When we sin do we disconnect?

[Twilight]

I believe there's a gulf of difference between being conceived by the Spirit (Christ) and born filled with the Spirit (John the Baptist).

Interesting observation...

[Gerr]

Christ said, "I judge no man....He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 8, John 12)

Are we playing semantics here? John 5:22 "The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,"

Rom 2:16 "on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."

[Gerr]

Galatians 5... :-)

I seem to have missed the verse.

You know of course that crucified persons do not die instantly? That it may take several days? While we are to "reckon yourselves dead to sin and alive to God," the death of this flesh does not occur until we shed it.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Christ said, "I judge no man....He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 8, John 12)

Are we playing semantics here? John 5:22 "The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,"

Rom 2:16 "on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."

I would say God judges, and the universe examine or "judge" Gods judgements...

[Gerr]

That is the difficult question Gerry.

I do not think so.

Because Eve, without repentance would have been lost, in spite of Gods calling out for her...

As I see it, I see a difference between A & E after their initial downfall from our sinning after our first or subsequent sin after conversion. After their downfall, God came to the Garden and rendered judgment/verdict right then and there. God doesn't do that with us.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Galatians 5... :-)

I seem to have missed the verse.

You know of course that crucified persons do not die instantly? That it may take several days? While we are to "reckon yourselves dead to sin and alive to God," the death of this flesh does not occur until we shed it.

Just wetting your appetite Gerry...

Hear is the classic text, where we identify with our struggle:

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Then comes the description of the works of the flesh:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now begins the description of the work of the Spirit and His fruit:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Most of us then stop there.

But read on:

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

We that are Christs have by faith, crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

They have been put to death.

All of the flesh.

All of the lusts....

Past tense...

What do you think?

[Gerr]

I would say God judges, and the universe examine or "judge" Gods judgements...

I agree. Judge Ito (Simpson trial) issued the verdict, and was himself tried/judged by public opinion. Many thought he was awed or maybe even allowed himself to be bullied by that dream team of defense lawyers.

[Twilight]

This then has to be tied to Romans 6:6.

Where we accept we are crucified, we "know" this is a fact.

Then Romans 6:11

Where we bring that knowledge into our daily battle with temptation...

Where we "reckon ourselves dead", based on what Christ has done.

What did He do?

He crucified our old man.

If we believe this and continue to believe it in the storms of temptation.

It is reality...

Question is, do we have the faith to believe it...

[Gerr]

I knew that's the verse you must have been thinking of. That's why I said that crucified persons do not die instantly or necessarily the same day. They may live on for days. That's why Paul could say, "I die daily," because he knew he was still entrapped in his "body of death."

[Gerr]

They have been put to death.

All of the flesh.

All of the lusts....

Past tense...

What do you think?

The same Paul who said, "I die daily," also said this: "for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live." NASB.

"Putting to death" is present tense, an ongoing process. That's sanctification - a daily denial and putting to death the deeds of the flesh.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

They have been put to death.

All of the flesh.

All of the lusts....

Past tense...

What do you think?

The same Paul who said, "I die daily," also said this: "for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live." NASB.

"Putting to death" is present tense, an ongoing process. That's sanctification - a daily denial and putting to death the deeds of the flesh.

Interesting.

Past tense put to death.

Present tense putting to death.

Another thing to pray about and seek understanding on...

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Are you intentionally wishing to be unclear? If so, there's no point in continuing a discussion. If no, would you please clarify what you meant.

There are many things which one can inherit from one's parents which have nothing to do with one's nature. For example, money, to name one thing. "Inheritance" is a very broad term. If you're talking about conception, that would limit it to DNA, it would seem to me. If your talking about birth, that would include prenatal influences as well. But if one is going to include pre-natal influences, why not post-natal ones? What point in time are you talking about when you say "that which is inherited from the parent." This seems to me to be a critical question to understanding your statement, yet you didn't respond to the question. You just said you're considering more than DNA.

Patience pnat... :-)

Your nature is what you are born with, right?

Why what you are born with? What is birth the defining moment of time?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Christ said, "I judge no man....He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 8, John 12)

Are we playing semantics here?

No, I actually made a point, but you cut everything out I said.

Quote:

John 5:22 "The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,"

Rom 2:16 "on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."

And quoted a couple of verses with no comment.

Please address the points I made if you wish to carry on a discussion. That's a reasonable request, isn't it? Why just cut out a little snipped of a verse and make no reference to the points I was making? And then label this as "playing with semantics"?

No, it's not semantics. There's a very important principle going on that Christ was explaining, I believe, which is what the point I was making was getting at.

[pnattmbtc]

I would say God judges, and the universe examine or "judge" Gods judgements.

[pnattmbtc]

Gerry, regarding your theory about justification, I'll state my understanding of it, and see if you agree.

You believe that once a person is justified, their status remains unchanged during their life. In the judgment, that status will be verified, and either they will be rendered "still justified" or "not justified."

Given that pardon and justification are "one in the same," it would follow that the same thing could be said in regards to pardon. That is, a person, once pardoned, retains the status of "pardoned," until the judgment. So a person is not repeatedly pardoned, but only pardoned once (in the same way that a person is only justified once).

This would seem to follow from what you have written, given the premise that pardon and justification are "one and the same" is accepted.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Christ said, "I judge no man....He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 8, John 12)

Are we playing semantics here?

No, I actually made a point, but you cut everything out I said.

Quote:

John 5:22 "The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,"

Rom 2:16 "on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."

And quoted a couple of verses with no comment.

