When we sin do we disconnect?

[Twilight]

You don't have to know a whole lot of Greek. If you have a program/software that has an interlinear with Strong's numbers, it will tell you what a word is - noun, adj., preposition, etc., and if a verb, what tense it is. Do you use a computer Bible study software?

Thank you Gerry, will have a look. :-)

[pnattmbtc]

p:The principle is what I explained in the post you snipped from, and which I've been explaining in other posts, such as the most recent one (I think) that I addressed to Twilight.

Simply put, I believe God will take everyone to heaven who would be happy there. So the judgment is simply His deciding who would be happy there or not, a decision based on knowing people's character, and resurrecting them either to the one resurrection or the other.

I believe the point Jesus Christ was getting at in His comment is that He judges no one, but that each one judges themselves according to how they respond to the truth, as it is this which sets our character, and determines whether or not we would be happy in heaven.

T:Where do you see obedience in this?

A disobedient person would not be happy in heaven, because he doesn't live in harmony with God or His principles.

I'm not sure what you were wanting to get at, so it's possible this doesn't address your question. If not, please re-ask.

[pnattmbtc]

There are places online you can look for the break down of things in Greek. For example, here's one:

http://biblelexicon.org/john/3-16.htm

[teresaq]

More to the point, I think, is that one who hates God and His principles would be miserable there.

yes, i think we do not half-comprehend the difference between God and ourselves, and heaven and here...

[Gerr]

Ok, thanks for the confirmation. I'm glad I understood you correctly.

Now you would agree that one is pardoned repeatedly, wouldn't you? I'm not speaking of the status, but of the act. Although you are a justified person, you may sin, and ask for pardon, and in such a case, God actually does pardon you, correct?

Yes, I believe that's true. That's because Jesus is still interceding for us. He does not stand as a judge over us until our names come up for judgment.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Ok, thanks for the confirmation. I'm glad I understood you correctly.

Now you would agree that one is pardoned repeatedly, wouldn't you? I'm not speaking of the status, but of the act. Although you are a justified person, you may sin, and ask for pardon, and in such a case, God actually does pardon you, correct?

G:Yes, I believe that's true. That's because Jesus is still interceding for us. He does not stand as a judge over us until our names come up for judgment.

Ok, now we're back to the point I was making before. If justification and pardon are "one and the same," and one is repeatedly pardoned, then one is repeatedly justified. This is simple logic.

So (unless you wish to disagree that these are "one and the same"), to be clear on your idea (and I think I can represent it accurately, given the previous clarification), you need to distinguish between the act of being justified and the status of being justified. That is, I think you need to make this clear in explaining your idea.

I agree that it's true that one is repeatedly pardoned, but not for the reason you state. This, IMO, puts Jesus in a negative light. It sounds like when "Jesus stands as a judge over us," He will no longer pardon us because He is no longer willing to. But I believe Jesus would always be willing to pardon us. He would always pardon anyone who sincerely wished to be pardoned.

The problem, as I see it, is that as the light regarding God's character shines brighter and brighter, people are divided into two camps; those who become Christ-like, and those who become unChrist-like. Those who become Christ-like become so like Christ in character that they no longer need to ask for pardon because all trace of rebellion has left them. But if the did ask for pardon, Christ would give it to them. He never refuses pardon to anyone who (sincerely) asks for it.

The problem is never with God's actions towards us, but with sin's actions towards us, to personalize sin. That is, sin acts against us; against our minds and consciences. It causes us to view God in a wrong light, as One who is out to punish or destroy, as opposed to One who only pardons and heals. It is sin that destroys us, by inducing us to separate ourselves from God.

[pnattmbtc]

Coming back to the OP, I agree that sin disconnects us from God, and the reason is because of how it acts against our own minds and conscience. We are conscious of wrong-doing, and, like a child who knows its done wrong, we need to be reconciled in order for things to be right with us. As long as we are in rebellion against God, our conscience condemns us, and our sense of guilt destroys us in many ways.

