Membership of the SDA Church....

[Woody]

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And if you do not believe in membership, why are you asking other members to police your standard for you in this example?

If there were no members I would not be asking members to police my preferences. I would be asking my leadership to follow my preferences.

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If you had no members, who would you be asking to deal with this?

Leadership. I don't believe in membership but I do believe in leadership so that there is not chaos. Organization is important. Our prophet clearly states this.

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Without members, you would have no leaders.

False belief.

[Woody]

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So do you think it would be right to join the Baptist Church as a member, when you do not share their beliefs and then share your beliefs from the pulpit?

I don't believe in membership. But I should be free to attend even though I don't believe in everything they believe in.

[Twilight]

The Devil would like nothing better than for the church to go to fragments and not hold together as a body, as Ellen White said would happen without church discipline and government. Such would only lead the SDA church to be a church of confusion, which is exactly what characterizes Babylon. Let's listen and obey what God's prophet for these last days has written on this topic.

Amen.

The current scenario being proposed as an alternative has led me to consider the point where it seems a "white witch" could claim to be Holy Spirit led and be given a leadership position.

Just by walking in off of the street and claiming so.

Now that would be slightly worrying.

If there were no checks in place.

[Twilight]

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So do you think it would be right to join the Baptist Church as a member, when you do not share their beliefs and then share your beliefs from the pulpit?

I don't believe in membership. But I should be free to attend even though I don't believe in everything they believe in.

No one is arguing against that Woody.

We are talking membership, not fellowship.

Are you a member of the SDA church by the way?

If you do not consider membership important, do you then just fellowship with SDA's?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

So a White Witch could walk into our church and say that the Holy Spirit wants her to be a leader and that would be ok?

"White" witches do just that, whether you know it or not.

[Woody]

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So a White Witch could walk into our church and say that the Holy Spirit wants her to be a leader and that would be ok?

Yes. That would be okay. We should praise God she is walking into our church. ANYone should be able to walk in off the street and request leadership. They would not be allowed to be in leadership. But praise God they are desiring this.

[John317]

Many in the church today do not accept Biblical Authority though John317.

This is sadly true, and when occurs, those who refuse to accept the Bible as authority aren't to be listened to by the church. The SDA church must remain founded on the Bible and the testimony of the Spirit of God in the writings and prophetic ministry of Ellen G. White.

The Bible is clear about the discipline and government of the church if people want to study it and follow it. The SDA church made up its mind a long time ago.

[Twilight]

I don't believe in membership but I do believe in leadership so that there is not chaos. Organization is important. Our prophet clearly states this.

So how do you get leadership if you do not have membership upon which to draw from?

[teresaq]

more counsel from egw,

The church is a Christian society, formed for the members composing it, that each member may enjoy the assistance of all the graces and talents of the other members, and the working of God upon them, according to their several gifts and abilities. The church is united in the holy bonds of fellowship in order that each member may be benefited by the influence of the other. All are to bind themselves to the covenant of love and harmony. The Christian principles and graces of the whole society of believers is to gather strength and force in harmonious action. Each believer is to be benefited and improved by the refining and transforming influence of the varied capabilities of the other members, that the things lacking in one may be more abundantly displayed in another. All the members are to draw together, that the church may become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men. {MR311 52.3}

The covenant of agreement in church membership is that each member would walk in the footsteps of Christ, that all will take His yoke upon them, and learn of Him who is meek and lowly of heart. Doing this, "Ye shall," saith the dear Saviour, "find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." {MR311 53.1}

Those who wear Christ's yoke will draw together. They will cultivate sympathy and forbearance, and in holy emulation will strive to show to others the tender sympathy and love of which they feel such great need themselves. He who is weak and inexperienced, although he is weak, may be strengthened by the more hopeful and by those of mature experience. Although the least of all, he is a stone that must shine in the building. He is a vital member of the organized body, united to Christ, the living head, and through Christ identified with all the excellencies of Christ's character so that the Saviour is not ashamed to call him brother. {MR311 53.2}

Why are believers formed into a church? Because by this means Christ would increase their usefulness in the world and strengthen their personal influence for good. In the church there is to be maintained a discipline which guards the rights of all and increases the sense of mutual dependence. God never designed that one man's mind and judgment should be a controlling power. He never designed that one man should rule and plan and devise without the careful and prayerful consideration of the whole body, in order that all may move in a sound, thorough, harmonious manner. {MR311 53.3}

Believers are to shine as lights in the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. A church, separate and distinct from the world, is in the estimation of heaven the greatest object in all the earth. The members are pledged to be separate from the world, consecrating their service to one Master, Jesus Christ. They are to reveal that they have chosen Christ as their leader. . . . The church is to be as God designed it should be, a representative of God's family in another world.--Letter 26, 1900 {MR311 53.4}

[Twilight]

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So a White Witch could walk into our church and say that the Holy Spirit wants her to be a leader and that would be ok?

