A Revelation Tidbit

[DaveM1936]

Ed, you and I have gone around and around several times on this subject. You put all of this into the future. I have heard of no one else who does this. It appears to me that your ideas are set in concrete. I have concluded that the best we can do is agree to disagree. You will not change my viewpoint and I know I cannot change yours.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Guest]

Dave, no not at all, I am willing to surrender my studies immediately to evidence!!! Hearsay is not allowed in a court of law, yet it is put on the throne in Adventist Theology when it comes to explaining Revelation messages. You have embrased this memory work theology of a past gereration from a man that was a "Achan in the camp". Ellen White says of Urriah Smith that he "was ALWAYS ON THE WRONG SIDE".You have swallowed his message hook line & sinker, the same instruction was allowed entrance into SDA seminaries. You know it, I know it! Better read Isaiah 33:14 again where there are 6 conditions to be on the right vessle, but if these condition are not met, then read the last part of that chapter that tells of this ship breaking up un the rocks "and the lame take the prey".

[Gregory Matthews]

Ed:

Please supply us with the reference where we can find that EGW said Smith was always on the wrong side.

Until you do that, you comment is simply hearsey, which you will agreee is not evidence.

[Guest]

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Ed:

Please supply us with the reference where we can find that EGW said Smith was always on the wrong side.

Until you do that, you comment is simply hearsey, which you will agreee is not evidence.

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Gregory thanks for the opporunity to do just that. It is found in the "letters to the Battle Creek Church", written the same year that her husband had died in 1881. Much of the early part of 5T can this letter be found with instruction to "Our Colleges". But you want to read the account as it was originally given which I will be glad to send you a hard copy where you can see the entire paragraphs deleted in 5T. Especially everything determental to Br. Smith & his wife.

My search feature on all the original SOP & pioneer books crashed about 6 months ago and I need a computer whiz to re-install, but I will leave no stone unturned until I honor your request. I will dig out one of my old tapes where I was examining the teachings of Bob Trefz and that statement is given there.

[Gus Foster]

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above to Dave also apply to you. When I go to the link you have provided I know exactly what you expect people to believe. You expect people to beliece that Revelation 8:1 is FUTURE, but all the rest of Revelation 8 & 9 are in the PAST!!! just the way Keith , E. Gibbon & U. Smith taught it. That is very shallow my friend to lean so heavly on another generation bible research. I will pass on that serving!!! There is better nourshment in God's word & the SOP than to be dwarf mentally with over the hill study guides from the world. Where are the "people of the book" anymore???

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You're streching, and I'm not buying. Rev 8:1 is the form of John's writing; he states a synopsis, and then explains in capsule, and then in detail. Rev 8:l covers the whole period from John's vision until the close of probation in the 7's. Actually, if one follows your statement, the trumpets did not start until the seals were completed, which is perposturous. Rev 8:1 is not part of the trumpets. Jesus said 'today you shall be with me in paradise'---you are doing the same as do professed; when was today? What is the silence---if you mention Ehud you're close! I'm gone for now.

[Guest]

"But how do men fall into such error? By starting with false premises, and then bringing everything to bear to prove the error true." TM 364.01

What you have done sir is to start off wrong [on a false premise] in THINKING that these 7 seals ARE PERIODS OF TIME!!! That is exactly what world taught in the 1700s and Adventist inherited it. But it is not true at all, the 7 seals is about 7 different groups [generations of people] being judged in groups AFTER 1844 when the IJ begin.

"A lie, believed, practiced, becomes a truth to them." TM 363.04-364

This is exactly what has taken place in Adventism on most all of Revelations messages, because there was “an Achen in the camp” .

Put your "synopsis" into your "capsule" and swallow it, but "when Jesus spoke to the people the common people heard Him gladly and they did't even need a DICTIONARY". I don't think He has changed any since then either.

[DaveM1936]

When one takes one sentence out of context and then applies it erronously to his own ideas, people have to question the validity of his arguments. Following is the entire passage from TM. She is talking about the events surrounding the 1888 General Conference. Jones and Waggoner were attacked by the established church leaders. The issue was righteousness by faith alone in Jesus. I fail to see how this applies to putting the seals and the trumpets into the future.