[Gerr]

Ok, now we're back to the point I was making before. If justification and pardon are "one and the same," and one is repeatedly pardoned, then one is repeatedly justified. This is simple logic.

So (unless you wish to disagree that these are "one and the same"), to be clear on your idea (and I think I can represent it accurately, given the previous clarification), you need to distinguish between the act of being justified and the status of being justified. That is, I think you need to make this clear in explaining your idea.

But repeated pardon/justification is just MAINTAINING one's status of having been justified. Jesus said at the last supper, "The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean," because Peter wanted to be washed all over again.

[Gerr]

Coming back to the OP, I agree that sin disconnects us from God, and the reason is because of how it acts against our own minds and conscience. We are conscious of wrong-doing, and, like a child who knows its done wrong, we need to be reconciled in order for things to be right with us. As long as we are in rebellion against God, our conscience condemns us, and our sense of guilt destroys us in many ways.

So then, everytime we sin we are disconnected from God. And to be disconnected can only mean lost? Therefore, every time a believer sins, he/she is lost until re-justified when he/she repents? Am I understanding your position?

[Robert]

Common Misunderstandings

1. Justification by faith refers only to the forgiveness of past sins. It’s true that one important truth about justification is the forgiveness of our past sins, but justification involves far more than that. The righteousness of Christ includes the fact that He endured the just penalty of the law on behalf of our sins — past, present, and future. But in a positive sense, Christ also kept the whole law on our behalf. All this becomes ours the moment we are justified by faith.

Justification means all of Christ’s righteousness that He provided for us so that nothing more is required of us to qualify for heaven. In other words, we stand perfect in Him. If we are not absolutely clear on this point, we will continue to be victims of self-concern, constantly fearful about our eternal security. In this condition it is impossible to have a real heart appreciation for Christ’s cross or to experience genuine sanctification by faith.

Forgiveness is the most wonderful thing for us sinners. But glorious as it is, forgiveness is still a negative thing, for it is concerned only with acquitting us of our sins. Justification, on the other hand, is both a negative and a positive truth. It includes the negative aspect — forgiveness — but it goes beyond that to declare us righteous and to change our hearts from being self-centered to being Christ-centered [see Philippians 1:21]. The very righteousness of Christ is put to our account so that we stand before God and His law perfectly righteous, both now and in the judgment. This is the superabundant gift of the gospel [see Isaiah 54:17; Acts 13:39; Romans 10:4].

The devil has deceived many Christians into believing that justification by faith does not fully qualify them for heaven, that something more is necessary, that they must keep the law and do good works. As a result, many sincere Christians are trapped in a subtle form of legalism, living in fear and insecurity.

2. Every time we fall or sin we become unjustified. This is another common misunderstanding about justification. It is a monstrous teaching that has no support from the Word of God.

It’s true that every time we fall into sin we misrepresent Christ and hurt Him, because even the smallest sin figured in what happened at the cross. However, God does not reject us every time we make a mistake or fall into sin. If we believe that we lost our justification in Christ each time we sin, we completely invalidate the truth of justification by faith. Such a concept is based on the idea that we are justified because of our obedience — what Christ is doing in us — and not because of what He has already accomplished for us by His doing and dying on the cross. Such an idea makes the gospel good advice instead of good news.

JS

[Gerr]

Every time we fall or sin we become unjustified. This is another common misunderstanding about justification

Hmmmmm. Looks like there's something we agree on.

Quote:

Justification, on the other hand, is both a negative and a positive truth. It includes the negative aspect — forgiveness — but it goes beyond that to declare us righteous and to change our hearts from being self-centered to being Christ-centered

That justification is more than just pardon, that it also changes the heart - is that original with you? Or did you get it from the "pope" that you have been trying so hard to discredit as any kind of authority?

