Membership of the SDA Church....

[Woody]

BTW ... if a church is not listening to leadership ... I would suppose that they should probably cease being affiliated with the SDA organization. No biggie. They should just form their own church organization.

[John317]

Those who attend will vote. It's the same in our churches today. Those who attend on a particular Sabbath will vote. You call them members. But the vote is done by the raising of hands and no one is verifying whether those who raise their hands are members or not.

Are you saying you believe that even people who don't love the church and may be actual enemies of the church and of Christ should be able to vote?

If anyone off the street could have a voice in governing the church, and determining doctrine, we would be a very foolish church. It wouldn't even be representative of the body of SDA believers.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

more counsel from egw,

The church is a Christian society, formed for the members composing it, that each member may enjoy the assistance of all the graces and talents of the other members, and the working of God upon them, according to their several gifts and abilities. The church is united in the holy bonds of fellowship in order that each member may be benefited by the influence of the other. All are to bind themselves to the covenant of love and harmony.

You gave a lot of quotes. Would you care to tell us your thoughts as to how those quotes speak to the issues under discussion here?

Question:

What if people in the church give evidence that they have not bound themselves to the covenant of love and harmony but are agitating for great changes in major positions of the church and refuse to listen to church leadership?

it was from a letter and rather self-explanatory, i thought.

perhaps you could show how your question ties in with what ellen white was asking us to do?

[Twilight]

Quote:

Do you think we should scrap membership if you do not agree with it personally?

I have nothing to push. I am simply sharing my ideas and feelings. You should be able to voice whatever thoughts you have on the idea.

My idea of membership is different. If you want to call it membership ... fine. I would just have a different requirement for membership. I would allow anyone who wishes to fellowship with my church to be a member.

But just because a person is a member does not mean that they have the gift of the Spirit to be a leader. Discernment for leadership is important. If one of your 'members' believed that the Sabbath was not the 7th day ... they would not make a good leader. Some common sense would be applied for electing leaders. Call it what you want.

So your standard for leadership from your "members" is that they have the gift of the Spirit.

There are Catholics and Pentecostals that claim they are filled with the Spirit.

Would you allow them to lead your church and teach the error they believe?

After all, they meet your criteria don't they?

[John317]

BTW ... if a church is not listening to leadership ... I would suppose that they should probably cease being affiliated with the SDA organization. No biggie. They should just form their own church organization.

And if they don't but instead persist in rejecting the voice of leadership and of the church body-- what then?

[Woody]

Quote:

Or membership should be removed

Best to just not have class warfare and just drop membership for all. That way you are all on an equal playing field.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: John317

it was from a letter and rather self-explanatory, i thought.

perhaps you could show how your question ties in with what ellen white was asking us to do? [/quote']

I did not find it self explanatory.

I agree with John317.

You should explain what you think the pertinant points to the discussion are.

It was a lot of information that could be directed in many different ways.

It is helpful when people explain why they have referenced a quote.

Otherwise it just looks like quote spamming (sorry if that sounds offensive).

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

BTW ... if a church is not listening to leadership ... I would suppose that they should probably cease being affiliated with the SDA organization. No biggie. They should just form their own church organization.

And if they don't but instead persist in rejecting the voice of leadership and of the church body-- what then?

The church has and should take them to court to remove the name Seventh day Adventist from their church name. That is if they have been approached and refuse to comply.

[Woody]

Quote:

I did not find it self explanatory.

I agree with John317.

You should explain what you think the pertinant points to the discussion are.

It was a lot of information that could be directed in many different ways.

It is helpful when people explain why they have referenced a quote.

Otherwise it just looks like quote spamming (sorry if that sounds offensive).

This may blow you away ... but I do respectfully agree. And I hope and expect that teresa will do this. Suppose we just need to be patient.

[Twilight]

I don't have the manuscript in front of me - it has gone back to the author for revisions.