Yes. That would be okay. We should praise God she is walking into our church. ANYone should be able to walk in off the street and request leadership. They would not be allowed to be in leadership. But praise God they are desiring this.

Why would they not be allowed leadership?

Are you not raising standards again?

You just stated that you would allow anyone to walk in of the street and be a member, as long as the Holy Spirit led.

Well in that case, why are you now denying this white witch, who is stating they are Holy Spirit led?

Do you have some "test" in mind, that would dis-qualify her for leadership?

Do you have some "standard" in mind that would dis-qualify her for leadership?

For you to reject her, once again, shows that you do have "standards" that you judge this person by...

[Woody]

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Mark: Are you a member of the SDA church by the way?

If you do not consider membership important, do you then just fellowship with SDA's?

I am a member and have been for 40 years. But I don't consider it to be necessary. And I find that it has it's problems. But the church has decided it's course and so I go along with it. I don't consider it a salvanic or important issue to fight over. We are just having a discussion of my feelings regarding membership.

So, in real life ... I support my church in membership. But I don't have to agree with each and every church manual issue. I just have to go along with the decision of the majority.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

re: "white witches" in the Adventist church: the book I'm editing relates several incidences of pastor's spouses practicing "white Magick" ... Adventists are sorely lacking insight into what is going on within the church -- the spiritual deceptions masquarading as mental, physical, or spiritual "help."

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Yes. That would be okay. We should praise God she is walking into our church. ANYone should be able to walk in off the street and request leadership.

Woody, does your pastor agree with you here?

I would be interested to know if other participants of the board-- such as Bravus, Tom, Teresaq (sda), CoAspen and Kevin-- agree that "anyone should be able to walk in off the street and request leadership" in the SDA church.

But of course it isn't a question of people being free to walk in off the street and make a request-- because people are free to make a request about anything-- but the question is whether it would be right to grant them leadership under those circumstances.

Are you suggesting that it would be OK for the church to grant leadership to people who simply walk in off the street and ask for it-- without requiring membership in the church and a period during which the person's character and leadership qualities are tested by experience and verified?

[Twilight]

The SDA church made up its mind a long time ago.

But maybe some want a revolution?

A liberal revolution on the one hand that throws all standards out the window (using "free love" as its basis).

Or a conservative revolution on the other hand that insists on a man made standard of rules (using "legalism" as its basis).

Thankfully, our church has found the inspired middle ground and both these "revolutions" will be repulsed, although it is goint to take persecution before the sifting is finally over.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Mark: Are you a member of the SDA church by the way?

If you do not consider membership important, do you then just fellowship with SDA's?

I am a member and have been for 40 years. But I don't consider it to be necessary. And I find that it has it's problems. But the church has decided it's course and so I go along with it. I don't consider it a salvanic or important issue to fight over. We are just having a discussion of my feelings regarding membership.

So, in real life ... I support my church in membership. But I don't have to agree with each and every church manual issue. I just have to go along with the decision of the majority.

Do you think we should scrap membership if you do not agree with it personally?

[Twilight]

re: "white witches" in the Adventist church: the book I'm editing relates several incidences of pastor's spouses practicing "white Magick" ... Adventists are sorely lacking insight into what is going on within the church -- the spiritual deceptions masquarading as mental, physical, or spiritual "help."

Do you have some examples you can quote on this?

The reason I ask, is that sometimes people can claim so and so is practicing this and that, when it is generally a mis-understanding.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

I don't believe in membership but I do believe in leadership so that there is not chaos. Organization is important. Our prophet clearly states this.

So how do you get leadership if you do not have membership upon which to draw from?

I am not sure why this is asked again ... but I will repeat the same answer.

Those who attend will vote. It's the same in our churches today. Those who attend on a particular Sabbath will vote. You call them members. But the vote is done by the raising of hands and no one is verifying whether those who raise their hands are members or not.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Unless anyone can be a leader in the church you envisage?

