cor 6:2 NLT

[Clio]

Mmmmm... Very true LHC, but my take generally is the number of my days is irrelevant, because should I die before He returns, the next thing I know will be Jesus in Glory, returning for me.... what matter my mortality, when such glory be headed our way???

The players move on the world stage, Israel, Abba Father's timepiece is ticking... and the pieces are in place for the abomination that is desolation to be set up in the Holy of Holies.

The Sanhedrin is re-formed, the closest living male relative of King David has been found and verified, and there is a move afoot in Israel to return to a theocracy.

Soon the armies will gather in the Valley of Jehoshaphat... will we be ready?

Clio

[Guest]

Well the way Adventism teaching are now so fragmented from going to the world's education system, you can expect nothing but DISASTER coming fron once innocent students that sat at the feet of professor thar are hell bent to detroy Adventism. A generation of students have grown up with pure hate placed on their lips towards the English speaking prophet, and all indication their childern will be trained by the same hirling shepherds. But on the other hand God will take the reins into His own hands and only use people that are walking in the light. The reason Adventism hasn't receiced any advanced light is because of squandering and disrgarding the existing light.

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[Gus Foster]

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If this is your "preference" then DO IT!! It is an insult to heaven to suggest these 4 beast are NOT HUMAN when the bible says they are!!! Revelation 5:8-9 tells that 28 PEOPLE drop to their knees in song because they have been "redeemed".

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For those who believe and teach that the four living 'creatures' are redeemed humans they have lots of company. Let me quote from Uriah Smith, "Daniel and Revelation" pages 411-418:

---"Four living creatures, not beasts---not only creature, but even a human being---

Similar imagery is used in the first chapter of Ezekiel--these living beings are even more intimately connected with the throne than the four and twenty elders--

Like the elders, these in their song to the lamb ascribe to Him praise for having redeemed them from the earth.---

Around these there stood those saints who have been redeeemed; first, those represented by the four living creatures, then the elders forming a second circle, and the angels forming a third circle."

There were many other authors who wrote in the 18th and 19th century who concurred with this assumption. It does have a few problems, since the 4 redeemed would have to have been present in the throneroom in 600 BC or before. And that redeemed men would have the duty of that of the arch-angels.

It seems rather poignant to me that this should be a subject for disagreement, since we are all acting on human conclusion, and probably will all be surprised by many things when living by that throneroom. I agree that error should be addressed, but hopefully by proven truth.

As far as accountability, that thought should humble and drive us all to the torture tree, and at least let us communicate in love and respect and compassion.

[Guest]

Gus said this. "There were many other authors who wrote in the 18th and 19th century who concurred with this assumption. It does have a few problems, since the 4 redeemed would have to have been present in the throneroom in 600 BC or before."

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When the 4 beast & 24 elders assembled in that court room setting in 1844 was right on schedule that Daniel 7:9-10 tells about. So those redeemed people that went to heaven in AD 31, they were on vacation for 1813 years waiting until "the time appointed" [see Daniel 8:19] There was no reason for them to assemble until the "ancient of days" [Dan.7:9] & the "lamb that was slain" came to this court room to begin opening each seal in sucessive order in 1844. Adventism teach correctly the Investigative Judgement, but cannot find it in Revelation, they have yet to discover that the 7 seals IS THE IJ!!!

[DaveM1936]

IMO, the last days started in 1798 when the Pope was taken into captivity and died there. Since 1798 we have been living in the last days. It use this term as meaning the same as "the time of the end."

Your friend,

Dave M

[Ron Lambert]

DaveM1936, sometimes the references used by White Estates in their web page search can seem rather cryptic. Here is what the reference for that quote Ed White used actually means, written out: PAMPHLETS/SpTA07 - Special Testimonies for Ministers and Workers. -- No. 7 (1897)

This same publication has also long been known as Special Testimonies for Ministers and Gospel Workers, Series A, No. 7. Hence the "A" in SpTA07.

By the way, if you don't have the link to EGW Estates search page, here it is:

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=searchform.htm$id=BooleanSearch

Or here is an embedded link that will take you to the same place if you click on it: E.G. White Search

[Ron Lambert]

The expression "time of the end" has been defined variously by SDAs as meaning 1798 or 1844. I think still another definition is actually better. The time of the end is when the very last sequence of events that comprise the final conflict begins.

