Membership of the SDA Church....

[Bravus]

Hehe, not so fast: I asked first! That is, your post at the top of this page says:

Quote:

I think one of the problems here is a lack of understanding what the Bible teaches about the church. It is definitely not just a place to congregate, etc.

It seems to me that what many of us are doing is throwing the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy counsels on this topic to the wind, almost as if they don't have any authority. Is this subject to be decided by human opinion and human desires? Or by the testimony of the Spirit of Christ?

And yet I've asked a couple of times now, and others have backed it up, just what the Bible does say on the topic. I think it's incumbent on you to now bring that evidence.

(In very brief, I've already quoted my own key scripture on the topic, but here it is again: Luke 14:23 (King James Version) "And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.")

I stand ready to do as you've asked, but since it is you who has been making loud claims about what is the correct view, and casting aspersions on those with different views, I think you need to step up first.

[John317]

Yes, this is after Woody said that SDA church doesn't need membership and after Co-Aspen said, "The church is merely a place to congregate, share, support and commune with God together at a special time."

Do you and others who are reading this thread agree with these statements? That is, do you and others believe these are the teachings of the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy? Or are these statements based merely on personal opinions and feelings?

[Bravus]

(waits for some Scripture)

[John317]

...it is you who has been ... casting aspersions on those with different views, I think you need to step up first.

Where are the "aspersions"? Do you mean "slander"?

[John317]

Yes, this is after Woody said that SDA church doesn't need membership and after Co-Aspen said, "The church is merely a place to congregate, share, support and commune with God together at a special time."

Do you and others who are reading this thread agree with these statements? That is, do you and others believe these are the teachings of the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy? Or are these statements based merely on personal opinions and feelings?

[Bravus]

The aspersions are simply that you're claiming others' views are just based on personal opinion, not Scripture, yet you *still* seem unwilling to step up and show what a Scriptural view on the issue looks like.

[John317]

Let's begin with the fundamental beliefs of the SDA Church in regard to your question. I would ask you-- and Woody, Co-Aspen, or anyone else who wants to answer-- to tell what parts of these beliefs you disaree with or have difficulty accepting:

12. Church:

The church is the community of believers who confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. In continuity with the people of God in Old Testament times, we are called out from the world; and we join together for worship, for fellowship, for instruction in the Word, for the celebration of the Lord's Supper, for service to all mankind, and for the worldwide proclamation of the gospel. The church derives its authority from Christ, who is the incarnate Word, and from the Scriptures, which are the written Word. The church is God's family; adopted by Him as children, its members live on the basis of the new covenant. The church is the body of Christ, a community of faith of which Christ Himself is the Head. The church is the bride for whom Christ died that He might sanctify and cleanse her. At His return in triumph, He will present her to Himself a glorious church, the faithful of all the ages, the purchase of His blood, not having spot or wrinkle, but holy and without blemish. (Gen. 12:3; Acts 7:38; Eph. 4:11-15; 3:8-11; Matt. 28:19, 20; 16:13-20; 18:18; Eph. 2:19-22; 1:22, 23; 5:23-27; Col. 1:17, 18.)

13. Remnant and Its Mission:

The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This remnant announces the arrival of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent. This proclamation is symbolized by the three angels of Revelation 14; it coincides with the work of judgment in heaven and results in a work of repentance and reform on earth. Every believer is called to have a personal part in this worldwide witness. (Rev. 12:17; 14:6-12; 18:1-4; 2 Cor. 5:10; Jude 3, 14; 1 Peter 1:16-19; 2 Peter 3:10-14; Rev. 21:1-14.)

14. Unity in the Body of Christ:

The church is one body with many members, called from every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. In Christ we are a new creation; distinctions of race, culture, learning, and nationality, and differences between high and low, rich and poor, male and female, must not be divisive among us. We are all equal in Christ, who by one Spirit has bonded us into one fellowship with Him and with one another; we are to serve and be served without partiality or reservation. Through the revelation of Jesus Christ in the Scriptures we share the same faith and hope, and reach out in one witness to all. This unity has its source in the oneness of the triune God, who has adopted us as His children. (Rom. 12:4, 5; 1 Cor. 12:12-14; Matt. 28:19, 20; Ps. 133:1; 2 Cor. 5:16, 17; Acts 17:26, 27; Gal. 3:27, 29; Col. 3:10-15; Eph. 4:14-16; 4:1-6; John 17:20-23.)

