Justification by Faith "unconditional" - the lie...

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

. A man with the Holy Spirit .... is expected to keep the Law.

This is damnable heresy. That's back to salvation by works.....

"For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:13 ESV.

"Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?" Rom 6:16 ESV.

[Guest]

Paul can guarantee you that if you live according to the flesh, "you will die."

That's right Paul does guarantee that

Rom 8:13 For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live.

[Twilight]

Quote:

From the above link:

"Every time we fall or sin, we become unjustified. This misunderstanding is based on the belief that our justification is based on our obedience, an idea that has no support in the Bible." <- JS.

The bible:

Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

On this point, I think JS is correct. We do not become unjustified every time we sin and justified every time we repent. That's yo-yo salvation, as Robert likes to say. When we accept Christ as our personal Savior, our names are written in the book of life. Our status of whether we are finally counted with the righteous or lost does not occur until our cases come up in the judgment to see whether we have maintained that saved relationship or not.

I agree that if we sin, the Holy Spirit will call us to repentance, once we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

But that is a corrective action, not the norm.

If we do not respond we will be lost.

But do you have a biblical example of your argument.

I present the case, with the above example in Ezekiel, that if a man sins and does not take the opportunity to repent, he has lost his justification.

If you see this differently, please show your argument from scripture. :-)

[Gerr]

Quote:

But do you have a biblical example of your argument.

None except this - "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment," Heb 9:27.

But consider the judgment and think it through. When a sinner believes, he/she is justified and his/her name is written in the book of life. Sins are recorded and so is the repentance or lack thereof. When does a person come up for judgment? I don't think a person comes up for judgment every time he/she sins. When your case comes up, it's a one time event. Otherwise Jesus would be very busy writing names, erasing names, ad infinitum!

[Robert]

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

[Robert]

"For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:13 ESV.

"For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live."

Paul states the same in Gal 5:13 For you were called to freedom [freedom from under law], brethren ; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh ; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

To live for the flesh is to practice the things of the flesh. It means that the mind and nature are in harmony and hence you will not inherit heaven. Why? You are unconverted.

The above is not speaking of perfection (which the law demands). Perfection is simply living Christ's life, and keep in mind that "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." Anything short of that is sin....

[Robert]

If you see this differently, please show your argument from scripture. :-)

The disciples before the cross....They were all striving to be # 1....some would fight at the drop of a hat....they were self-centered, egotistical....They had many faults, yet the remained justified. After the death of Christ is when they began to grow....

[ir1844]

Im new here I go by the name of ir1844 and I love theology but anyway just to add to the false teaching of Justification if we look at the book of Isaiah chapter 2:5-9 the teaching of the east back then false teaching was creeping in Isreal and now we see the same today . with emerging and new age teachings like from rick warren just to mention a few we have to stick together and study thy word daily .

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Here are other statements:

"...The terms of salvation for every son and daughter of Adam are here outlined. It is plainly stated that the condition of gaining eternal life is obedience to the commandments of God".

"To obey the commandments of God is the only way to obtain His favor."

"He [man] must be reconciled to God through obedience to His law."

The truth is as simple as this Robert:

1. A man without the Holy Spirit cannot keep the Law.

2. A man with the Holy Spirit can and is expected to keep the Law.

Except the man with the Holy Spirit isn't focusing on the law, but on Christ. What is your obsession with the law anyways? Is it that hard to understand that once you accept Christ, you will over time naturally follow the law?

The law simply reveals our sickness, once we realize that we are sick, we seek the Physician. It is that simple.

[Just*]

[

If you see this differently, please show your argument from scripture. :-)

«I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation. Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me. For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me.» Ps 40:10-12

«And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.» Ps 143:2

«If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? But [there is] forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.» Ps 130:3-4

«Who can understand [his] errors? cleanse thou me from secret [faults]. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous [sins]; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.» Ps 19:12-14

«Blessed [is he whose] transgression [is] forgiven, [whose] sin [is] covered. Blessed [is] the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit [there is] no guile.» Ps 32:1-2

«He only [is] my rock and my salvation: [he is] my defence; I shall not be moved. In God [is] my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, [and] my refuge, [is] in God. Trust in him at all times; [ye] people, pour out your heart before him: God [is] a refuge for us. Selah. Surely men of low degree [are] vanity, [and] men of high degree [are] a lie: to be laid in the balance, they [are] altogether [lighter] than vanity.» Ps 62:6-9

[Twilight]

Quote:

But do you have a biblical example of your argument.

None except this - "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment," Heb 9:27.

But consider the judgment and think it through. When a sinner believes, he/she is justified and his/her name is written in the book of life. Sins are recorded and so is the repentance or lack thereof. When does a person come up for judgment? I don't think a person comes up for judgment every time he/she sins. When your case comes up, it's a one time event. Otherwise Jesus would be very busy writing names, erasing names, ad infinitum!

I have started a specific thread for this side topic here Gerry.

I would be pleased if you could join me on it and discuss this point. :-

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/387947.html#Post387947

[Twilight]

Im new here I go by the name of ir1844 and I love theology but anyway just to add to the false teaching of Justification if we look at the book of Isaiah chapter 2:5-9 the teaching of the east back then false teaching was creeping in Isreal and now we see the same today . with emerging and new age teachings like from rick warren just to mention a few we have to stick together and study thy word daily .

