"SDAs should worship Allah"

[John317]

Name the churches and the canons they use.

Originally Posted By: SivartM

There is a list at the link that I posted.

Yes, I looked at it. I'm aware of those things. What did you want to point out particularly?

Originally Posted By: John3:17

But who cares what all the other churches do? If you find that they have greater or better truth than the SDA church, I would encourge you to study their truths and adopt them if you honestly believe them.

Originally Posted By: SivartM

My point was not that a different canon is better than the Protestant canon; my point was that there is no universal Scripture. As you have said, the reason you reject other books is because they disagree with what you already think.

Of course there is no universal scripture. No one said there is. In fact, if you study world religions, you will find that there are many more "holy books" and "canons."

But again, so what?

The Mormons accept Joseph Smith as their canon and Scripture. Joseph Smith corrected the KJV and made his "Inspired Translation."

The Buddhists have their holy books, as do the Hindus and the Muslims. Does that mean they are inspired of God? How can you tell? And can anyone be sure sure of whether those things are inspired or not? Is it possible-- perhaps even probable-- that the SDA church is following the wrong teachings and that we should be following the God of the Qur'an and praying 5 days a week toward Mecca and attending Mosque on Friday?

What do you think? Do you have any convictions about this?

[John317]

...To say and assume that there can ONLY be one inspired Holy Book is like saying, "i will only pick and choose the verses that corresponds to MY worldview. The rest are demonic."

Do you believe the Bible is inspired by God?

Do you believe the Qur'an is inspired by the same God who inspired the Bible?

I'm asking if you believe everthing the Qur'an teaches. Remember that Muhammad said that he didn't write any of it but that they are the very words dictated to him by the angel Gabriel who spoke only the words of Allah. Thus, according to Muslims, the Qur'an gives the very words of God, and is the most perfect book to lead you to the truth. It is "a book whereof there is no doubt."

[SivartM]

Of course there is no universal scripture. No one said there is. In fact, if you study world religions, you will find that there are many more "holy books" and "canons."

But again, so what?

The Mormons accept Joseph Smith as their canon and Scripture. Joseph Smith corrected the KJV and made his "Insspired Translation."

The Buddhists have their holy books, as do the Hindus and the Muslims. Does that mean they are inspired of God? How can you tell? And can anyone be sure sure of whether those things are inspired or not? Is it possible-- perhaps even probable-- that the SDA church is following the wrong teachings and that we should be following the God of the Qur'an and praying 5 days a week toward Mecca and attending Mosque on Friday?

What do you think? Do you have any convictions about this?

I'm talking about Christian scriptures. Buddhism is irrelevant. Mormonism is not really related because its additional works are in a third testament that has never been accepted into the canons of other Christian denominations.

Again, my point has nothing to do with whether any scripture is true. My point is that "Sola Scriptura" is more complex than people say. You first have to decide which version of the Christian scripture that you will build your belief system on. Someone raised in a Protestant background would most likely not seriously consider other canons, if they ever learned about them at all. It is certainly possible that the Qur'an is true; that could be as likely as the Protestant scriptures being true. If one does not consider truth to be limited to exact historical and theological accuracy, then they could both be true. But there is no way to actually know if any of them are true.

[Dr. Shane]

I really don't think Sola Scriptura is complex at all. The Protestant Bible contains all the revelation needed for God to direct one to the Truth that leads to salvation. I am sure there have been many *minor* prophets since the days of the apostles. I have little doubt there are inspired writings that have been written outside of what is accepted as the Protestant Bible. However God doesn't need any of those writings to direct us to the Truth that leads to salvation. Certainly the hand of God was involved in the compilation of the 66 books of the Bible so that no needed truth was left out of it.

The reason God called Ellen White to ministry was to point men and women back to the Bible. I believe this is the same reason other extra-Biblical prophets were called to ministry as well. The Bible is enough.

Sola Scriptura is the belief that the Bible is to be the only rule of faith and it is to interpret itself. It is a very basic belief. We don't need Ellen White or any other *minor* (extra-Biblical) prophet. We don't need a priest. We don't need the pope. All we need is the Bible. That is Sola Scriptura.

[LifeHiscost]

Sola Scriptura is the belief that the Bible is to be the only rule of faith and it is to interpret itself. It is a very basic belief. We don't need Ellen White or any other *minor* (extra-Biblical) prophet. We don't need a priest. We don't need the pope. All we need is the Bible. That is Sola Scriptura.

"...for as I was walking along I saw your many shrines. And one of your altars had this inscription on it: ‘To an Unknown God.’ This God, whom you worship without knowing, is the one I’m telling you about."Acts 17:23 NLT

No argument here was raised about whether or not the objects of present worship were true or false. The Truth was presented. Would this not be a principle worthy of emulating when presenting Jesus before whomever we have opportunity to give witness to?

What think ye?

God blesses!!

[antcreations]

Originally Posted By: antcreations

...To say and assume that there can ONLY be one inspired Holy Book is like saying, "i will only pick and choose the verses that corresponds to MY worldview. The rest are demonic."

Do you believe the Bible is inspired by God?

Do you believe the Qur'an is inspired by the same God who inspired the Bible?