"Those who are enjoined to represent the attributes of the Lord's character, step from the Bible platform, and in their own human judgment devise rules and resolutions to force the will of others. The devisings for forcing men to follow the prescriptions of other men are instituting an order of things that overrides sympathy and tender compassion, that blinds the eyes to mercy, justice, and the love of God. Moral influence and personal responsibility are trodden underfoot. {TM 363.1}

"The righteousness of Christ by faith has been ignored by some; for it is contrary to their spirit and their whole life experience. Rule, rule, has been their course of action. Satan has had an opportunity of representing himself. When one who professes to be a representative of Christ engages in sharp dealing and in pressing men into hard places, those who are thus oppressed will either break every fetter of restraint, or they will be led to regard God as a hard master. They cherish hard feelings against God, and the soul is alienated from Him, just as Satan planned it should be. {TM 363.2}

"This hardheartedness on the part of men who claim to believe the truth Satan charges to the influence of the truth itself, and thus men become disgusted and turn from the truth. For this reason no man should have a responsible connection with our institutions who thinks it no important matter whether he has a heart of flesh or a heart of steel. {TM 363.3}

"Men think they are representing the justice of God, but they do not represent His tenderness and the great love wherewith He has loved us. Their human invention originating with the specious devices of Satan, appears fair enough to the blinded eyes of men, because it is inherent in their nature. A lie, believed, practiced, becomes a truth to them. Thus the purpose of the satanic agencies is accomplished, that men should reach these conclusions through the working of their own inventive minds. {TM 363.4}

"But how do men fall into such error? By starting with false premises, and then bringing everything to bear to prove the error true. In some cases the first principles have a measure of truth interwoven with the error, but it does not lead to any just action, and this is why men are misled. In order to reign and become a power, they employ Satan's methods to justify their own principles. They exalt themselves as men of superior judgment, and they have stood as representatives of God. These are false gods. " -TM 364.1}

Your friend,

Dave M

[Gus Foster]

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What you have done sir is to start off wrong [on a false premise] in THINKING that these 7 seals ARE PERIODS OF TIME!!! That is exactly what world taught in the 1700s and Adventist inherited it. But it is not true at all, the 7 seals is about 7 different groups [generations of people] being judged in groups AFTER 1844 when the IJ begin

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If I'm saying that the first 4 seals are the acts of heaven as depicted by the visions of Eze & Zech in the sealing of God's people and the separation of the professed (as seen by the 4 creatures, and the horses) (which I am) starting at pentecost, and varying in intensity, how can you possibly construe that as 'periods of time'? I cannot fathom that functioning of any human mind. God thinks His will, the 4 arch-angels comply, the messenger is sent, and the intensity depends on the circumstance, even unto death, both physical and spiritual. --For 20 centuries---now watch as history is ending----

Those of us that are positive that our way, our thoughts are the only correct ways, need to let the Holy Spirit work in others, and some have more light than others, and always will. We cannot judge salvation for and to others by our environment; look to Jesus and let others do the same. Correctness in revealtion interpretation is never a requiremant for relationship. The only thing is that some will be deceived, (many) because they are following men instead of Scripture--we cannot save anyone. Nor can we judge them---just love them and show them Jesus (the love of the Father) in you!

[Guest]

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What you have done sir is to start off wrong [on a false premise] in THINKING that these 7 seals ARE PERIODS OF TIME!!! That is exactly what world taught in the 1700s and Adventist inherited it. But it is not true at all, the 7 seals is about 7 different groups [generations of people] being judged in groups AFTER 1844 when the IJ begin

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If I'm saying that the first 4 seals are the acts of heaven as depicted by the visions of Eze & Zech in the sealing of God's people and the separation of the professed (as seen by the 4 creatures, and the horses) (which I am) starting at pentecost, and varying in intensity, how can you possibly construe that as 'periods of time'? I cannot fathom that functioning of any human mind. God thinks His will, the 4 arch-angels comply, the messenger is sent, and the intensity depends on the circumstance, even unto death, both physical and spiritual. --For 20 centuries---now watch as history is ending----

Those of us that are positive that our way, our thoughts are the only correct ways, need to let the Holy Spirit work in others, and some have more light than others, and always will. We cannot judge salvation for and to others by our environment; look to Jesus and let others do the same. Correctness in revealtion interpretation is never a requiremant for relationship. The only thing is that some will be deceived, (many) because they are following men instead of Scripture--we cannot save anyone. Nor can we judge them---just love them and show them Jesus (the love of the Father) in you!