Please address the points I made if you wish to carry on a discussion. That's a reasonable request, isn't it? Why just cut out a little snipped of a verse and make no reference to the points I was making? And then label this as "playing with semantics"?

Actually I quoted only a portion of your post just to let everyone know whom I was responding to. And I added no comment to the two verses because there was nothing else add. The two verses plainly says Jesus is the Judge.

Quote:

No, it's not semantics. There's a very important principle going on that Christ was explaining, I believe, which is what the point I was making was getting at.

And the principle is? That a judge's verdict is based on the evidence? i.e. the defendant's conduct?

[pnattmbtc]

The principle is what I explained in the post you snipped from, and which I've been explaining in other posts, such as the most recent one (I think) that I addressed to Twilight.

Simply put, I believe God will take everyone to heaven who would be happy there. So the judgment is simply His deciding who would be happy there or not, a decision based on knowing people's character, and resurrecting them either to the one resurrection or the other.

I believe the point Jesus Christ was getting at in His comment is that He judges no one, but that each one judges themselves according to how they respond to the truth, as it is this which sets our character, and determines whether or not we would be happy in heaven.

[Gerr]

Interesting.

Past tense put to death.

Present tense putting to death.

Another thing to pray about and seek understanding on...

Mark :-)

"Put to death" is used by NIV, ESV, NLT, NKJV, DARBY, ASV, GNT, HCSB, GNT, NRSV, RSV & YLT. But according to the ESV interlinear, it is present tense, not past tense.

[Gerr]

The principle is what I explained in the post you snipped from, and which I've been explaining in other posts, such as the most recent one (I think) that I addressed to Twilight.

Simply put, I believe God will take everyone to heaven who would be happy there. So the judgment is simply His deciding who would be happy there or not, a decision based on knowing people's character, and resurrecting them either to the one resurrection or the other.

But is not the person's character determine or indicate whether that person would be happy in heaven or not? One who hates religious services here would be miserable there.

Quote:

I believe the point Jesus Christ was getting at in His comment is that He judges no one, but that each one judges themselves according to how they respond to the truth, as it is this which sets our character, and determines whether or not we would be happy in heaven.

Jesus did say, "whoever does not believe is condemned already." Jn 3:18 ESV. A murderer condmens himself, yes, but the judge and jury still have to make the verdict official.Until then, no sentence can be carried out.

[Gerr]

Gerry, regarding your theory about justification, I'll state my understanding of it, and see if you agree.

You believe that once a person is justified, their status remains unchanged during their life. In the judgment, that status will be verified, and either they will be rendered "still justified" or "not justified."

Given that pardon and justification are "one in the same," it would follow that the same thing could be said in regards to pardon. That is, a person, once pardoned, retains the status of "pardoned," until the judgment. So a person is not repeatedly pardoned, but only pardoned once (in the same way that a person is only justified once).

This would seem to follow from what you have written, given the premise that pardon and justification are "one and the same" is accepted.

Yes, that is how I presently understand it.

[pnattmbtc]

p:The principle is what I explained in the post you snipped from, and which I've been explaining in other posts, such as the most recent one (I think) that I addressed to Twilight.

Simply put, I believe God will take everyone to heaven who would be happy there. So the judgment is simply His deciding who would be happy there or not, a decision based on knowing people's character, and resurrecting them either to the one resurrection or the other.

G:But is not the person's character determine or indicate whether that person would be happy in heaven or not?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Gerry, regarding your theory about justification, I'll state my understanding of it, and see if you agree.

You believe that once a person is justified, their status remains unchanged during their life. In the judgment, that status will be verified, and either they will be rendered "still justified" or "not justified."

Given that pardon and justification are "one in the same," it would follow that the same thing could be said in regards to pardon. That is, a person, once pardoned, retains the status of "pardoned," until the judgment. So a person is not repeatedly pardoned, but only pardoned once (in the same way that a person is only justified once).

This would seem to follow from what you have written, given the premise that pardon and justification are "one and the same" is accepted.

Yes, that is how I presently understand it.

Ok, thanks for the confirmation. I'm glad I understood you correctly.

Now you would agree that one is pardoned repeatedly, wouldn't you? I'm not speaking of the status, but of the act. Although you are a justified person, you may sin, and ask for pardon, and in such a case, God actually does pardon you, correct?

[Twilight]

The principle is what I explained in the post you snipped from, and which I've been explaining in other posts, such as the most recent one (I think) that I addressed to Twilight.

Simply put, I believe God will take everyone to heaven who would be happy there. So the judgment is simply His deciding who would be happy there or not, a decision based on knowing people's character, and resurrecting them either to the one resurrection or the other.

I believe the point Jesus Christ was getting at in His comment is that He judges no one, but that each one judges themselves according to how they respond to the truth, as it is this which sets our character, and determines whether or not we would be happy in heaven.

Where do you see obedience in this?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Interesting.

Past tense put to death.

Present tense putting to death.

Another thing to pray about and seek understanding on...

Mark :-)

"Put to death" is used by NIV, ESV, NLT, NKJV, DARBY, ASV, GNT, HCSB, GNT, NRSV, RSV & YLT. But according to the ESV interlinear, it is present tense, not past tense.

I don't know any Greek to unearth that one.

I wonder if John is about...

[Gerr]

You don't have to know a whole lot of Greek. If you have a program/software that has an interlinear with Strong's numbers, it will tell you what a word is - noun, adj., preposition, etc., and if a verb, what tense it is. Do you use a computer Bible study software?