Justification by Faith "unconditional" - the lie...

[Robert]

You evidently think Ellen White is teaching justification by works of law. However, she isn't.

1] Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government.

I don't see anything about Christ...just law, law, law.

2] He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

Clearly these are the terms of the Old Covenant.

3] “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.”

Everyone has sinned, therefore all will die. Except for Christ's grace everyone's first death would be their second death. Again, nothing about grace...it's law, law, law!

4] God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

Nothing about forgiveness...nothing about God's love towards sinner. It's all about law, law, law.

Well, Paul disagrees....

[Robert]

Here are other statements:

"...The terms of salvation for every son and daughter of Adam are here outlined. It is plainly stated that the condition of gaining eternal life is obedience to the commandments of God".

"To obey the commandments of God is the only way to obtain His favor."

"He [man] must be reconciled to God through obedience to His law."

[Just*]

JS presents a perversion of Paul's...if your argument that you have received from him are anything to go by...

He does not teach it

[Gerr]

And what are the terms of the new covenant, Robert?

Is it, you can live in sin and be saved?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

It is simple Robert.

When someone accepts Christ and receives the gift of the Holy Spirit, they are led into obedience to all of Gods law.

So you do not see EGW as contradicting Paul?

Again, notice the phrase in the following:

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

Ellen is clearly presenting salvation by law! In other words,

1] "obey and live" (or as she puts it, "this do, and thou shalt live")

or

2] “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

Let's see if Paul agrees with salvation by law:

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law [salvation by law] are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just by faith shall live." 12 Yet the law is not of faith, "the man who does them shall by them live."

He does not agree. In fact he says that if you attempt salvation by law you are cursed because the law requires not only your outward actions to be correct, but the motive behind every act. If there's any "bent-to-self" you've had it.

Here's the thing, Paul uses that expression "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them" to show the impossibility of gaining heaven by works.

Ellen takes that same phrase and presents salvation by works.

Here EGW and Paul are not in harmony. She is teaching error if you take it as it reads.

[Twilight]

What you evidently fail to see is that when she speaks of obeying God and His law, she is talking about the kind of experience that Paul describes in Romans 8: 1-5. In other words, she's talking about people who are having the law written on their heart and mind by the Holy Spirit, and who are subject to the law of God (Romans 8: 7). In the passages of Paul's writings that you quote, he is talking about people who are attempting to earn merit or salvation through their obedience to law.

She is talking about Romans 8 whereas Paul is talking about the experience of the man of Romans 7. The man of Romans 8 is living under the New Covenant; the man of chapter 7 under the Old Covenant. Perhaps you don't see that people living in the Spirit obey God's law. That's the main message of Romans 6 and 8.

You evidently think Ellen White is teaching justification by works of law. However, she isn't.

What is the only way in which anyone can render perfect obedience to the law of God?

I pray you read this carefully Robert.

I fear however that you have imbibed "new theology" to such an extent that you are blind to the simple truths presented above.

I also pray your eyes be opened so that you can see it is your understanding of justification by faith that is in error.

Not EGW's.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: John317

What you evidently fail to see is that when she speaks of obeying God and His law, she is talking about the kind of experience that Paul describes in Romans 8: 1-5.

No she is not! Not even close....There's no grace (as seen in Rom 8:1-3)...There is only "obey and live" and "disobey and die"...both OC demands.

Why do you and others totally ignore the context? Why? Because in your mind EGW is infallible. In your mind if she makes mistakes you have to throw all her writings out the door. It's all or nothing....

Robert, if one had no other means than the bible to search out these truths, the conclusion would be the same.

I have studied Romans without glancing at the SOP and came to the exact same conclusions.

No sir, it is you that is in error here, but you will not listen.

[Twilight]

Here are other statements:

"...The terms of salvation for every son and daughter of Adam are here outlined. It is plainly stated that the condition of gaining eternal life is obedience to the commandments of God".

"To obey the commandments of God is the only way to obtain His favor."

"He [man] must be reconciled to God through obedience to His law."

The truth is as simple as this Robert:

1. A man without the Holy Spirit cannot keep the Law.

2. A man with the Holy Spirit can and is expected to keep the Law.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

JS presents a perversion of Paul's...if your argument that you have received from him are anything to go by...

He does not teach it

From what Robert has quoted, JS's teachings are very very dangerous in my mind.

All justification without sanctification from what I can gather.

[Gerr]

All justification without sanctification from what I can gather.

Trying to make a sandwich with just one slice of bread. I've tried to tell him this before.

[Gerr]

The issue is EGW uses the exact same phrase as Paul does...only she contradicts Paul. You guys keep evading this....Why?

A covenant is agreement between at least two parties.

Let me ask you again - what are the terms of the new covenant?

When you accept God's covenant, what are you agreeing to do?

[Just*]

From what Robert has quoted, JS's teachings are very very dangerous in my mind.

All justification without sanctification from what I can gather.

http://www.jacksequeira.org/beyond11.htm

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The issue is EGW uses the exact same phrase as Paul does...only she contradicts Paul. You guys keep evading this....Why?

A covenant is agreement between at least two parties.

Let me ask you again - what are the terms of the new covenant?

When you accept God's covenant, what are you agreeing to do?