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Gus if you will notice just ONE thing and I will let all your other discrepencies slide. The 4 "beast" in Revelation 5 and 6 are not angels at all, they are human beings now in heaven. They came from this EARTH and have been "redeemed". [5:9] They might not think to kindly of you suggesting they are from the angelic host of which satan fell when their roots are from this earth. Now unless you open your bible and read this FOR YOURSELF, then you will never know will you? After you open your bible and read this, then go back and read my other posts on the 7 seal since your premise has now changed from reading Gods word instead of following tradition.

[Guest]

While everyone is sitting on their hands, consider WHAT steps one should take "when a brother is teaching truth".

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"If a brother is teaching error, those who are in responsible positions ought to know it; and if he is teaching truth, they ought to take their stand at his side. We should all know what is being taught among us; for if it is truth, we need to know it. The Sabbath school teacher needs to know it, and every Sabbath school scholar ought to understand it. We are all under obligation to God to understand what He sends us. He has given directions by which we may test every doctrine--"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." But if it is according to this test, do not be so full of prejudice that you cannot acknowledge a point simply because it does not agree with your ideas. {TM 110.3}

[Gus Foster]

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Gus if you will notice just ONE thing and I will let all your other discrepencies slide. The 4 "beast" in Revelation 5 and 6 are not angels at all, they are human beings now in heaven. They came from this EARTH and have been "redeemed". [5:9] They might not think to kindly of you suggesting they are from the angelic host of which satan fell when their roots are from this earth. Now unless you open your bible and read this FOR YOURSELF, then you will never know will you? After you open your bible and read this, then go back and read my other posts on the 7 seal since your premise has now changed from reading Gods word instead of following tradition.

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Iwould prefer to let Scripture interpret Scripture, and since John's whole prophecy is mostly quotes from the 'prophets' I always find it best to find the quote and apply it to the church or, in this case, to heaven itself. Rev 5:9 is not a description of the four living creatures, but a praise song to the Lamb. The four living creatures are expressly described as to who and what and duties in Ezekiel 1; very vivid, very explicit and very descriptive. Just as plain are the four horses described in Zech 6, and again their presence and duties are explicit.

What I find most intriguing is that anyone on earth can pray for any one of these horses to visit a situation or individual on earth--incredible. Many have been doing this for years----the blessing is enormous!

[DaveM1936]

I have to agree with Ed on this one. I have done my own in depth study and came to the same conclusion as he did. In Daniel 7, for instance, is a scene in heaven. God is sitting on His throne. The Judgment has begun. But on a lower level are assoicate judges. Where did they come from? They are represented by the 24 elders. When Jesus rose from the dead, many "saints" were resurrected with Him. It seems to me that the conclusion is obvious. These are the "elders" who arose with Jesus.

The four livinng creatures had these faces: lion, ox, eagle, man. First, they are similiar to the emablems on the banners of the twelve tribes. When they moved from place to place, they marched in groups of 3 tribes. Each of the four divisions has one of these emblems on it.

Then, they also refer to the various qualities of Christ:

lion - majesty

ox - strength

eagle- watch care

man - wisdom

Your friend,

Dave M

[Guest]

Gus said this. "Iwould prefer to let Scripture interpret Scripture"

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If this is your "preference" then DO IT!! It is an insult to heaven to suggest these 4 beast are NOT HUMAN when the bible says they are!!! Revelation 5:8-9 tells that 28 PEOPLE drop to their knees in song because they have been "redeemed".

[Anthony!]

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Bravus I perceieve you want to be helpful by coming to Gus's defence, but since he is a grown boy, why not let him answer for himself? My posts above contains facts & figures from scripture which I think should be the only place to start in considering the 7 Trumpets of Revelation. Having spurious books in ones lap as they type will dwarft reasoning powers until they are useless. We have all seen much of that!! And there will be more dwarfing of reasoning powers TOMORROW as people continue guarding another mans study that has nothing to do with bible truth.

In Testmony To Ministers about 337 is a statement that goes like this "How dare they advance ideas unless they know whence it came and that it is the truth".

I second that motion! "How dare they..."