15. Baptism:

By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church. Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, and our reception of the Holy Spirit. It is by immersion in water and is contingent on an affirmation of faith in Jesus and evidence of repentance of sin. It follows instruction in the Holy Scriptures and acceptance of their teachings. (Rom. 6:1-6; Col. 2:12, 13; Acts 16:30-33; 22:16; 2:38; Matt. 28:19, 20.)

[John317]

The aspersions are simply that you're claiming others' views are just based on personal opinion, not Scripture, yet you *still* seem unwilling to step up and show what a Scriptural view on the issue looks like.

Bravus, are you finding fault with such statements on the Adventist Forum as the following?

Is this what you call "aspersions," or "slander"?

Quote:

It seems to me that what many of us are doing is throwing the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy counsels on this topic to the wind, almost as if they don't have any authority. Is this subject to be decided by human opinion and human desires? Or by the testimony of the Spirit of Christ?

You'll notice it is a question. I am asking people to show that their views, such as that the church is simply a place to congregate or that we don't need membership, are based on the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy and not on mere human opinion.

[Bravus]

'Slander' is your word. I choose my words carefully, and 'aspersions' is accurate.

Edit: the second part is a question, the first part a statement:

Quote:

It seems to me that what many of us are doing is throwing the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy counsels on this topic to the wind, almost as if they don't have any authority.

[John317]

The aspersions are simply that you're claiming others' views are just based on personal opinion, not Scripture, yet you *still* seem unwilling to step up and show what a Scriptural view on the issue looks like.

Do you honestly categorize as "aspersions" statements, and questions, by people that particular views are not based on the Bible but are based on personal opinion?

Personally I do not care if people say that I am expressing my opinion and not the teaching of the Bible. That does me no harm. All I have to do is show the Bible evidence. But it has never occurred to me to call such expressions "aspersions" or "slander" or making a "damaging remark" about someone. It is a legitimate question and deserves a serious, thoughtful answer.

[Bravus]

What I don't see anywhere in those Fundamental Beliefs is anything about excluding people. Rather, I see:

Quote:

The church is one body with many members, called from every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. In Christ we are a new creation; distinctions of race, culture, learning, and nationality, and differences between high and low, rich and poor, male and female, must not be divisive among us. We are all equal in Christ, who by one Spirit has bonded us into one fellowship with Him and with one another; we are to serve and be served without partiality or reservation.

[John317]

'Slander' is your word. I choose my words carefully, and 'aspersions' is accurate.

The dictionary gives "slander" as a synonym of "aspersion."

Quote:

Edit: the second part is a question, the first part a statement:

"It seems to me that what many of us are doing is throwing the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy counsels on this topic to the wind, almost as if they don't have any authority."

And why do you call the last statement an "aspersion"?

But if that is an "aspersion" to you, where is the harm or what is wrong with it?

There is nothing immoral, unethical, or against Christ, to express such a viewpoint.

[Bravus]

No, but it requires backup. That is, it would be wrong to cast *unfounded* aspersions.

That is what I have continually been trying to get you to do: provide the evidence. If you will do so, I will happily withdraw the word. But for the moment, what we have is your unsupported claim that people on a Christian board are throwing away what the Bible says on a topic.

That's a very serious charge: now substantiate it or resile from it.

[John317]

Woody said that SDA church doesn't need membership and afterwards Co-Aspen said, "The church is merely a place to congregate, share, support and commune with God together at a special time."

Before I continue with the discussion, would you please tell me if you agree with the above statements? It will give me a much better understanding of how to approach the topic here. I have little idea of what you believe in regard to the church.

[teresaq]

this is an interesting thought that i came across regarding "membership",

The light given me by the word of God is that the speech needs to be converted and sanctified. The Lord requires that education should be given in the science of conversation. This faculty has been much abused and perverted. It has not been held as a precious gift from God, to be used to glorify His name. The words are a power for good or evil, a savor of life unto life, or of death unto death. Choice words must be spoken by those who would do service for Christ. Haphazard words, hasty, common words, talking for the sake of talking, when silence would be better, is a sin. Those who are the most wordy exercise no wholesome influence upon the society in which they live and move. Bible religion is not to be boastfully paraded, but quietly practiced in good words and works.--Ms 74, 1897. {VSS 30.3}

Notice these words: "And let the peace of God rule in your heart." If you do this, a flood of words that have in them no virtue or goodness, will not pour from your lips. "To the which also ye are called in one body, and be ye thankful. Let the word of God dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by Him." {VSS 31.1}

This is the education we need in our schools. The hasty, reckless use of the faculty of speech lies at the foundation of nearly all the church troubles that exist. Evilspeaking should be dealt with as a misdemeanor that is subject to church trial and separation from church membership if persisted in; for the church cannot be set in order in any other way.--Ms 74, 1897. {VSS 31.2}

[John317]

What I don't see anywhere in those Fundamental Beliefs is anything about excluding people.