But how then would you pick leaders?

Would it be from passers by on the street?

Or would it be from an approved pool of members that are in the church already Woody?

It would be from any one who would wish to be a leader. Yes. It would be from anyone off the street or in the church. It would be as it is done now in our church. A simple vote. The Holy Spirit would be leading in the decision.

I am not sure how your proposed system would work?

Say the congregation was numbered as 25 people.

The White Witch would only need to bring 30 of her friends in on voting day.

Then they could all vote the White Witch in.

Is that the system you think we should adopt, that allows for this type of leader to gain power in an SDA church?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

So how do you get leadership if you do not have membership upon which to draw from?

I am not sure why this is asked again ... but I will repeat the same answer.

Those who attend will vote. It's the same in our churches today. Those who attend on a particular Sabbath will vote. You call them members. But the vote is done by the raising of hands and no one is verifying whether those who raise their hands are members or not.

So if 30 white witches attend on that Sabbath and there is only 55 people in the congregation in total, then your white witch could be accepted as a leader in the church?

[Twilight]

You are not exactly inspiring me with confidence in your new system here Woody!

:-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

So a White Witch could walk into our church and say that the Holy Spirit wants her to be a leader and that would be ok?

"White" witches do just that, whether you know it or not.

But in the scenario we are discussing with Woody, this is an open claim to leadership as long as she has the votes to back her up.

I suspect you are talking of a more covert activity perhaps?

[John317]

more counsel from egw,

The church is a Christian society, formed for the members composing it, that each member may enjoy the assistance of all the graces and talents of the other members, and the working of God upon them, according to their several gifts and abilities. The church is united in the holy bonds of fellowship in order that each member may be benefited by the influence of the other. All are to bind themselves to the covenant of love and harmony.

You gave a lot of quotes. Would you care to tell us your thoughts as to how those quotes speak to the issues under discussion here?

Question:

What if people in the church give evidence that they have not bound themselves to the covenant of love and harmony but are agitating for great changes in major positions of the church and refuse to listen to church leadership?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I don't have the manuscript in front of me - it has gone back to the author for revisions.

"White Magick" would include craniosacral therapy, Reiki, "healing touch," tai ch'i, Eastern style meditation involving imagery and vocal repetitions, iridology, use of "magic wands" for healing, use of pendulums, reflexology...all of these are being used within the Adventist community. It is documented in the manuscript.

The use of the name, "Jesus," repeated over and over again, as a meditative technique is a good example of a spiritual deception. It empties your mind, and you no longer are really thinking of Jesus; rather, you are allowing satanic influences to creep into the void.

It will be a controversial book...we know that many people will get their toes stepped on.

[Woody]

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Do you think we should scrap membership if you do not agree with it personally?

I have nothing to push. I am simply sharing my ideas and feelings. You should be able to voice whatever thoughts you have on the idea.

My idea of membership is different. If you want to call it membership ... fine. I would just have a different requirement for membership. I would allow anyone who wishes to fellowship with my church to be a member.

But just because a person is a member does not mean that they have the gift of the Spirit to be a leader. Discernment for leadership is important. If one of your 'members' believed that the Sabbath was not the 7th day ... they would not make a good leader. Some common sense would be applied for electing leaders. Call it what you want.

[Twilight]

But of course it isn't a question of people being free to walk in off the street and make a request-- because people are free to make a request about anything-- but the question is whether it would be right to grant them leadership under those circumstances.

Are you suggesting that it would be OK for the church to grant leadership to people who simply walk in off the street and ask for it-- without requiring membership in the church and a period during which the person's character and leadership qualities are tested by experience and verified?

And this is the heart of the discussion.

Those that have argued that we need no standards for membership, very soon come into a situation where they have no control over the church.

As the illustration of the exaggerated case of the "white witch" has shown.

The church has always operated an open fellowship.

But when those that fellowship do not actually uphold the representation of Christ that we as a church agree on, then they should not be granted membership.

Or membership should be removed, if they are unwilling to change their course.

They can of course have fellowship.

But membership is claiming a common goal.

A common gospel.

But if they are preaching a "different" Christ, as defined by the 28 fundamentals, then they should not be claiming membership or maintaining membership.

Fellowship yes.

Membership no.

If I did not agree with one of the 28 fundamentals, I would resign my membership immediately...