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(bold type supplied)

Ed White, you are in error to lift this quote out of its context and apply it to this discussion on Revelation. Ellen White was writing explicitly in the context of Seventh-day Adventist pastors and ministers who use the pulpit for the exposition of politics. It is from a chapter entitled "A Warning Against Political Entanglements" written to the General Conference of 1897. Your quote is from a section of that chapter entitled "Strange Fire".

Here it is in context:

"When the speaker shall, in a haphazard way, strike in anywhere, as the fancy takes him, when he talks politics to the people, he is mingling the common fire with the sacred. He dishonors God. He has not real evidence from God that he is speaking the truth. He does his hearers a grievous wrong. He may plant seeds which may strike their fibrous roots deep, and they spring up and bear poisonous fruit. How dare men do this? How dare they advance ideas when they do not know certainly whence they came, or that they are the truth?"

You are in error to apply this even to individuals who have a different view than you regarding their personal study of Revelation.

How would you like it if I opined that Ed White is doing the work of the scatterer, spreading the weed seeds of fringe Adventism in the succulent gardens planted by the Whites and their gardeners? Oh yes, and I would use part of the above quote and say "He dishonors God. He has not real evidence from God that he is speaking the truth".

Fair or not?

[Gus Foster]

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Poster: DaveM1936

Subject: Re: A Revelation Tidbit

I have to agree with Ed on this one. I have done my own in depth study and came to the same conclusion as he did. In Daniel 7, for instance, is a scene in heaven. God is sitting on His throne. The Judgment has begun. But on a lower level are assoicate judges. Where did they come from? They are represented by the 24 elders. When Jesus rose from the dead, many "saints" were resurrected with Him. It seems to me that the conclusion is obvious. These are the "elders" who arose with Jesus.

The four livinng creatures had these faces: lion, ox, eagle, man. First, they are similiar to the emablems on the banners of the twelve tribes. When they moved from place to place, they marched in groups of 3 tribes. Each of the four divisions has one of these emblems on it.

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What both Ed an Dave state are true facts, and one could descern the 4 as being 'resurreced beings'. To make that true for Rev 5,6,7 etc one would have to give these 'beings' a role to earth from heaven, and would have to state that these beings in Ezekiel one are also the same ressurrected beings, since John's pointing to them originates in Ezekiels vision; which John uses to show the application of the seals to the earth, and which direct the 'messengers', horses to the earth. One would further be forced to ascertain that the horses (messengers) of Zech 6 are also resurrected beings, since men would be placed over angels. We must be aware that the seals are the happenings directed from heaven which will take place on the earth, and the 'scroll' even contains the 'book of life' as it develops. Actually, the scroll contains all of the recorded books; all! They become the recorded history of earth.

[Guest]

Gus said this. "We must be aware that the seals are the happenings directed from heaven which will take place on the earth, and the 'scroll' even contains the 'book of life' as it develops. Actually, the scroll contains all of the recorded books; all! They become the recorded history of earth."

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This is old repeated memorywork that Adventist inherited from the world that is dryer than the hill of Gilboa! The 7 seals are 7 generation of people being judged in successive order beginning in 1844 with those that first lived on this earth, and it closes with the living. The book that Jesus take from the Fathers hand is a book of deeds.

Please provide the proof text for your claim. You know it can't be done even if you had the material in all SDA evangelist briefcases when they spoke on Revelation 5 & 6.

Worse than being on a dead end street.

[Gus Foster]

Ed, you seem to have a bit of an negative edge about religion in general and Adventists in particular. My understanding on Revelation has nothing to do with all the beliefs and books you quote about my understanding--it was arrived at by studying every verse and every phrase of every chapter, and finding its source and meaning from the Scripture in which John used as key to understanding his symbolism.

I love history. No one lives in history, as all have lived in the present time in which they live. However, history is given as reproof, advice and admonition, and understanding of culture and envirnoment. The Greeks taught that character was history, and so it is. I can learn to improve my chracter by studying the experince of others, and I can learn respect from and to others. As I glance thru my bookshelves and at the prophecy section, I see some commentaries on Daniel and Reveltion. One is by a nurse from Texas, written in 1977, and Verlene Dewitt Youngberg places much of the seals and trumpets in the history of Israel; she does a reasonably good job. I haven't read it in quite some time, but her reasoning is solid, and the book edifying, since she lifts up Jesus. Obviously, my understanding of the same texts are different, but I neither comdemn her nor naysay.