[pnattmbtc]

p:Coming back to the OP, I agree that sin disconnects us from God, and the reason is because of how it acts against our own minds and conscience. We are conscious of wrong-doing, and, like a child who knows its done wrong, we need to be reconciled in order for things to be right with us. As long as we are in rebellion against God, our conscience condemns us, and our sense of guilt destroys us in many ways.

G:So then, everytime we sin we are disconnected from God. And to be disconnected can only mean lost?

[Robert]

That justification is more than just pardon, that it also changes the heart - is that original with you? Or did you get it from the "pope" that you have been trying so hard to discredit as any kind of authority?

I got that from Pope Jack teehe ....You should have seen the initials, JS as the bottom.

[Robert]

Here's what I believe. I believe that we are once saved always saved as long as our faith remains "in Christ". However, I also believe that we can harden our hearts and become lost. This is the unpardonable sin - the rejection of Jesus Christ through the Spirit of God. Once this occur the apostate is once lost and forever lost. No coming back because his heart is impenetrable!

Where do I get this?

Heb 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death....

What Paul is saying is that while we stand perfect "in Christ" and have the assurance of salvation, let's cease from besetting sin where we repent again and again and again. Let's go from the experience of Romans 7 to 8.

Now verse 4:

It is impossible [did you get that?] for those who have once been enlightened [converted], who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit [this is speaking of a born again believer], 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away [apostatize], to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

You see we were all implicated in the death of Christ. That's what human nature will do to God. The only thing is this was before conversion. We were ignorant, but after conversion, if we willfully nail Christ back on that cross (symbolically speaking), we have rejected Christ and gone back to the way of our flesh. We have hardened our hearts to the voice of God through the Spirit.

Heb 10:28,29 says the same:

28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses [the OC demands] died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot [rejected Christ], who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him [set him apart - i.e., our standing in Christ], and who has insulted the Spirit of grace [hardened his heart]?

When you do this, forget it....You'll never come back. Now this is very different from backsliding. You might toy with the flesh for a season, but you have not renounced Christ. That isn't apostacy.

But if you live according to the flesh as a lifestyle, your flesh, which hates the principle of God's agape, will pull you out of Christ.

[pnattmbtc]

That justification is more than just pardon, that it also changes the heart - is that original with you? Or did you get it from the "pope" that you have been trying so hard to discredit as any kind of authority?

Ellen White says that justification and pardon are "one and the same." I think she's right. I think the error is not recognizing that pardon (or forgiveness) involves a changing of the heart. Waggoner gives an excellent explanation of this in "Christ and His Righteousness." (where he speaks of Zechariah being clothed with new garments).

[Robert]

But if you live according to the flesh as a lifestyle, your flesh, which hates the principle of God's agape, will pull you out of Christ.

Here's how one can apostatize:

[This is Jack S.]

In other words, when you accept Christ, there are two things that you must remember: righteousness is always by faith. Is that clear? Righteousness in the New Testament and in the Bible is always by faith. Those who try to get righteousness by works will fail. But those who try righteousness by faith will succeed. Now the righteousness which saves us is in Who? It is in Christ. Where is Christ? In heaven, where no thief can go. So the righteousness which saves you is guaranteed, nobody can destroy it. But the faith that makes that righteousness effective is in us. That [faith] Satan can touch. And the moment you accept Christ, Satan will do everything to destroy your faith. And you need to be on your guard.

Sometime later I’m going to give a whole study on this when we come to the word faith itself. Because faith, folks, is a fight, you have to hold on to it at all costs. And briefly, there are three things that Satan will use to destroy your faith. I’ll go into detail some other time, but I’ll just mention the three things:

1. By perverting the truth he can destroy your faith.

He tried that with the Galatians and nearly succeeded. Thanks to Paul’s letter to the Galatians he stopped them. What do I mean by perverting the truth? Taking your eyes from Christ to yourself. Looking at your performance, and judging each other, whether you have made the grade or not. That’s one way.