"White Magick" would include craniosacral therapy, Reiki, "healing touch," tai ch'i, Eastern style meditation involving imagery and vocal repetitions, iridology, use of "magic wands" for healing, use of pendulums, reflexology...all of these are being used within the Adventist community. It is documented in the manuscript.

The use of the name, "Jesus," repeated over and over again, as a meditative technique is a good example of a spiritual deception. It empties your mind, and you no longer are really thinking of Jesus; rather, you are allowing satanic influences to creep into the void.

It will be a controversial book...we know that many people will get their toes stepped on.

I read an excellent book many years ago on the subject of a Queen Witch in England.

Adventist book, very interesting.

I know what you say is true, we had a beloved member that was practicing some strange healing techniques that ended up leaving and joining a pentecostal fellowship.

One of the reasons was that she did not appreciate some of our standards.

We are still trying to win her back, but it is difficult when they get involved in the New Age.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Those who attend will vote. It's the same in our churches today. Those who attend on a particular Sabbath will vote. You call them members. But the vote is done by the raising of hands and no one is verifying whether those who raise their hands are members or not.

Are you saying you believe that even people who don't love the church and may be actual enemies of the church and of Christ should be able to vote?

this would be going on the assumption that the sda church does not already have this...

i believe Jesus called them tares,

Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

and here He called them fishes,

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

[John317]

it was from a letter and rather self-explanatory, i thought.

Based on your posts in the past, I somehow had a feeling this would be your response.

Just because a paragraph is clear doesn't mean the significance of the paragraph is clear in relationship to the discussion.

I am asking how you view the paragraphs in terms of the question of membership in the church.

[Woody]

Quote:

So your standard for leadership from your "members" is that they have the gift of the Spirit.

There are Catholics and Pentecostals that claim they are filled with the Spirit.

Would you allow them to lead your church and teach the error they believe?

After all, they meet your criteria don't they?

God's Leadership in HIS Church ... would never allow this Mark.

[Twilight]

BTW ... if a church is not listening to leadership ... I would suppose that they should probably cease being affiliated with the SDA organization. No biggie. They should just form their own church organization.

So how does that spread the 3 angels message?

You have a church that has no membership.

It selects leadership based on claims to be be Spirit Led.

Then if it starts to practice different standards that the general church has not specified (using your own argument that we shouldn't have standards).

It should be allowed to go off and do its own thing.

And are you presenting this as something preferable to the present system we have?

[John317]

perhaps you could show how your question ties in with what ellen white was asking us to do?

Ellen White said, "The Redeemer of the world does not sanction experience and exercise in religious matters independent of His organized and acknowledged church, where He has a church." 3 T 433

"The word of God does not give license for one man to set up his judgment in opposition to the judgment of the church, neither is he allowed to urge his opinion against the opinions of the church. If there were no church discipline and government, the church would go to fragments; it could not hold together as a body." 3 T 428

Do you agree with those statements?

What we need to do is be willing to submit our ideas and opinions to the Bible and the Spirit of prophey. If we do that, there will be agreement on this matter. If we don't, it will be every person for himself, and it will be chaos and confusion.

The Devil would like nothing better than for the church to go to fragments and not hold together as a body, as Ellen White said would happen without church discipline and government. Such would only lead the SDA church to be a church of confusion, which is exactly what characterizes Babylon. Let's listen and obey what God's prophet for these last days has written on this topic.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: John317

And if they don't but instead persist in rejecting the voice of leadership and of the church body-- what then?

The church has and should take them to court to remove the name Seventh day Adventist from their church name. That is if they have been approached and refuse to comply.

Another standard you are now imposing Woody?

Don't you think it interesting, that in your search for a standardless church, you end up applying all of these standards?

[Woody]

this would be going on the assumption that the sda church does not already have this...

i believe Jesus called them tares,

Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

and here He called them fishes,

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Excellent teresa. They think their beloved "membership" protects them. But it does not.

[Twilight]

Quote:

I did not find it self explanatory.

I agree with John317.

You should explain what you think the pertinant points to the discussion are.