Again, for anyone that might be interested, the best commentary on Revelation is a new one written by Prof. Ranko Stefanovic and will be used for years in teaching our teachers. The process of interpretation is to use the OT Scripture in magnifying John's symbolism to today's time.

These last few weeks' headlines could be written from this study. And sop will the closing weeks of history, which we are all about to live.

The 4 arch-angels of Eze 1 & Rev 4-8 are guiding the earth's inhabitants through history, and their descriptions show express guidance and direction from the throne to God's people. The 24 elders certainly are resurrected, and their duties can be seen in 1 Cron 24. The 7 seals start at the first Pentecost and 1844 does not enter into the scriptural picture unless one subscribes to the historical method of interpretation. Even Pro Stefanovic states that the churches, seals and trumpets have their origin at Pentecost (in heaven).

[Guest]

Gus said this. "Even Pro Stefanovic states that the churches, seals and trumpets have their origin at Pentecost (in heaven)."

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There is nothing original about this, this is the EXACT same error that one could hear at almost all SDA evangelist efforts. But sir, not one trumpet has sounded. The first trumpet ONLY sounds/occurs after Jesus throws down the censer [close of probation]in 8:5 THEN & not until then will the first trumpet sound. This thought that the first church/seal/trumpet commenced in AD one, is old, old error. But lets nail something down, had you rather talk about the seals or the trumpets?

[Gus Foster]

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Gus said this. "Iwould prefer to let Scripture interpret Scripture"

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If this is your "preference" then DO IT!! It is an insult to heaven to suggest these 4 beast are NOT HUMAN when the bible says they are!!! Revelation 5:8-9 tells that 28 PEOPLE drop to their knees in song because they have been "redeemed".

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Actually, Rev 5:8,9 does not identify 'creatures', 'beings' as created humans. The Greek 'Zoon' taken from 'Zoa' means 'living creatures', 'beasts'; and is in contrast to Rev 8:9, creatures, Gr 'ktisma', from 'ktizo', 'created by building', 'to build', which sets the two apart. Since modern scholars today know that these creatures represent those of Ezekiels vision of Eze 1: 'beings/creatures' in Hebrew; 'nephesh' interpreted mean 'living beings'. But the word Ezekiel uses is 'cha'y'yah', meaning 'to come to life', which is in contrast to 'beings', 'cha'yah', meaning 'to restore to life' which contrast the created angels from the created man. Ezekiel sees angelic beings and describes in shadows of resembling man, in their appearance and actions. Certainly John's description of these 4 beings is the same as Ezekiels,n (there are some differences, and that is a detailed study) and the faces represent guidance and direction from God, not actually making them earthly beings. Even in Eze 1:8, 'hands of a man' indicate guidance from God, such as a hand appearing in Dan 5:5.

Further study in Ezek 10 calls them cheribim with a man's appearance. Isaiah calls them seraphim in Isa 6. There is a much longer study involved to ascertain certainly, and should be done inductively, investigating every nuonce.

Rev 5:8 states that all of creation sings this song, not just mankind, and this is not the 'song of Moses' which only the redeemed can sing. Just keep reading; vs 11, 12; all of heaven sing this song. Thus the picture in heaven at this time of Pentecost is that heaven's occupants of all levels honor their God and His Son.

It does appear that some on our forum seek punching bags and scriptural adversaries. I don't mind being the bag, but I shall never argue Scripture past a reasonable presentation.

[Guest]

Gus said this. "I don't mind being the bag, but I shall never argue Scripture past a reasonable presentation."

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Sir you don't even have an arguement when you disregard Scripture, this is called wishful thinking on your part. The bible verses mention shows plainly that the 28 people that are singing BECAUSE they have been "redeemed". Only the planet EARTH needs redemption. I would never speculate over a redeemed person roots by suggesting they are angels. You boldness in clinging to old establish error is no virtue, it will all vanish someday soon. How long have you been enjoying this brand of freedom without any accountability?

[Ron Lambert]

We Adventists too often have failed to take a proper attitude into our study of Bible prophecy. Too often we are willing to imagine some "literary pattern" or other rationalization and impose it upon the text in order to justify what has been a long-standing traditional interpretation we as a church have been teaching for generations. The right attitude is always to go by what the text says, using sound exegetical methods of interpretation, allowing the Bible to interpret its own terms and symbols, and let the chips fall where they may.