What do you mean by "excluding" people? Define your terms.

[John317]

(quote)... Evilspeaking should be dealt with as a misdemeanor that is subject to church trial and separation from church membership if persisted in; for the church cannot be set in order in any other way.--Ms 74, 1897. {VSS 31.2}

Do you believe this?

Does Bravus believe this statement by Ellen G. White?

[Bravus]

(keeps on waiting for some Scripture and a clearly laid out case rather than challenges - and won't be taking any further part in the thread until some eventuates)

[abelisle]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

(quote)... Evilspeaking should be dealt with as a misdemeanor that is subject to church trial and separation from church membership if persisted in; for the church cannot be set in order in any other way.--Ms 74, 1897. {VSS 31.2}

Do you believe this?

Does Bravus believe this statement by Ellen G. White?

Aren't we all guilty of "evilspeaking"? And if this is the case, I know a few pastors and conference leaders who should be separated from church membership.

What's with a "trial"? and a "misdemeanor"? Sounds like a criminal court proceeding to me.

Is this a statement that must be considered within its social and historical context?

Alex

[Dr. Shane]

I am sure if a study was done it would show that the vast majority of the in-the-pews members do not have an issue with any of the 28 fundamental beliefs.

[John317]

No, but it requires backup. That is, it would be wrong to cast *unfounded* aspersions.

In what sense was what I said an "aspersion"? Is what you are casting now an "aspersion"? Explain how you are using the word, because according to the dictionary, it is a damaging remark or slander.

Quote:

That is what I have continually been trying to get you to do: provide the evidence. If you will do so, I will happily withdraw the word.

Bravus, I will provide the Bible evidence for what it teaches regarding the church, as well as what Ellen White wrote. But as for your withdrawing the word "apsersion," I do not care if you withdraw it or repeat it. Such things are the least of my concerns.

Originally Posted By: Bravus

But for the moment, what we have is your unsupported claim that people on a Christian board are throwing away what the Bible says on a topic.

Yes, I will repeat it again: if people teach that the SDA church doesn't need membership and that "the church is merely a place to congregate, share, support and commune with God together at a special time," then that is contradicting the Bible's and Spirit of prophecy's teachings on the Church.

Originally Posted By: Bravus

That's a very serious charge: now substantiate it or resile from it.

Is it really a serious charge on this Forum to ask whether, or express the opinion, that someone is not basing their views on the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy?

Please tell if you agree with the statements made by Woody and Co-Aspen, which I've quoted.

[John317]

I agree, Shane. That doesn't mean that they all agree with every detail in the explanations of those doctrines, but it does mean that the vast majority don't disagree with the fundamental doctrines as they're expressed in the official teachings of the church. I certainly don't.

[John317]

What I don't see anywhere in those Fundamental Beliefs is anything about excluding people.

Rather, I see:

The church is one body with many members, called from every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. In Christ we are a new creation; distinctions of race, culture, learning, and nationality, and differences between high and low, rich and poor, male and female, must not be divisive among us. We are all equal in Christ, who by one Spirit has bonded us into one fellowship with Him and with one another; we are to serve and be served without partiality or reservation.

You say you don't see anything about excluding people. Would you explain what you mean by "excluding people"? Do you mean excluding them in any way, including from membership? Or do you mean excluding them from fellowship and worship? Those are two different issues.

[John317]

Is this a statement that must be considered within its social and historical context?

Everything must be considered within its time and place.

[Gerr]

Let's see the Biblical evidence for the idea that the church must be an exclusive club with rules for membership. There's always lots of aghast rhetoric on this topic of the 'You'll let in just anyone?!!' kind, but a marked lack of strong Scriptural support.

Let's see. There's someone who claims he's SDA but don't believe in the Sabbath. There's also someone who claims to be SDA be is of the position that Paul was a liar. There are also SDAs who don't believe in the Biblical account of creation. So when someone asks what do SDAs believe? What would the response be? That SDAs believe in NOTHING?