You might say that a countdown began in 1844, when the Judgment first was seated in Heaven. But there seem to be many "holds" built into the countdown. Even now, we do not know how much longer time will last. There could yet be more delays. But at some point, final events will commence, and there will be no more delays. That point is the true time of the end. I believe this is the proper definition we should use in for the term in Daniel 11:40 and in similar statements in Daniel 12.

[Clio]

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The time of the end is when the very last sequence of events that comprise the final conflict begins. [snip]

But at some point, final events will commence, and there will be no more delays. That point is the true time of the end. I believe this is the proper definition we should use in for the term in Daniel 11:40 and in similar statements in Daniel 12.

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Those events have begun... Time is very, very short. Watch, be ready, and apply a literalness that has never before been necessary when studying end time events. The time of HIS Glory is now, like never before.

Those who will be called to speak before rulers, judges, courts, and sovreigns are being prepared. Prepare ye the way of the Lord. His time is upon us, as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Clio

[DaveM1936]

I agree that most of the Bible texts that mention the time of the end refer to that actual final events. What I presented was (IMO) the standard view. I like your use of the word "hold". 1888 put us into a "holding period". I find it interesting that if we apply the 120 years of Noah's day to us today, 1888 + 120 years = 2008. I have no real evidence to support this. IMO, it is more than a coincendence.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Guest]

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I agree that most of the Bible texts that mention the time of the end refer to that actual final events. What I presented was (IMO) the standard view. I like your use of the word "hold". 1888 put us into a "holding period". I find it interesting that if we apply the 120 years of Noah's day to us today, 1888 + 120 years = 2008. I have no real evidence to support this. IMO, it is more than a coincendence.

Your friend,

Dave M

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Dave did you ever consider seeing what the SOP says about "THE END OF TIME" instead of those puny years back in 1798 where "the time of the end" is considered? Come up to speed and listen to my audiotape "Examining the teachings of Doug Batchelor on Daniel 12 from my website. Groping in darkness can be fatal right here on the banks of crossing Jordan.

[Guest]

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The expression "time of the end" has been defined variously by SDAs as meaning 1798 or 1844. I think still another definition is actually better. The time of the end is when the very last sequence of events that comprise the final conflict begins.

You might say that a countdown began in 1844, when the Judgment first was seated in Heaven. But there seem to be many "holds" built into the countdown. Even now, we do not know how much longer time will last. There could yet be more delays. But at some point, final events will commence, and there will be no more delays. That point is the true time of the end. I believe this is the proper definition we should use in for the term in Daniel 11:40 and in similar statements in Daniel 12.

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Ron this "countdown in 1844" you tell about, does it take us to "the very eve of the great conummation" from the prothec pen? you studies I don't believe do that, but maybe you could find comfort in a open letter I wrote to Jeff Pippenger a few years ago.

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An Open Letter to Jeff Pippenger

Ed White

P0 Box 251

Hornbrook, CA 96044

Jan. 20, 2003

Over the last few years I have had many people send me your audio tapes, books or printed material by E-mail concerning end time events. I have read & listened very carefully. To me it seems that you measure success by the level of success that Ron Spear, the Stsndish's, or Uriah Smith has obtained. Your defense of these brethren year after year will cripple your reasoning powers to know with certainty the correct timing of end time events. There are grand and wonderful truths that those brethren refuse to consider, being satisfied with their already obtained accomplishments.

NO, the prophecies of the Bible that truly apply to the future, you and others, [that measure success with a warped view] have applied to the past. How very shallow to instruct the last generation of God's professed people with this DECEPTION. The memory work of the seminary trained ministers to receive a passing grade in order to receive their preaching credentials was absent of plain Bible & SOP instruction. Your understanding of end time events allows you to not go beyond the year of 1844, but serious Bible students will search from inspiration in search of "the very eve of the great consummation." [THE SECOND COMING]

"In the Scriptures are presented truths that relate especially to our own time. To the period just prior to the appearing of the Son of man, the prophecies of Scripture point, and here their warnings and threatenings preeminently apply. The prophetic periods of Daniel, extending to the very eve of the great consummation, throw a flood of light upon events then to transpire. The book of Revelation is also replete with warning and instruction for the last generation. The beloved John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, portrays the fearful and thrilling scenes connected with the close of earth's history, and presents the duties and dangers of God's people. None need remain in ignorance, none need be unprepared for the coming of the day of God." [cf: RH 09-25-83, para. 6] p. 204, para. 2, [188 3SM].

