Justification by Faith "unconditional" - the lie...

[Twilight]

We see more and more, a non biblical view of justification by faith creeping into your church.

The idea that you are justified and then there are no "conditions" to that justification.

"Once saved always saved" and its many subtle derivatives.

-------------------

So I thought we could consider this:

A simple overview of the "correct" justification by faith:

1. A man accepts Christ as his saviour.

2. A man receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a gift.

3. The man follows the leading of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and remains "justified".

That is the true biblical "righteousness by faith" as taught in the scriptures.

Your thoughts?

Mark :-)

[Gerr]

Is there any condition other than that one trusts God and lives trusting in God?

[Twilight]

God is a God of "condition"...

But there are plain revealings of this truth, here is one example:

Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

Joshua represents Gods people.

Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Satan stands to accuse, to deny Joshua access to heaven.

Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

God Justifies Joshua by Christ's gift of righteousness.

Zec 3:5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

God adopts Joshua into His own family.

Zec 3:6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,

Then the angel of the LORD makes an announcement.

Zec 3:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

If Joshua, now he has been justified, walks in Gods ways.

If Joshua keeps Gods charge.

If Joshua through Gods power, keeps the Law and follows Him.

Then and only then, will Joshua inherit the right to keep Gods courts in heaven.

And will have the right to walk amonst the angels.

Only those that have received the robe and THEN walked with God, get home.

[Twilight]

Second example:

In Roms 7:14 - 25 there is a follower of God.

Who has no power over sin.

But then in Rom 8, he receives the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

He now has abundant power to live a Holy life.

If he has the robe of righteousness and follows the leading of the Spirit, he is no longer under condemnation.

Rom 8:1 ¶ [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In fact, he is only a "son of God", if he has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and follows the leading of the Holy Spirit:

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

So it is indeed conditional.

If we take Christs robes and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and then do not follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, we will be lost.

[Gerr]

"By faith Abraham..."

"By faith Joshua..."

"By faith Enoch....And Enoch walked with God."

Living by faith = walking with God.

[Guest]

Excellent topic Mark.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

[Robert]

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

He now has abundant power to live a Holy life.

Your theology is way off here....Once you are off everything else follows... i.e., you compound your errors..

Romans 8:2 isn't speaking of the believer...it is speaking of the truth as it is "in Christ". How so?

1] Are you free of "the law of sin" or do you still have sin dwelling in you, i.e., your sin nature?

2] Are you free from death or are you dying as a result of the fall?

If you are not free of the sin nature and death then Romans 8:2 isn't speaking of you the individual. Time to rethink your theology.

Rob

[Robert]

The idea that you are justified and then there are no "conditions" to that justification.

You've misunderstood....

Christ justified the whole human race in His doing and dying. He did this 2000 years ago. That work is complete. You can't add to it. Christ unconditionally saved humanity....

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Here' another:

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions [sinners living for the flesh], made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus....

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

He now has abundant power to live a Holy life.

Your theology is way off here....Once you are off everything else follows... i.e., you compound your errors..

Romans 8:2 isn't speaking of the believer...it is speaking of the truth as it is "in Christ". How so?

1] Are you free of "the law of sin" or do you still have sin dwelling in you, i.e., your sin nature?

2] Are you free from death or are you dying as a result of the fall?

If you are not free of the sin nature and death then Romans 8:2 isn't speaking of you the individual. Time to rethink your theology.

Rob

If I follow Romans through logically, it is the only conclusion one can come to.

Those that are led by the Spirit, they are the sons of God.

Those that are led by flesh, they are not the sons of God.

It is not my theology, it is Paul's...

And I place Paul above Jack Sequira every day of the week...

[Robert]

You failed to answer my questions. Why?

1] Are you free of "the law of sin" or do you still have sin dwelling in you, i.e., your sin nature?

2] Are you free from death or are you dying as a result of the fall?

[Guest]

Your theology is way off here....Once you are off everything else follows... i.e., you compound your errors..

I agree. You compounded your way right out of the church didn't you?

[Robert]

Those that are led by the Spirit, they are the sons of God. Those that are led by flesh, they are not the sons of God. It is not my theology, it is Paul's...

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

Rahab was a harlot. However, she was led by the Spirit in that she helped the spies....She stood justified....Apparently she wasn't led at that time to stop selling her body to men for sex....Yet she was saved.

Better be careful what you consider "walking in the spirit"

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Your theology is way off here....Once you are off everything else follows... i.e., you compound your errors..

I agree. You compounded your way right out of the church didn't you?

Why get sidetracked? Go to Romans 8:1-3.....

[Robert]

It is not my theology, it is Paul's...

Now let's take the other version of Romans 8:1,2 into consideration.