The view that the seven churches, seals, and trumpets refer mostly to past history depends upon assuming that the vision of the scene in Heaven in Revelation chapters four and five depict the scene at Christ's Ascension to Heaven after His Resurrection, because the seven churches, seals, and trumpets are all presented in the context of the Heavenly scene in chapters four and five.

But let us use sound exegesis. Look at the verse that introduces the heavenly scene, Revelation 4:1:

"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, 'Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.'" (NKJV)

What does "after these things" mean? It either means that what is presented in chapters four and five take place after the times and events presented in the prophecy of the seven churches, or else it just means that what follows is just what John saw next.

The latter possibility is contradicted by the second statement, at the end of the same verse: "...'Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.'" This leaves no question that the vision of chapters four and five present something that takes place future from the times and events presented in what went just before, the prophecy of the seven churches.

No matter what interpretation you take of the seven churches, there is no question that they apply after the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ. The book of Revelation was written about sixty years after the Ascension of Christ. Thus there is no way that chapters four and five can represent the scene in Heaven at Christ's Ascension.

The only remaining possibility is that chapters four and five represent the Judgment taking place in Heaven. Is this confirmed further by what the text actually says?

Yes. Consider verses two and three of chapter four:

"Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, 'Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?' And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it."

Isn't the question "Who is worthy" a question involving the judgment? That is precisely what the judgment is intended to determine--who is worthy. The text goes on to say that no one on earth, or in the entire universe, was found worthy to open the scroll (book in other versions) and loose its seals. But then we read that the Lamb was found to be worthy. Finding someone worthy is as plain an act of judgment as can be conceived.

Notice that it was because Jesus was Judged to be worthy--it is because of the Judgment--that the seals were loosed so the scroll could be opened. Therefore the conclusion cannot be escaped that the prophecy of the seven seals flow out from the Judgment, and so must be associated with the Judgment. Then, since the prophecy of the seven trumpets follows immediately after that of the seals, it too must be associated with the Judgment.

These evidences lead me to conclude that the prophecies of the seven seals and of the seven trumpets pertain to times and events that take place on earth at the same time that the Judgment of the Living is taking place in Heaven.

The same holds true for the prophecy of the seven churches. Notice what was said to the church of Thyatira: "...and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts." (Rev. 2:23; NKJV) This statement implies that all the churches exist simultaneously. Otherwise, how could the earlier churches learn from the example made of the fourth church? The traditional interpretation is that the first church was the church immediately after the time of the Apostles, and the Thyatiran church did not come along until the establishment of the Papacy, hundreds of years later. Thus we see that the traditional interpretation is impossible.

Also notice what was promised to the Philadelphian church: "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." (Rev. 3:10; NKJV)

This is a plain description of the Time of Test that comes to the world while the Judgment of the Living is taking place in Heaven. There are other references to a soon-coming Judgment in Rev. 2:5; 3:1, 5.

Thus the prophecy of the seven churches pertains to the entire professed Christian church, in all its denominations and basic spiritual characters, as the Judgment of the Living is about to begin. Then in Revelation chapters four and five we are given a vision of that Judgment. Then in the prophecies of the seals and trumpets, we see what results on earth as the Judgment of the Living is going forth in Heaven.

This is the only interpretation that is exegetically sound, going by what the text itself actually says. Any other interpretation requires reading into the text something that is not there, and is in fact contradicted by the text.

[Guest]

Ron this class of people that "brace themselves" against any real present truth can see a measure of truth in what you are saying, but their favorite evangelist has forewarned them to "stay with the ship" come hell or HIGH WATER, so most will remain content with this mindset until they will have "no power to act" [sOP] even though they know they should. Even while the LOUD CRY is going on it will be man controling man as usual.