"The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the word of truth. We have only glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to cone to us. We are not making the most of the light which the Lord has already given us, and thus we fail to receive the increased light; we do not walk in light already shed upon us." (cf: RH 06-03-90, para. 2] p. 300, para. 1, [1890 MS].

Jeff what you are defending will fall flat on it's face [as Dagon the fish god fell before the Ark] in the very near future. Lawrence Nelson and all such surface reader's teachings will not help you then. Remove yourself from that stagnant water, there are trade winds blowing out there, away from the doldrums and the teaching of one man's mind. Listen online to my audio tapes, "Examining the teaching" of Bob Trefz, Tim Sminkin, Marion Berry, Bill Hughes, Verne Bates and especially the Historic Adventist who have leg irons on, placed there by their mother church. www.shasta.com/edwhite

[Ron Lambert]

Ed, thanks for that quote. You tend to be rather combative in your remarks; I think you would be more effective breathing less fire and brimstone. But you are correct in seeing that more Bible prophecies apply to the future than traditional teachings allow.

I believe that as soon as the woman begins riding the beast, so to speak--as soon as there is a re-organization of the nations of Europe with a more religious emphasis, and then the Papacy is invited to take charge of directing that European "Beast" power (thus setting up the "abomination of desolation"), that will be the start of the 1290 and 1335 day prophecies of Daniel 12. This is when final events are on a timed schedule and there is no more delay. 75 days after the woman begins to ride the beast, a similar movement in America will lead to the enactment of a National Sunday Law. This provides the means for all the world to worship the beast and his image, so this is when the Judgment of the Living begins. The Judgment of the Living, along with the Great Time of Trouble which takes place at the same time, will last 1260 days. At the end of the 1290 days the European beast will turn on the woman, and devour her, as foretold in Revelation 17:16, 17. However, even though Babylon falls at that point, the persecution of God's people by the European and American beasts will continue until the end. 45 days later, the 1260 days and 1335 days will end. (Because the 1260 day period begins later, it ends at the same time as the 1335 days.) That point is when the saints are delivered, and are blessed. We don't know how much time will elapse between the deliverance of God's people and the Second Coming, but it surely be only a few days or weeks.

The time of the end, as I see it, comes when the timed schedule of final events begins, in which there are no delays up to the deliverance of the saints.

[Clio]

Erhm... Ron... There will be no EU beast. Daniel 2 makes that very clear. The feet and toes of iron and clay never solidify into one cohesive unit... no matter how much man wishes they would.

When the Stone cut without a man's hand arrives, and shatters the kingdoms of earth... the 10 toes, the feet, of iron and clay, the remnant of the Roman empire, are still iron and clay. Never to mix, never to cleave together.

clio

[Ron Lambert]

Clio, if there is to be no European beast, then who is the first beast in Revelation 13:1, that rises out of the sea? Is this not the beast that the woman of Revelation 17 is to ride? There is a European Union in existence now, with its own currency--the Euro. Granted, this is a very loose association, united only for economic purposes. Let them become just a little more united, for a religious purpose, invoking all the methods of attacking God's people that past empires have used, and that is all that is required. They will still be ten states, since the beast has ten horns. And even that confederacy of states will only last a few years. Europe has been united before, at least the vast majority of states, for a short time. By Napoleon, by Hitler, by Charlemagne, etc. The prophecy in Daniel 2:43 says "they shall not cleave one to another...." The prophecy is also clear that at various times and by various means they will try to cleave to one another, but it will not last. No matter what kind of "glue" they try to use, it will not stick together for long.

[Gus Foster]

THE 4 LIVING CREATURES:

Edwin Thiele; Outline Studies in Revelation, pg 97,98--

"While the living creatures may be regarded as of the angels (as pictured by those covering the ark in the Holy of Holies) they may more properly be regarded as above the angels, the living ones at the side of God and at the command of God, ready to be instantly dispatched to any part of this world or God's universe."