It was a lot of information that could be directed in many different ways.

It is helpful when people explain why they have referenced a quote.

Otherwise it just looks like quote spamming (sorry if that sounds offensive).

This may blow you away ... but I do respectfully agree. And I hope and expect that teresa will do this. Suppose we just need to be patient.

[John317]

So a White Witch could walk into our church and say that the Holy Spirit wants her to be a leader and that would be ok?

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

"White" witches do just that, whether you know it or not.

Do you believe there should be any attempt to determine who they are and prevent them from being a leader in the church? Should White Witches be allowed to teach in the church or to be a pastor or elder, for instance?

[Twilight]

Quote:

So your standard for leadership from your "members" is that they have the gift of the Spirit.

There are Catholics and Pentecostals that claim they are filled with the Spirit.

Would you allow them to lead your church and teach the error they believe?

After all, they meet your criteria don't they?

God's Leadership in HIS Church ... would never allow this Mark.

Really?

What makes you say that?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

this would be going on the assumption that the sda church does not already have this...

i believe Jesus called them tares,

Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

and here He called them fishes,

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Excellent teresa. They think their beloved "membership" protects them. But it does not.

So you propose a free for all?

Where the white witch takes the whole congregation off as her own new denomination?

:-)

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

BTW ... if a church is not listening to leadership ... I would suppose that they should probably cease being affiliated with the SDA organization. No biggie. They should just form their own church organization.

So how does that spread the 3 angels message?

You have a church that has no membership.

It selects leadership based on claims to be be Spirit Led.

Then if it starts to practice different standards that the general church has not specified (using your own argument that we shouldn't have standards).

It should be allowed to go off and do its own thing.

And are you presenting this as something preferable to the present system we have?

Mark. There must be order. But my issue with membership is that we use it as a club to hit people over the head and judge their individual sins and behaviours. We create a class system. We have some people who attend who are 'better' than others with labels such as members. When all who attend should be equal.

Now when it comes to leadership ... different rules apply. We must have order. Our beliefs must be preserved or evolve as a concensus.

[Woody]

Quote:

Where the white witch takes the whole congregation off as her own new denomination?

If the people believe in the white witch they should be free to wonder off and have their own denomination. YES. Now you get it.

Hey ... we're making progress.

[John317]

So your standard for leadership from your "members" is that they have the gift of the Spirit.

There are Catholics and Pentecostals that claim they are filled with the Spirit.

Would you allow them to lead your church and teach the error they believe?

After all, they meet your criteria don't they?

Originally Posted By: Woody

God's Leadership in HIS Church ... would never allow this Mark.

God will not prevent men's actions from have serious and negative consequences. He's allowed all kinds of things to happen, including the fall of the Old Testament church. If the SDA church made such a foolish decision as to reject all the guidance that God has given it through the Bible and His prophet, you can be sure He wouldn't stand in the way and prevent their rejection of Him from leading to very tragic consequences. This is a pattern that God has shown all through history.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

So how does that spread the 3 angels message?

You have a church that has no membership.

It selects leadership based on claims to be be Spirit Led.

Then if it starts to practice different standards that the general church has not specified (using your own argument that we shouldn't have standards).

It should be allowed to go off and do its own thing.

And are you presenting this as something preferable to the present system we have?

Mark. There must be order. But my issue with membership is that we use it as a club to hit people over the head and judge their individual sins and behaviours. We create a class system. We have some people who attend who are 'better' than others with labels such as members. When all who attend should be equal.

Now when it comes to leadership ... different rules apply. We must have order. Our beliefs must be preserved or evolve as a concensus.

I agree that we should not impose standards for membership beyond the biblical standards that we have agreed on as a church.

No one has argued that.

But the bible does lay out conditions, which our church for all its flaws has adopted.

There are those that want to impose their standards, I have been a victim of that, so understand how painful that is.

But we are not talking about imposing legalistic requirements that are not biblical on people.

What we are talking about is "gospel order" that the Bible gives us.