Justification by Faith "unconditional" - the lie...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Seems to me that the Robe of Righteousness for you Robert, is something to look at, something to wear, but something with no actual power.

Is that why you aren't fully living Christ's life?

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

How do you know what I am living Robert?

[Robert]

I have the Holy Spirit.

But the Holy Spirit can't do anything without you giving Him permission to take your will and work through it....And you never do this to be saved....You do it to attract others to Christ so they can see Christ in you the hope of glory. You must have the assurance of salvation.....Then, and only then, can you truly be free to live for Christ.

[Robert]

How do you know what I am living Robert?

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. [EGW]

You, selfish, yet growing....

Christ, "...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

Yes, I believe the last generation of Christian, during the time of Jacob's trouble, will fully grow up into Christ. None of us are there....BTW, this doesn't contribute to our salvation....It witnesses Christ.

Of that group it is said, “Their earthliness (the principle of the world...our bent to self) must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” [4SP 438]

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I have the Holy Spirit.

But the Holy Spirit can't do anything without you giving Him permission to take your will and work through it....And you never do this to be saved....You do it to attract others to Christ so they can see Christ in you the hope of glory. You must have the assurance of salvation.....Then, and only then, can you truly be free to live for Christ.

The assurance of salvation is not the "assurance to sin" Robert...

The assurance of salvation is based on me abiding in Christ and Him in me.

Outside of that I have no assurance.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

How do you know what I am living Robert?

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. [EGW]

I agree with this totally Robert, nothing I have said contradicts this.

The difference between us however my friend, is that I do not reject the bits she says that do not agree with my viewpoint.

As you have done and I presume still do.

You cannot use EGW as authority for your arguments as you do not respect her yourself as an authority...

[Robert]

The assurance of salvation is not the "assurance to sin" Robert...

The believer hates sin in his mind....He delights in God's agape, but he nevertheless is failing....So we must look not to our performance, but to Christ's doing and dying....Otherwise you get off into legalism....

[Robert]

You cannot use EGW as authority for your arguments as you do not respect her yourself as an authority...

Who said I was using her as an authority? I agree with her here! And yes, I can use her....

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

You cannot use EGW as authority for your arguments as you do not respect her yourself as an authority...

Who said I was using her as an authority? I agree with her here! And yes, I can use her....

Like a "woman of the night" eh Robert?

When it suits one?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The assurance of salvation is not the "assurance to sin" Robert...

The believer hates sin in his mind....He delights in God's agape, but he nevertheless is failing....So we must look not to our performance, but to Christ's doing and dying....Otherwise you get off into legalism....

More "Lake of Fire" theology Robert?

Those that are led by the Spirit, they are the sons of God.

Not those led by sin and the flesh.

[Robert]

More "Lake of Fire" theology Robert?

Those that are led by the Spirit, they are the sons of God.

So you choose to ignore Romans 8:2,3....Suit yourself

[Robert]

Like a "woman of the night" eh Robert?

When it suits one?

That was low....Your nature is apparently alive and well....

[Just*]

1] Are you free of "the law of sin" or do you still have sin dwelling in you, i.e., your sin nature?

"the law of sin" -«But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.» Rom 7:23

«If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.» Rom 7:16-17

------------------------------------

«For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.» Rom 8:2

«Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.» Rom 6:6

«But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.» Rom 6:17

«For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.» Rom 6:20

«Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.» Rom 6:12-13

«[This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.» Gal 5:16-17

«For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.» Rom 8:13

[Just*]

b] If there's only "no condemnation" for those "walking in the Spirit" then Romans 8 verse 2 becomes meaningless. My life "in Christ" - i.e., His justification of me - doesn't matter. I must keep the law through the Spirit. That's the 2nd contradiction - - i.e., it makes void Romans 8:2,3

You see what happens when we add that phrase, "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit"?

1] We condemn the struggling believer.

2] We make "walking in the Spirit" the means instead of the result.

«To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.» 2 Cor 5:19

«For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.» 2 Cor 5:14-15

«Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?» Rom 6:16

«For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,(gospel) there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?» Heb 10:26-29

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Like a "woman of the night" eh Robert?

When it suits one?

That was low....Your nature is apparently alive and well....

[Just*]

You see you just told me that sometimes you "choose...to sin". The man of Romans 7, who you insist is lost, doesn't want to sin...he doesn't "choose" sin:

«...and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.» Rom 7:23

«Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.» Rom 8:12

«For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.» Rom 6:14

«Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.» Rom 6:12

[Just*]

1] All men...the whole human race...was justified unto life in the holy history of Christ.