Ellen White; R&H dec 22, 1896---

"The seriphim before the throne are so filled with reverential awe in beholding the glory of God that they do not for an instant look upon themselves with self-complacency, or in admiration of themselves or one another."

Ellen White; The Spirit of Prophecy, Vol 1, pg 272 and in

Signs of the Times March 21, 1911 she made reference to the 4 living creatures as a pattern for the angels in the HH earthly sanctuary. She stated; "there, beside the heavenly ark, stand the living angels--"

Using Ellen White to prove or disprove a Scripture interpretation can be fruitless, as in some cases both sides or many sides of a dispute can be presented, especially prophetic, eschatological, because symbolic language is not always cronological nor cultural, nor fully defined by human sources. Since our source on the four living creeatures are in Revelation, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Zechariah, and some Apocrypha (definition; having little or no authority) books, and are unclear as to exact definitions or origins, it seems impossible to be positive as to interpretation. Another accomplishment by God to be veiwed at a later time.

[Clio]

First, the vision that begins in Revelation 13:1 doesn't conclude until the end of Revelation chapter 16. Then in Revelation Chapter 17 the angel begins to explain to John the vision he just had.

Notice in 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

The angel here is talking about the beast we saw coming up out of the sea in 13:1! Verse 8 tells us some important things about the beast. It will go into perdition. It rises from the bottomless pit, people who dwell on the earth, and whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life will marvel at it, for it was, is not, and yet is. These are all actions that will occur... but are not true clues to who... or what... this beast is. Those come in Verse 9.

Revelation 17:9 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth

Ok... now... we know Bible symbolism a woman ALWAYS represents a church... church not being a denomination, but the full body of believers who offer true worship to the Most High, and whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Therefore, the woman sitting on the 7 hills the Whore of Babylon, is a religious system that offers false worship to the Most High... the opposite of the woman arrayed in white linen.

The seven heads are seven mountains... or oros in greek which can also mean hills... So for the mind which has wisdom... we are looking at a false religious system sitting on seven mountains or hills...

Beasts are always kingdoms... So we have a beast representing a sovereign political system situated in a place of 7 hills or mountains. There is only one city in all the world that is known for it's 7 hills. The city of Rome. Situated in the very heart of Rome ON TOP OF THE 7 HILLS, is Vatican City... represented by the woman in scarlet and purple...

Interestingly enough... there are some attributes of the Vatican we should consider. The Vatican is a sovreign entity. The Pope is the equivalent of a secular head of state, the cardinals are called Princes of the Church and are the equivalent of any prince of royal blood in the crowned houses of Europe. The colors of the cardinals are scarlet and purple. The Vatican has a seat on all the UN councils except the Security Council, where it can still issue advisory opinions.

In 1798, the beast which was... became not... when the then pope was taken in battle in Avignon France and later died as a result of wounds received with a sword while in captivity. The then Pope was also the "head" so this beast was wounded in the head, with a grievous wound.

In 1980, Ronald Reagan was the first of any nation in the world to send a plenipotentiary ambassador to the Vatican, acknowledging it's sovereignty, and treating it as a sovereign state, with "all the rights and appurtenances thereto". The beast was, is not, and is again.

Therefore this beast is a religio-political system upon which the Whore or False Church sits. And she sits on many waters... which are explained in 17:15. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

What religious system, that can be personified by false worship covers peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues? The global RCC claims sovereignity over 1 BILLION + people! 1/6th of all the earth....

Revelation 17:18 is even more explicity And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Another interesting item about the Vatican, is that until it's power was broken in 1798... the crowned heads of state from Russia to England ruled at the pleasure of the Pope. He had the authority to excommunicate them and authorize Holy War to remove a crowned king for the spiritual benefit of the subjects that king ruled.

It happened many times in the Wars of the Roses between English branches of the royal family, and drew in the Kings of France in the 100 years war. Even the Magna Carta on which are laws are based did little to put a stop to the Pope's meddling in English and French politics. It is why Kings and Queens in Europe are still crowned and blessed by Arch-Bishops at a minimum. Cardinals if they can be had.