"There is to be in the [seventh-day Adventist] churches a wonderful manifestation of the power of God, but it will not move upon those who have not humbled themselves before the Lord, and opened the door of the heart by confession and repentance. In the manifestation of that power which lightens the earth with the glory of God, they will see only something which in their blindness they think dangerous, something which will arouse their fears, and they will brace themselves to resist it. Because the Lord does not work according to their ideas and expectations they will oppose the work. "Why," they say, "should we not know the Spirit of God, when we have been in the work so many years?"--RH Extra, Dec. 23, 1890. {LDE 209.3}

"The third angel's message will not be comprehended, the light which will lighten the earth with its glory will be called a false light, by those who refuse to walk in its advancing glory.--RH May 27, 1890. {LDE 210.1}

[Ron Lambert]

Ed, as I see it (based on the way the Bible defines all the symbols involved) the fourth trumpet is a prophecy of the Shaking in the SDA church. I find comfort in the fact that only one-third appear to resist the truth so that ultimately their light goes out in darkness. This implies that a two-thirds majority will accept the truth, and will be prepared by the Shaking to give the three final warning messages to the world (crying "woe" three times is the same as the three angels' messages of Revelation 14). Do not underestimate the ability of the Holy Spirit to take the reins into His own hands, and bring conviction, repentance, and continuing conversion to the majority He has called to be a part of the Advent Movement.

[Guest]

Ron allow me to explain the 4th trumpet and plague as the bible & SOP defines them ALL in the future. Before allowing scripture to explain, there is a signal that that is supernatural that the devil cannot counterfeit. God's remnant people will need this signal to encourage them, of how close they are to the very end. "...and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise." Revelation 8:12. Twelve hours in a day when there is normal daylight, divided by three, is four hours of total darkness, then four hours of total darkness at night, where not a star or moon can be seen. Total darkness all over the world will anger those suffering the effects of the previous Trumpets/Plagues, the ones having the mark of the beast both in their hand & forehead. When daylight returns, the organized wicked get their heads together to put some "hurt" (Rev. 9:4) on the group who has disturbed their peace in the past. It is the false shepherds in Adventism they come after. God's true people at this point are safe and secure, even "calm and composed". Early Writings 283. The Bible says the same, "...they are at rest, that dwell safely (margin-confidently) all of them..." Ezekiel 38:11. They are under the protection of Psalms 91, "A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee". Psalms 91:7-11. Yes, the false shepherds are dealt with during the 5th trumpet and plague by an organized group that can get legislation passed through in a hurry in this new world order to get laws signed and on the books. The law says that they are not allowed to 'kill them,' "but they should be tormented five months." Revelation 9:5. "The people turned upon their ministers with bitter hate and reproached them, saying, "You have not warned us. You told us that all the world was to be converted, and cried, peace, peace, to quiet every fear that was raised. You have not told us of this hour; and those who warned us of it you declared to be fanatics and evil men, who would ruin us!' But I saw that the ministers did not escape the wrath of God. Their suffering was tenfold greater than that of their people." Early Writings 282.

Some may question the fact that the above quote is talking about Sunday keeping pastors. No, not when one puts all the pieces together. "Then I was shown a company who were howling in agony. On their garments was written in large characters, 'thou art weighed in the balance, and found wanting' the angel said, 'These are they who have once kept the Sabbath and have given it up' I heard them cry with a loud voice, 'We have believed in thy coming, and taught it with energy.'" Early Writings 37.

[Ron Lambert]

Ed, I believe that it is a violation of the First Commandment to use Ellen G. White to interpret Bible prophecy, or let her have the last word on the interpretation of anything in the Bible. When we interpret the Bible, we are to go by the Bible and nothing else. If we use any other source to determine what the Bible says, we are placing that source above the Word of God. We only consult with history when the Bible text tells us we should (as in Daniel 8:20-22).

Ellen G. White said this (I believe she said it to church leaders at a meeting of the General Conference):

Quote:

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Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don't you never quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don't you give a rap any more what "Sister White said"-- "Sister White said this," and "Sister White said that," and "Sister White said the other thing." But say, "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel," and then you do just what the Lord God of Israel does, and what he says."

(

Spaulding and Magan Collection,

p. 167)

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This is a fascinating statement; Ellen G. White seemed so provoked that she used a double negative. (This was cleaned up grammatically when this statement was reprinted later in a few other places.)

If we truly believe that the prophetic ministry of Ellen G. White was genuine, then we should do what she says, and go by the Bible first of all and above all. Her ministry was merely to serve as a "lesser light" to lead back to the "greater light" of the Bible.

It is valuable, of course, to see what insights Ellen G. White may have had on Bible teachings. She was a mature, experienced Christian who spoke with Jesus and with angels. But our faith can only, exclusively, solely be based on the Word of God, and absolutely nothing else. Read again the chapter in Great Controversy, "The Scriptures a Safeguard."