1 There is therefore [Paul is making his conclusion of the man of Romans 7] now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

That highlighted last addition is a contradiction for two reasons:

a] The man of Romans 7 is not walking according to the Spirit. He is trying to defeat the sin nature using his will power and so he ends up doing what the sin nature desires. That would mean that there is condemnation....That's the first contradiction.

b] If there's only "no condemnation" for those "walking in the Spirit" then Romans 8 verse 2 becomes meaningless. My life "in Christ" - i.e., His justification of me - doesn't matter. I must keep the law through the Spirit. That's the 2nd contradiction - - i.e., it makes void Romans 8:2,3

You see what happens when we add that phrase, "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit"?

1] We condemn the struggling believer.

2] We make "walking in the Spirit" the means instead of the result.

[Twilight]

You failed to answer my questions. Why?

1] Are you free of "the law of sin" or do you still have sin dwelling in you, i.e., your sin nature?

2] Are you free from death or are you dying as a result of the fall?

1. God has set me free from the law of sin and death.

Sin does not own me any more.

If I sin now it is because I "choose" to, not because "sin chooses" for me.

2. Being set free from sins control, I have also been set free from its penalty - death...

[Robert]

1. God has set me free from the law of sin and death

You are teaching the holy flesh doctrine....

[Robert]

If I sin now it is because I "choose" to, not because "sin chooses" for me.

Then you, according to your own views of Romans 7, are lost.

You see you just told me that sometimes you "choose...to sin". The man of Romans 7, who you insist is lost, doesn't want to sin...he doesn't "choose" sin:

Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

You see the man of Romans 7 delights in God's law according to the law written on his heart....So he wants to live a life of agape....He doesn't, like you, just willfully sin with his mind. No, his mind wants to do good....It is his nature that takes him under.

But since you are free of your nature then there's no reason you should ever sin. You have holy flesh....

[Robert]

1. God has set me free from the law of sin and death.

Now for the truth. Where has God set you free from the sin nature and death?

1] In your life

or

2] In Christ?

Let's see what the context states:

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me [the man of Romans 7] free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Answer: 2

[Robert]

To stay within the context of your subject, I'll answer your question.

1] All men...the whole human race...was justified unto life in the holy history of Christ.

2] Since God doesn't force, you must accept this truth either through direct or indirect revelation.

3] When you do you have received what Christ did 2000 years ago.

What Christ has done is perfect....You can't add to it, but you must receive it to make it yours personally.

If I cook a meal for you while you sit in the living room you have not contributed one iota to what I've done. However, you can refuse to enjoy the meal.

Christ did it all...no men can ever blame God for being lost. He will have to blame himself because he said no to God's complete and perfect gift.

Rob

[Twilight]

You have holy flesh....

No Robert.

I have the Holy Spirit.

But if I choose to sin and do not repent, I will be lost...

As the bible states:

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

But your theology my friend, teaches that you should not consider the above verse, (unless I have misunderstood you).

I place it in the broad bracket of doctrines that form:

"Lake of Fire Theology"

[Robert]

To stay within the context of your subject, I'll answer your question.

1] All men...the whole human race...was justified unto life in the holy history of Christ.

2] Since God doesn't force, you must accept this truth either through direct or indirect revelation.

Can I prove this?

Yes:

Romans 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Note, you must receive what Christ has already done!

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Christ has justified all men....You live because of Christ....You owe your life to God because He did not abandon you...He abandoned Christ (hence, the 2nd death).

If you take this life you have and reject Him...you will die the 2nd death.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

To stay within the context of your subject, I'll answer your question.

1] All men...the whole human race...was justified unto life in the holy history of Christ.

2] Since God doesn't force, you must accept this truth either through direct or indirect revelation.

Can I prove this?

Yes:

Romans 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Note, you must receive what Christ has already done!

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Christ has justified all men....You live because of Christ....You owe your life to God because He did not abandon you...He abandoned Christ (hence, the 2nd death).

If you take this life you have and reject Him...you will die the 2nd death.

Seems to me that the Robe of Righteousness for you Robert, is something to look at, something to wear, but something with no actual power.

Not only do you need to receive the robe, you have to wear it as well Robert, trusting that it will empower you to do good.

It does no good hung on the back of the bedroom door...

[Robert]

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live [future tense - refers to when we are changed], even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die [he will never die the 2nd death]. Do you believe this?"

[Robert]

Seems to me that the Robe of Righteousness for you Robert, is something to look at, something to wear, but something with no actual power.

Is that why you aren't fully living Christ's life?

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

[Twilight]

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live [future tense - refers to the when we are changed], even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die [he will never die the 2nd death]. Do you believe this?"

I do Robert, do you?

Do you believe God gives you the power to overcome through Christ?

Do you believe that the neglect of this gift is a neglect of Christ?

That if you really believe in Christ, you will believe in His promise to make you an overcomer?

Seems to me Robert, you do not really believe in Christ, other than in a totally legalistic sense.

A legalistic view that looks at what Christ did for you to give you access to heaven, but a total denial of what Christ did for you, so that you could live in heaven...