2. By dangling the trinkets of the world before you

.

And Paul tells Timothy that Demas has left (Demas was an evangelist with Paul), “He has left me and gone back to the world.” And so the devil will dangle trinkets, you know, materialism. And he will say, “Look, as a Christian, life is miserable; see what I will give you.” And he’ll pull you out of Christ.

3. By persecution.

And persecution can by physical, it can be social, it can be mental. One of the greatest types of persecution we face in the mission field today is the reaction of the nationals. They will say, “We don’t want you. Go home!” And you get discouraged, “What am I here for?” And I had to remind myself, “I was sent here by Jesus Christ. Whether you like it or not, I’m going to be here and serve you.”

[Gerr]

I got that from Pope Jack teehe ....You should have seen the initials, JS as the bottom.

Guess where he got it from!!!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I got that from Pope Jack teehe ....You should have seen the initials, JS as the bottom.

Guess where he got it from!!!

Paul!

[teresaq]

Here's another thing to bear in mind. According to the SOP description of what will happen in the second resurrection, all those who are in the resurrection will rebel against God. This speaks of a lot more than a mere sin that they committed and didn't confess. It means there's genuine hatred in their heart against God. They want to attack Him and take over His city. There's a lot going on here! One's character has to be really messed up to desire to take such drastic violent aggressive action against God. This again speaks to a lot more than a mere sin one has committed, but to a character which is set against God and His ways.

first, according to the sop and bible...

secondly, what you say is true, since all they had to do was accept salvation and could have had freely everything in the city, but even after the resurrection and being fully convinced, salvation,or a reversal of their way of thinking, was not what they want.

[Gerr]

G:So then, everytime we sin we are disconnected from God. And to be disconnected can only mean lost?

It depends upon what "lost" means.

Quote:

Therefore, every time a believer sins, he/she is lost until re-justified when he/she repents? Am I understanding your position?

The key point to understanding my position is that it starts with this assumption: God will take everybody to heaven who would be happy there. Given this as a starting point, "lost" to me would mean anyone who would not be happy in heaven.

This thread is not about those happy or unhappy in heaven. It is about whether one willful sin disconnects one from God. I believe I saw a post in which you stated that you believe that to be the case. Correct me if I misunderstood your position. So to me to be disconnected from the source of life means death, lost.

Quote:

Now if a person commits a single sin, that certainly would be damaging to the conscience, but would this necessarily mean that the person wouldn't be happy in heaven? That's not so clear to me. As the SOP puts it, ones destiny is not set by the occasional good deed or misdeed.

I pointed out that that is a flaw in the position that one is unjustified or disconnected every time a believer sins, and then reconnected/justied after each repentance. That if you suddenly died with one unrepented sin, you're toast!

[Gerr]

G: Guess where he got it from!!!

R: Paul!

Text please?

[Robert]

It is about whether one willful sin disconnects one from God.

It can...."Even one wrong trait of character, one sinful desire, persistently cherished, will eventually neutralize all the power of the gospel." [EGW]

Keep in mind there's a big difference between practicing known sin as a lifestyle and a besetting sin.

Let's say I sleep with my next door neighbor often. I have a problem, but is it because I condone that sin as a legitimate lifestyle or am I struggling (like the man of Romans 7).

If I practice it I'm not repenting....I justify it....Stuff like "God made sex...or woman are put here for my enjoyment" is justification. Such will eventually lead to me renouncing Christ....

[Robert]

Text please?

Huh?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

It is about whether one willful sin disconnects one from God.

It can...."Even one wrong trait of character, one sinful desire, persistently cherished, will eventually neutralize all the power of the gospel." [EGW]

The question is NOT whether one sin "eventually" disconnects one from God. Does it disconnect you right now, right after you have committed it.

BTW, even besetting sins are to be overcome.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Text please?

Huh?

If he got it from Paul, you must know where it's found!