It is an excellent question. What are the terms? He cannot honestly answer that. Because in his mind the answer is: "Nothing" (keep right on sinning, and you will be saved in your sins, anyway)

In their eagerness to assure themselves of salvation without any real change of lifestyle, they haven't even thought of it that way.

[Guest]

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom 8:13 For if you go in the way of the flesh, death will come on you; but if by the Spirit you put to death the works of the body, you will have life. (BBE)

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

[Just*]

A covenant is agreement between at least two parties.

Let me ask you again - what are the terms of the new covenant?

When you accept God's covenant, what are you agreeing to do?

«Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.» Rom 11:35-36

«for without me ye can do nothing.» Jn 15:5

"God promises us everything that we need, and more than we can ask or think, as a gift. We give Him ourselves, that is, nothing, and He gives us Himself, that is, everything. That which makes all the trouble is that even when men are willing to recognize the Lord at all, they want to make bargains with Him. They want it to be a "mutual" affair--a transaction in which they will be considered as on a par with God. But whoever deals with God must deal with Him on His own terms, that is, on a basis of fact--that we have nothing and are nothing, and He has everything and is everything, and gives everything."

The Glad Tidings

E.J. Waggoner

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

From what Robert has quoted, JS's teachings are very very dangerous in my mind.

All justification without sanctification from what I can gather.

http://www.jacksequeira.org/beyond11.htm

From the above link:

"Every time we fall or sin, we become unjustified. This misunderstanding is based on the belief that our justification is based on our obedience, an idea that has no support in the Bible." <- JS.

The bible:

Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

[Gerr]

Quote:

"God promises us everything that we need, and more than we can ask or think, as a gift. We give Him ourselves, that is, nothing, and He gives us Himself, that is, everything. That which makes all the trouble is that even when men are willing to recognize the Lord at all, they want to make bargains with Him. They want it to be a "mutual" affair--a transaction in which they will be considered as on a par with God. But whoever deals with God must deal with Him on His own terms, that is, on a basis of fact--that we have nothing and are nothing, and He has everything and is everything, and gives everything."

The Glad Tidings

E.J. Waggoner

Are you saying we have no part to play and not agreeing to do anything?

[Gerr]

Quote:

From the above link:

"Every time we fall or sin, we become unjustified. This misunderstanding is based on the belief that our justification is based on our obedience, an idea that has no support in the Bible." <- JS.

The bible:

Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

On this point, I think JS is correct. We do not become unjustified every time we sin and justified every time we repent. That's yo-yo salvation, as Robert likes to say. When we accept Christ as our personal Savior, our names are written in the book of life. Our status of whether we are finally counted with the righteous or lost does not occur until our cases come up in the judgment to see whether we have maintained that saved relationship or not.

[Just*]

From the above link:

"Every time we fall or sin, we become unjustified. This misunderstanding is based on the belief that our justification is based on our obedience, an idea that has no support in the Bible." <- JS.

The bible:

Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Said the beloved John, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1...

The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan's delusions have lost their power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you.

No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness"

SC65

«Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.» Rom 4:4

«And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.» Rom 11:6

«Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:» Rom 3:24

«Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.» Rom 3:28

«But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.» Rom 4:5

[Robert]

Twilight,

Unless you give up on the idea that your law keeping will somehow add to your salvation that is "in Christ" I can guarantee you that you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. You must repent of this nonsense.

Rob

[Robert]

Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

There's much OC language in the OT. I guess you can't see this....

[Robert]

Let me ask you again - what are the terms of the new covenant?

Under the NC I have a humanity "in Christ" that has answered all the demands of God's law. By faith I stand positively righteous in Him. While I remain "in Him" by faith I begin to reflect that love, but all along that growth I am falling short of God's selfless, agape love. I can never claim that I have arrived. Who said that last part? EGW.

[Robert]

. A man with the Holy Spirit .... is expected to keep the Law.

This is damnable heresy. That's back to salvation by works.....

[Just*]

Are you saying we have no part to play and not agreeing to do anything?

«And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.» Lk 1:38

«Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.» Heb 13:20-21

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Let me ask you again - what are the terms of the new covenant?

Under the NC I have a humanity "in Christ" that has answered all the demands of God's law. By faith I stand positively righteous in Him. While I remain "in Him" by faith I begin to reflect that love, but all along that growth I am falling short of God's selfless, agape love. I can never claim that I have arrived. Who said that last part? EGW.

" For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.” In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." Heb 8:8-13 ESV.

Those are the terms of the new covenant which you are so careful to avoid.

Conditions of Salvation the Same

Under the new covenant, the conditions by which eternal life may be gained are the same as under the old. The conditions are, and ever have been, based on perfect obedience. Under the old covenant, there were many offenses of a daring, presumptuous character, for which there was no atonement specified by law. In the new and better covenant, Christ has fulfilled the law for the transgressors of law, if they receive Him by faith as a personal Saviour. "As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God" (John 1:12). Mercy and forgiveness are the reward of all who come to Christ trusting in His merits to take away their sins. We are cleansed from sin by the blood of Christ Jesus our Saviour. Letter 216, 1906, p. 2. (To "My Dear Brother in Christ Jesus," July 2, 1906.) {1MR 117.1}

"...By this we may know that we are in him:

whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected." 1 Jn 2:5,4.

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:4,13

Paul makes it clear to whom all the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled.

Paul can guarantee you that if you live according to the flesh, "you will die."