2] Since God doesn't force, you must accept this truth either through direct or indirect revelation.

3] When you do you have received what Christ did 2000 years ago.

What Christ has done is perfect....You can't add to it, but you must receive it to make it yours personally.

If I cook a meal for you while you sit in the living room you have not contributed one iota to what I've done. However, you can refuse to enjoy the meal.

Christ did it all...no men can ever blame God for being lost. He will have to blame himself because he said no to God's complete and perfect gift.

Rob

Amen!

[Robert]

Not low Robert.

[Gerr]

Very good, Just.

While the believer is still in the "body of sin" or "body of death" where the "law of sin" is still present, Paul says, "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies to make you obey their passions....Do not present your members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness..." because the promise is, "sin will have no dominion (to reign as king) over you..."

As Jesus said, "NO MAN can serve two masters." As Paul says, "you are slaves of the one whom you obey....either of sin which leads to death, or of obedience which leads to righteousness."

There is a wide gulf between a believer who is being led by the Spirit to obey and yet fall short, and the one who profess to believe but is still living and obeying the dictates of the "flesh". The former is under grace, the latter is still under the law. He has not died to law as yet, so is still captive and married to it. One cannot be married to two husbands without committing adultery. It is spiritual adultery to be married to Christ and sin at the same time, or to serve two masters.

[skyblue888]

True. One is still married to the flesh (being a slave to its every desire) while professing to be married to Christ who alone can subdue the flesh or bring it into subjection.

[Robert]

As Paul says, "you are slaves of the one whom you obey....either of sin which leads to death, or of obedience which leads to righteousness."

But Paul wasn't talking of law obedience....

[Just*]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

As Paul says, "you are slaves of the one whom you obey....either of sin which leads to death, or of obedience which leads to righteousness."

But Paul wasn't talking of law obedience....

«that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.» Rom 7:6

«because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.» Rom 5:5

«Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.» Rom 13:10

«For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.» Rom 8:14-15

«those things which Christ hath not wrought by me» Rom 15:18

«I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.» Rom 12:1-2

«Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.» Rom 6:16-17

«Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.» Rom 6:6

«Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.» Rom 6:11

«How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?» Rom 6:2

«Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:» Rom 5:1

«[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus» Rom 8:1

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Rom 6:16-17 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him'], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Rom 6:6 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Just as our fallen humanity died "in Christ" 2000 years ago, we by faith are to reckon (consider) ourselves dead to sin. Nothing is said about obeying the law.

Paul says it best here:

Gal 2:11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12 Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group [the Judaizers]. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. 14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? 15 "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. 17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ [i.e., we seek to be justified by our works of the law], it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed [i.e., if I (Paul) return to my "works of the law"], I prove that I am a lawbreaker [because no one under law is righteous]. 19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

So, our job (if you will) is not to try to obey the law, but to consider ourselves "dead to sin". In other words just as we died in Christ 2000 years ago (and hence died to sin), we our to consider our "old life" dead. In other words we allow Christ, through the Spirit, to have our natures.

While this should be the goal of every believer, all are still falling short of God's agape because we live and participate in a world dominated by the love of self. So our experience is a combination of the man of Romans 7 & 8.

The last generation on earth will experience the full extent of Romans 8. Ellen White had them in mind when she said, “Their earthliness must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” [4SP 438]

[pnattmbtc]

The difference between us however my friend, is that I do not reject the bits she says that do not agree with my viewpoint.

I don't think this is true. I would say the difference is that you don't *intentionally* do so. That is, you accept EGW as a prophetess, so you don't *intentionally* reject things she writes which do not agree with your viewpoint. But it's a bit arogant, or naive, to think that our viewpoint corresponds 100% with truth, yet there are many who seem to hold this position.

Humility does us well in terms of our ability to understand truth.

[pnattmbtc]

No, it's picking out those thing that are in harmony with the Bible and throwing out those things that aren't.

What makes you think you are qualified to do this?

Regarding that EGW never claimed infallability, she wrote no one is infallible except God. You'd have to reject all of Scripture using this logic, other than those things written specifically by God, such as the 10 commandments.

[Just*]

Just as our fallen humanity died "in Christ" 2000 years ago, we by faith are to reckon (consider) ourselves dead to sin.