When we sin do we disconnect?

[Robert]

Does it disconnect you right now, right after you have committed it.

Absolutely not....There's no such thing as yo-yo salvation....Saved, lost, saved, lost....

If you apostatize you are lost...there's no coming back.

[Robert]

You asked where did Jack get his info? I said Paul.

[Gerr]

You asked where did Jack get his info? I said Paul.

And I said where? Most scholars I have come across in the commentaries seen to think the justification is God's declaration that a person is righteous separate from a change in the person, otherwise it's Roman Catholic dogma.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Does it disconnect you right now, right after you have committed it.

Absolutely not....There's no such thing as yo-yo salvation....Saved, lost, saved, lost....

Then on this point we are agreed.

[Robert]

And I said where? Most scholars I have come across in the commentaries seen to think the justification is God's declaration that a person is righteous separate from a change in the person, otherwise it's Roman Catholic dogma.

Oh, so you are attaching "the truth as it is in Christ"?

[Gerr]

Oh, so you are attaching "the truth as it is in Christ"?

I don't know what that means, but what I am expressing here is truth as I understand it.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

G:So then, everytime we sin we are disconnected from God. And to be disconnected can only mean lost?

p:It depends upon what "lost" means.

G:Therefore, every time a believer sins, he/she is lost until re-justified when he/she repents? Am I understanding your position?

p:The key point to understanding my position is that it starts with this assumption: God will take everybody to heaven who would be happy there. Given this as a starting point, "lost" to me would mean anyone who would not be happy in heaven.

G:This thread is not about those happy or unhappy in heaven.

You asked me a question, so I answered it. You asked if you were understanding my position, so I explained it.

Quote:

It is about whether one willful sin disconnects one from God. I believe I saw a post in which you stated that you believe that to be the case. Correct me if I misunderstood your position. So to me to be disconnected from the source of life means death, lost.

I explained my position. "Disconnect" wasn't my choice of words. I explained my position in my own words when I spoke of the damage does to one's own conscience and so forth. I don't think we go lost/saved/lost/saved, etc. I also never equated "disconnection" with "unjustified" or "lost." However, if we willfully sin, that's damaging to us, and we need to be healed from that, or else it can fester until it becomes the out and out rebellion and hatred we see manifest by those who attack God in the second resurrection.

Quote:

p:Now if a person commits a single sin, that certainly would be damaging to the conscience, but would this necessarily mean that the person wouldn't be happy in heaven? That's not so clear to me. As the SOP puts it, ones destiny is not set by the occasional good deed or misdeed.

G:I pointed out that that is a flaw in the position that one is unjustified or disconnected every time a believer sins,

I never said anyone was "unjustified." I never used that term. I addressed the OP, and explained it in terms of the damage one does to one's own self and conscience. One is "disconnected," in the sense that one knows one has committed sin against God and has not repented of that sin. Is it your position that one can willfully sin against God without any sort of disconnection taking place?

Now if your idea here is that God does not disconnect from us, I agree with that 100%. But willful sin is damaging to us, and we need to be healed from that damage.

Quote:

and then reconnected/justied after each repentance. That if you suddenly died with one unrepented sin, you're toast!

As I explained, the key issue in my understanding is whether or not one would be happy in heaven, and it is not the occasional good deed or misdeed that determines one's destiny. The issue is not one of status but of heart. What are the affections of our heart? God doesn't care what status we have. He cares if we would be happy in heaven.

[pnattmbtc]

And I said where? Most scholars I have come across in the commentaries seen to think the justification is God's declaration that a person is righteous separate from a change in the person, otherwise it's Roman Catholic dogma.

[Robert]

"Being Justified." In other words, being made righteous. To justify means to make righteous.

And since I'm not righteous in my experience I'm lost??....This is legalism.

While it is true that justification is more than a legal standing, it is precisely that legal standing by which we are saved. You can't add to what Christ did, you can only experience it.

[teresaq]

do we need a legal standing or a change of heart? when adam and eve sinned, what happened to their nature? when we are promised, life and that more abundantly, how do we get it with just some legal proclamation?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. {DA 175.5}

[Robert]

do we need a legal standing or a change of heart?

In order to obtain heaven we need a legal standing. That we have "in Christ" literally so at the resurrection you receive a glorified life free from indwelling sin.