Welcome :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The truth is as simple as this Robert:

1. A man without the Holy Spirit cannot keep the Law.

2. A man with the Holy Spirit can and is expected to keep the Law.

Except the man with the Holy Spirit isn't focusing on the law, but on Christ. What is your obsession with the law anyways? Is it that hard to understand that once you accept Christ, you will over time naturally follow the law?

The law simply reveals our sickness, once we realize that we are sick, we seek the Physician. It is that simple.

It is God who is obsessed with His Law, not I.

Why do you not ask Him that question?

[Gerr]

Quote:

Yes, but the law written on the mind is not performance, in and of itself. See the man of Romans 7 who has God's law written in his heart.

Are you saying that when God writes His laws in the heart that He has no intention for man to obey it? If not, what's the point?

Quote:

The law written on the heart is conversion...it's a new way of thinking, but as we learned in Romans 7 the law of my mind (my desires towards agape) are no match for "the law of sin". It takes "the law of the Spirit" to progress....

Still convinced that the man who is "carnal", "of the flesh, sold under sin" is a converted man, eh? The one who can't do right? Who desires to do what is right but KEEPS ON DOING what is evil? And has no power to carry out his desire to do right? That man who calls himself "wretched" and a slave to sin? Who plainly states is in need of deliverance? Is that the picture of a man who has been redeemed, justified, sanctified, and set free from sin looks like? God forbid!!! Go back to Rom 6 & 8 to see the picture of a converted person indwelt by the Holy Spirit is like.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Under the new covenant, the conditions by which eternal life may be gained are the same as under the old. The conditions are, and ever have been, based on perfect obedience. ....In the new and better covenant, Christ has fulfilled the law for the transgressors of law, if they receive Him by faith as a personal Saviour. .

Yes, the same, expect in the OC had to perform, but under the NC Christ did the doing & the dying.

So then, what you are saying is that because Christ fulfilled the requirements of the law & that since are "in Him", you don't have to obey? That's a fatal deception!

To whom are the righteous requirements of the law that Christ achieved accounted to?

3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.

When one is walking in the Spirit, this is what happens: "16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,

20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,

21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." Gal 5.

And this is what the believer who is "in Christ" does: " By this we may know that we are in him:

6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."

[Lutz13]

It is God who is obsessed with His Law, not I.

Why do you not ask Him that question?

I wouldn't say God is obsessed with the law. It is simply a template from which He created life. It is no different than any other law that governs our universe. Laws of gravity, laws of Physics, laws of nature...The law of love. Breaking them has consequence. Breaking the laws of love equals death, but through Gods grace, He has held back the consequence until we are fully persuaded one way or the other.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

It is God who is obsessed with His Law, not I.

Why do you not ask Him that question?

I wouldn't say God is obsessed with the law. It is simply a template from which He created life. It is no different than any other law that governs our universe. Laws of gravity, laws of Physics, laws of nature...The law of love. Breaking them has consequence. Breaking the laws of love equals death, but through Gods grace, He has held back the consequence until we are fully persuaded one way or the other.

He seems quite particular about it in my bible. :-)

[Robert]

Are you saying that when God writes His laws in the heart that He has no intention for man to obey it? If not, what's the point?

[Lutz13]

He seems quite particular about it in my bible. :-)

In the sense that He wants us to know what sin is, and what it is doing to His creation. He just wants our trust so He can restore us. It is that simple.

[Gerr]

Welcome, Ir1844!

[Gerr]

Quote:

Yes, but the law written on the mind is not performance, in and of itself. See the man of Romans 7 who has God's law written in his heart.

What verse is that in where it says that the law is written in his heart? What I find is: 1) He agrees with the law that it is good but is unable to obey it, 7:16,18 2) Inwardly delights in the law but is still a captive/prisoner of sin, 7:22,23.

Quote:

The law written on the heart is conversion...

Agreed. But the man of Ro 7 is not converted; he is just under conviction. Mental assent, not conversion.

Quote:

it's a new way of thinking,

Not only a new way of thinking, but A NEW WAY OF WALKING/LIVING!!! "We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." Rom 6:4 ESV "We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin." 6:6

Quote:

but as we learned in Romans 7 the law of my mind (my desires towards agape) are no match for "the law of sin". It takes "the law of the Spirit" to progress....

How much progress? Just a little?

"Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world." 1 Jn 4:4 ESV

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:13 ESV

Do you believe these?

[Gerr]

So then, because our obedience falls short and doesn't "measure up", we give up obeying?

[Gerr]

Quote:

You! Can you say that you are fully living the self-emptying life of Christ...a life where "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."?

Hmmmm. Lumping believers who are striving to walk in His steps with those who are living for the flesh, eh?

Quote:

If not your mindset must grow more....That's why EGW said, "There was not one trace of selfishness in the life of Christ. All who are laborers together with God will have the same spirit [mindset] as their Master had. They will be continually growing away from selfishness, and renouncing self-indulgence, even in things that had once appeared innocent to them. . . [LHU 325]

"Continually growing away from selfishness, and renouncing self-indulgence," while walking in darkness? Impossible!

[Robert]

So then, because our obedience falls short and doesn't "measure up", we give up obeying?

Again, you aren't obeying....Obeying the law is living Christ's life.

[Robert]

Lumping believers who are striving to walk in His steps with those who are living for the flesh, eh?

Sin is sin...under law