Membership of the SDA Church....

[teresaq]

JESUS is the standard. We are judged by HIS behaviour ... not our own. We are saved by HIS works. Not our own. Jesus is the First and the Last. It's ALL about JESUS. Man made "standards" like the Jews made ... are NOT our salvation. JESUS IS.

THIS is the Jesus I would like to introduce you to.

[Twilight]

But not sorry enough to explain it?

:-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

So you do have standards then Woody?

You don't think legalism should be preached from the pulpits?

So do you think this "legalistic" Jesus should be allowed to be represented to Gods people?

I do not by the way...

Who preaches is decided by leadership. I prefer not to listen to legalists. But in some areas and churches ... this is done. I just simply avoid those churches and organizations within our church. But they are certainly entitled to do as they wish.

So you wouldn't have a problem then with an SDA church teaching people that we burn in hell forever?

[Woody]

Quote:

So you wouldn't have a problem then with an SDA church teaching people that we burn in hell forever?

I am trying to say that teachings against my/our beliefs are taught in our churches each and every Sabbath. And I am referring specifically to legalism. And legalism is contrary to our beliefs. So, it would not surprise me to hear a sermon stating that people burn in Hell forever. Yes, that also is contrary to our beliefs. But, I would simply ask leadership to not invite this person again .... avoid church when this person preaches or simply go to another church.

Membership does not ensure correct doctrine being preached. And it is not needed.

[Twilight]

It seems some are arguing that we should not impose standards on the church members and congregations.

That being the case, it does not matter what is presented to the world.

It doesn't matter if we present untruths about the character of Jesus.

It doesn't matter, as long as we share "Jesus".

Really?

Isn't there a couple of commandments about that?

Exd 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Exd 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.

If we do not represent Christ accurately to the world in our teachings, are we not guilty before God.

So Yes.

We need to have standards.

To say no, is to argue that it is okay to represent any Jesus to the world as "truth".

[Woody]

You are free to present YOUR Jesus that you think is biblical. And the Baptist is free to present who THEY think Jesus is. Both groups will have people who are saved.

[Twilight]

Quote:

So you wouldn't have a problem then with an SDA church teaching people that we burn in hell forever?

I would simply ask leadership to not invite this person again.

So you would try to keep someone out of the church that did not agree with what you hold to be valid truths then...

What you have just done here, is erected a standard.

Then policed that standard.

Not based on whether that persons heart was right with God.

But based on their doctrine.

So if you will do this here, why is it wrong for the church to do it in a broader sense?

[Woody]

Quote:

"So you would try to keep someone out of the church that did not agree with what you hold to be valid truths then"

Your premise is entire wrong and inaccurate. You have misrepresented me and my beliefs.

I would never "try to keep someone out of the church" that I did not agree with.

I hope this makes it clear.

[Twilight]

You are free to present YOUR Jesus that you think is biblical. And the Baptist is free to present who THEY think Jesus is. Both groups will have people who are saved.

No one disagrees with this Woody as far as I am aware.

But I am not trying to present the Baptist view of Jesus.

If I was, I would join the Baptist church.

I am presenting the SDA view of Jesus, as far as I am capable.

Now do you think it would be okay for you to join the Baptist church and then start teaching SDA doctrines whilst pretending to be a Baptist.

Would you do that?

[Twilight]

Quote:

"So you would try to keep someone out of the church that did not agree with what you hold to be valid truths then"

Your premise is entire wrong and inaccurate. You have misrepresented me and my beliefs.

I would never "try to keep someone out of the church" that I did not agree with.

I hope this makes it clear.

[Woody]

Quote:

Now do you think it would be okay for you to join the Baptist church and then start teaching SDA doctrines whilst pretending to be a Baptist.

Would you do that?

No one is saying this. But if I did ... I should be asked to not preach. However ... I should be free to continue being in their fellowship. No membership is needed here to do that. We all see things a little differently. Tolerance is needed. And we should be free to disagree.

[Woody]

Quote:

But you just stated that you would speak to the Leaders and ask them not to invite the speaker again

Perhaps you are not understanding. I meant to not invite them to preach again. I was not saying they could not attend the church.

[Twilight]

So it can be clearly seen Woody, that you do in fact hold some standards to be important when it comes to the message being preached in the church.

So how then can you claim some standards but reject the idea of others also using standards to govern the church and its membership?

Surely that is a contradiction?

[Twilight]

Quote:

But you just stated that you would speak to the Leaders and ask them not to invite the speaker again

Perhaps you are not understanding. I meant to not invite them to preach again. I was not saying they could not attend the church.

I understand that.

I am not claiming you would not welcome them into the church.

But it is clear that you would use your influence to try to control them having a speaking opportunity in a church.

So you have just established a standard.

[Woody]

Quote:

So you would try to keep someone out of the church that did not agree with what you hold to be valid truths then...

Again ... I've never stated that someone should be kept out of church as you have indicated. I stated I would prefer them to not be invited to preach beliefs contrary to our church.

This happens every Sabbath. Someone in the world is preaching things contrary to our beliefs. If you witness this ... you should approach leadership and express your concern.

[Woody]

So it can be clearly seen Woody, that you do in fact hold some standards to be important when it comes to the message being preached in the church.

So how then can you claim some standards but reject the idea of others also using standards to govern the church and its membership?