[Robert]

Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. {DA 175.5}

Man of Romans 7: I delight in the law of God after the inward man. But he's failing.

David said the same, and he failed many times. He was a very violent, vengeful person.

yes, the grew, but God accepted them where they were at.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

t:do we need a legal standing or a change of heart?

R:In order to obtain heaven we need a legal standing.

What's important is whether or not a person would be happy in heaven. How does having a legal status help this?

[Robert]

Quote:

t:do we need a legal standing or a change of heart?

R:In order to obtain heaven we need a legal standing.

What's important is whether or not a person would be happy in heaven. How does having a legal status help this?

Wow...you can't see this, can you?

We have a new creation literally "in Christ". He is the "last" or "2nd Adam". What does this mean? Well, what did we receive from the "1st Adam"? Ellen White: "Adam sinned, and the children of Adam share his guilt and its consequences." What we have received from Adam is "the law of sin and death".

Now, what do you have in the 2nd Adam?

2 Cor 5:17 "if anyone is in Christ [by faith], there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ"

So where is our immortal, sinless humanity that we receive at the 2nd coming?

Col 1:13 "He [God] has rescued (past tense) us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

Eph 2:5 "by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"

We have a new, glorified humanity "in Christ" right now. At the 2nd coming we will receive this. But for now it's a legal standing accepted by faith.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

t:do we need a legal standing or a change of heart?

R:In order to obtain heaven we need a legal standing.

p:What's important is whether or not a person would be happy in heaven. How does having a legal status help this?

R:Wow...you can't see this, can you?

It could be a case of seeing more, as opposed to less. I'm very familiar with the theology that you espouse.

Quote:

We have a new creation literally "in Christ". He is the "last" or "2nd Adam". What does this mean? Well, what did we receive from the "1st Adam"? Ellen White: "Adam sinned, and the children of Adam share his guilt and its consequences." What we have received from Adam is "the law of sin and death".

Now, what do you have in the 2nd Adam?

2 Cor 5:17 "if anyone is in Christ [by faith], there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ"

So where is our immortal, sinless humanity that we receive at the 2nd coming?

Col 1:13 "He [God] has rescued (past tense) us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

Eph 2:5 "by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"

We have a new, glorified humanity "in Christ" right now. At the 2nd coming we will receive this. But for now it's a legal standing accepted by faith.

This didn't address my question. What difference does our legal status make as to whether or not we would be happy in heaven? Do you think God would prevent a person from going to heaven who would been happy there because he didn't have the right status? Conversely, do you think there will be anybody in heaven with the right legal status who is not happy there? It seems to me that answers to these questions are obvious; so what difference does the legal status make?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

do we need a legal standing or a change of heart?

In order to obtain heaven we need a legal standing. That we have "in Christ" literally so at the resurrection you receive a glorified life free from indwelling sin.

i dont know what you see as indwelling sin.

[jasd]

QR frame;

Does not priesthood, such as a Melchisedecian order, bespeak legalism?

The Xtian priests – when do their courses of function or service begin?—this side of the Parousia?—or the Millennium forward?

I suggest ‘the Millennium forward...

What is the purpose of a priesthood – should all have either been ‘saved’ or ‘lost’ – primarily by faith in or by the faith of Jesus Christ – without consideration of a secondary or tertiary or..., means by which we might be saved...?

[Robert]

what difference does the legal status make?

Read my answer again. Be sure not to get distracted by the trees in the forest..... teehe

Your legal standing is by faith, now. When Christ returns as the 2nd Adam you will receive a sinless life, that is completely in harmony with His agape love, by proclamation. You received your present life by procreation from the 1st Adam.

[Robert]

i dont know what you see as indwelling sin.

Iniquity - our bent-to-self.

[Robert]

When Christ returns as the 2nd Adam you will receive a sinless life...by proclamation.

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh [sarx] and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

do we need a legal standing or a change of heart?

In order to obtain heaven we need a legal standing....

Now the real truth comes out WHO is REALLY preoccupied with legalism!!!!!!!

[Robert]

Now the real truth comes out WHO is REALLY preoccupied with legalism!!!!!!!

The law must be satisfied. It has in the Holy history of Christ as the Son of Man.

[Woody]

Yes Rob. You are absolutely correct. I am not sure why some are SO resistive to Jesus answering the curse of the Law.