The reason there is an Anglican communion in England is because John Plantagenet who was the younger brother of Richard the Lion Heart was excommunicated by the Pope. Rather than allow his throne to be taken by Catholic King Louis of France, he formed the "Church of England" and fought for his throne. It was because of this war that his barons were able to get him to sign the Magna Carta. In exchange for this, they agreed that John or the ruling head of state would also always be head of the Church of England... which has since become known as the Anglican Communion.

clio

[Guest]

Clio are you on horseback as you type? No one can make heads or tails of your abundance of words that seldom ever apply.

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" I was shown that the truth once published now, will stand, for it is the truth for the last days; it will live, and less need be said upon it in future. Numberless words need not be put upon paper to justify what speaks for itself and shines in its clearness. Truth is straight, plain, clear, and stands out boldly in its own defense; but it is not so with error. It is so winding and twisting that it needs a multitude of words to explain it in its crooked form." SOP

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Gus you have started off wrong again!!! Remember start marching with your left foot. Revelation 5:9 tell bible students that the 4 beasts are humans!! Find someone that reads their bible to quote instead of Mr. Edwin Thiele that got started off wrong also.

[Ron Lambert]

Ed, that was a bit unkind. I applaud anyone who tries to figure out Revelation 17, even though I have never seen anyone make convincing sense out of it yet--at least not convincing to me. The seven heads and ten horns seem like contradictory symbols, and the "was, is, not yet, will continue a space" specification has been a happy hunting ground for a lot of speculations about this, that, and the other pope or whatever. But I would encourage, rather than discourage, people to try to understand the prophecy. Still, we need to remember to be consistent in the way we interpret prophetic symbols, all according to the way the Bible uses those same symbols elsewhere. Interpreting Bible prophecy should not be an exercise in who has the most fantastic imagination. "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." (2 Peter 1:20.)

[Clio]

It's ok Ron. He can say what he likes. It can't hurt me. Either I'm right or I'm wrong... but so far... that hasn't seemed to have an impact on my salvation.

If Jesus or Abba Father is ever pleased to clear up this particular prophecy for me... They haven't made it a priority... so I'll just keep digging and looking for parallels.

Have you ever noticed how the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Joel have much of the same imagery in them as Revelation 8 & 9?

clio

[DaveM1936]

No, I have never done a study in EGW on the subject of "the end of time". I will have to do it.

Your friend,

Dave M

[DaveM1936]

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I applaud anyone who tries to figure out Revelation 17, even though I have never seen anyone make convincing sense out of it yet--at least not convincing to me. The seven heads and ten horns seem like contradictory symbols, and the "was, is, not yet, will continue a space" specification has been a happy hunting ground for a lot of speculations about this, that, and the other pope or whatever. But I would encourage, rather than discourage, people to try to understand the prophecy.

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I have made an indepth study of Rev 17. I believe that I can present convincingly and clearly what I believe. I am afraid to tackle subjects like this because someone will "jump all over me", to quote a fellow poster. I know several of us would like to openly discuss it. Can we survive the oppostion?

YOur friend,

Dave M

[Clio]

Dave, I'd like to hear what you've dug up... You've seen mine.

Clio

PS --> in the interests of perhaps clarity... a new thread entitled Revelations 17?

[Guest]

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Ed, that was a bit unkind. I applaud anyone who tries to figure out Revelation 17, even though I have never seen anyone make convincing sense out of it yet--at least not convincing to me. The seven heads and ten horns seem like contradictory symbols, and the "was, is, not yet, will continue a space" specification has been a happy hunting ground for a lot of speculations about this, that, and the other pope or whatever. But I would encourage, rather than discourage, people to try to understand the prophecy. Still, we need to remember to be consistent in the way we interpret prophetic symbols, all according to the way the Bible uses those same symbols elsewhere. Interpreting Bible prophecy should not be an exercise in who has the most fantastic imagination. "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." (2 Peter 1:20.)

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No Ron that was not unkind to Clio, if she had read the posts at the start and all along the way before posting she would have known that this THREAD IS about Revelation 5 & 6! That's the reason I asked if she was on horseback, sometimes a galloping horse steps in a gopher hole and chapters 5 & 6 could have flown out of her bible.

Start a thread on Revelation 17 and see what we all have to say there. OK?