Surely that is a contradiction?

I don't believe in membership. And I don't hold members to standards. I simply prefer not to hear "beliefs" contrary to our church's "Beliefs". So, I would simply express my desires to leadership.

[Twilight]

Just to be clear.

No one is arguing that we should not make anyone welcome who desires to come to one of our churches.

Not one single person has made that point.

But to allow someone influence in the church, when they do not represent the same Jesus as generally held by the SDA church as defined in its fundamentals, is to allow someone who does not agree with the Jesus the SDA church is presenting to the world.

Obviously everyone sees things slightly differently, but the broad 28 fundamentals are all important and should be the framework for our gospel of Jesus Christ.

As they are all fundamental to representing Christ's character correctly.

To throw one of them out, or to allow someone full membership when they do not agree with them, can only result in confusion surely?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

So it can be clearly seen Woody, that you do in fact hold some standards to be important when it comes to the message being preached in the church.

So how then can you claim some standards but reject the idea of others also using standards to govern the church and its membership?

Surely that is a contradiction?

I don't believe in membership. And I don't hold members to standards. I simply prefer not to hear "beliefs" contrary to our church's "Beliefs". So, I would simply express my desires to leadership.

But you have just expressed a standard.

You have a preference to only hear a certain representation of Christ from the pulpit, that you believe agrees with the church doctrines.

By having that and then indicating you would act on that, you have not only expressed a standard, but you have also specified how you would seek to have the standard upheld.

And if you do not believe in membership, why are you asking other members to police your standard for you in this example?

If you had no members, who would you be asking to deal with this?

Without members, you would have no leaders.

And without leaders, you would not be able to raise your objection.

So I disagree, you have stated "standards" and implied "membership" constraints by your very proposed action in this scenario.

[John317]

(quoting): "Let busybodies and accusers be visited and rebuked. If after thorough labor, they do not hold their tongues in check, they should be suspended from church membership." --Manuscript 43a, 1898, pp. 12-14. (Written March 22, 1898, "The Laborer Is Worthy of His Hire.") {15MR 163.2}

Originally Posted By: Woody

I wonder if the same thing applies to Forums?

I think it would be good if we consider what Ellen White said in 3 T 424-434. Have you read it? If so, what do you think of it?

Ellen White said, "The Redeemer of the world does not sanction experience and exercise in religious matters independent of His organized and acknowledged church, where He has a church." 3 T 433

"The word of God does not give license for one man to set up his judgment in opposition to the judgment of the church, neither is he allowed to urge his opinion against the opinions of the church. If there were no church discipline and government, the church would go to fragments; it could not hold together as a body." 3 T 428

What we need to do is be willing to submit our ideas and opinions to the Bible and the Spirit of prophey. If we do that, there will be agreement on this matter. If we don't, it will be every person for himself, and it will be chaos and confusion.

The Devil would like nothing better than for the church to go to fragments and not hold together as a body, as Ellen White said would happen without church discipline and government. Such would only lead the SDA church to be a church of confusion, which is exactly what characterizes Babylon. Let's listen and obey what God's prophet for these last days has written on this topic.

[Twilight]

Unless anyone can be a leader in the church you envisage?

But how then would you pick leaders?

Would it be from passers by on the street?

Or would it be from an approved pool of members that are in the church already Woody?

[Woody]

Quote:

Mark: "So you would try to keep someone out of the church that did not agree with what you hold to be valid truths then"

Quote:

Mark: "I am not claiming you would not welcome them into the church."keep someone out of the church"

Well then ... I am totally confused now.

[Woody]

Unless anyone can be a leader in the church you envisage?

But how then would you pick leaders?

Would it be from passers by on the street?

Or would it be from an approved pool of members that are in the church already Woody?

It would be from any one who would wish to be a leader. Yes. It would be from anyone off the street or in the church. It would be as it is done now in our church. A simple vote. The Holy Spirit would be leading in the decision.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Now do you think it would be okay for you to join the Baptist church and then start teaching SDA doctrines whilst pretending to be a Baptist.

Would you do that?

No one is saying this. But if I did ... I should be asked to not preach. However ... I should be free to continue being in their fellowship. No membership is needed here to do that. We all see things a little differently. Tolerance is needed. And we should be free to disagree.

No one is discussing fellowship.

We are discussing membership.

That is a totally different issue.

So do you think it would be right to join the Baptist Church as a member, when you do not share their beliefs and then share your beliefs from the pulpit?

[Twilight]

Quote:

Mark: "So you would try to keep someone out of the church that did not agree with what you hold to be valid truths then"

Quote:

Mark: "I am not claiming you would not welcome them into the church."keep someone out of the church"

Well then ... I am totally confused now.

Then you need to read my clarifications throughout this thread.

But just so you can be sure.

We are discussing membership in the church.

Not fellowship extended to anyone that wants it.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Unless anyone can be a leader in the church you envisage?

But how then would you pick leaders?

Would it be from passers by on the street?

Or would it be from an approved pool of members that are in the church already Woody?

It would be from any one who would wish to be a leader. Yes. It would be from anyone off the street or in the church. It would be as it is done now in our church. A simple vote. The Holy Spirit would be leading in the decision.

So a White Witch could walk into our church and say that the Holy Spirit wants her to be a leader and that would be ok?