I'm asking if you believe everthing the Qur'an teaches. Remember that Muhammad said that he didn't write any of it but that they are the very words dictated to him by the angel Gabriel who spoke only the words of Allah. Thus, according to Muslims, the Qur'an are the very words of God, the most perfect book to lead you to the truth. It is "a book whereof there is no doubt."

john. until we agree on hermeneutical principles in interpreting "inspiration" --- i will choose not to add more to this thread.

i find some statements in this thread plainly discouraging and doesn't help further our church's dialogue with our Muslim brothers and sisters through AMR (Adventist Muslim Relations).

[LifeHiscost]

It is certainly possible that the Qur'an is true; that could be as likely as the Protestant scriptures being true. If one does not consider truth to be limited to exact historical and theological accuracy, then they could both be true. But there is no way to actually know if any of them are true.

If this above is a statement of belief it would appear that in the description of an unbeliever as found in the Holy Bible, it describes an unbeliever.

God blesses!!

[LifeHiscost]

The book of Enoch is quoted in the New Testament, 1 Kings 22:22 says that angels of God lie.

Somehow I don't believe this was read in context and I definitely

don't believe the book of Enoch is part of the Word given by God. From what source did this come from, perhaps from the same place as the book of Hezekiah?

God blesses!

[John317]

...Again, my point has nothing to do with whether any scripture is true. My point is that "Sola Scriptura" is more complex than people say.

People can make anything complex if they want to. But whether "Sola Scriptura" can be made to seem complex or not doesn't deny the truthfulness and validity of the Protestant Bible.

Are you prepared to argue that Seventh-day Adventists ought to accept a different canon of Scripture?

Originally Posted By: SivartM

You first have to decide which version of the Christian scripture that you will build your belief system on.

Yes, I have done that.

But what do you mean by "version"? When it comes to the Bible, "version" usually has reference to translation. Do you mean which "canon"?

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Someone raised in a Protestant background would most likely not seriously consider other canons, if they ever learned about them at all.

I don't know about what is "most likely," but speaking for myself, I've been interested in all the world religions since I was in my late teens, and I studied them in college and have continued to study them for the last 30 years or so.

Originally Posted By: SivartM

It is certainly possible that the Qur'an is true;

What do you mean "possible"? Do you mean theoretically possible? Of course it is theoretically possible. It is theoretically possible for almost any religion to be true.

But why do you believe it is possible that it is true? Have you studied it?

Or are you merely conjecturing and talking about something of which you yourself have no personal knowledge or firm conviction?

Originally Posted By: SivartM

that could be as likely as the Protestant scriptures being true.

Again, do you meant it is possible in the abstract?

How do you arrive at this conclusion?

Do you believe in the Protestant scriptures? If so, why?

What would convince you that you should believe and accept the Muslim scriptures as the truth of God?

Originally Posted By: SivartM

If one does not consider truth to be limited to exact historical and theological accuracy, then they could both be true. But there is no way to actually know if any of them are true.

It seems to me you are saying that there is no way to actually know if Christ is true or false. Is this what you are saying?

Do you believe it is possible for two sources that contradict each other in many significant ways to be equally from God? For instance, do you believe it is credible that God would inspire Hebrew prophets to write that Christ is the Son of God and Deity who died on the cross for sinners, and then for the same God to inspire other prophets to write that Christ was merely a man who did not die on the cross?

[John317]

...john. until we agree on hermeneutical principles in interpreting "inspiration" --- i will choose not to add more to this thread.

i find some statements in this thread plainly discouraging and doesn't help further our church's dialogue with our Muslim brothers and sisters through AMR (Adventist Muslim Relations).

What are your principles?

I am talking here about what is true in regard to the Qur'an. I'm not addressing the issue of how to talk to Muslims about the Qur'an. Those are two different topics.

I'm not interested in political correctness. I despise political correctness because (I believe) it often leads people to lie and be dishonest with language and ideas. I'm interested in truth and only in truth. If that means causing someone to be offended, then so be it. I don't purposely offend anyone but if the truth offends, then better to offend than to lie or suppress the truth.

When it comes to discussing the Bible with the Muslims, I believe in emphasizing our common values and beliefs. I have close Muslim friends, and I don't tell them that the Qur'an is of Satan because I know that it would only cause them to shut their minds to anything else I might say. I also believe it is our job to open the Bible to them and it is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict them that the Qur'an is false and the Bible is true. So I leave it up to God to convict them of the truth or falsity of the gospel and of the Qur'an.

However, here on the Forum, I am not talking primarily to Muslims. I'm talking mainly to fellow Seventh-day Adventists and other Christians. As SDAs and Christians, we need to know what we believe about the Qur'an and why we believe it. Away with political correctness! We want the truth about these things. We can only arrive at the truth of these matters by studying both the Bible and the Qur'an and comparing them closely. We can't arrive at the truth about the Bible and the Qur'an by suppressing truth for the sake of making people feel good. Let's look at both these books and not be afraid to talk honestly about them and about what they actually say and teach. One thing is for sure, we can't talk to Muslims about the Bible and the Qur'an if we haven't studied them both for ourselves, thoroughly and completely honestly.

[aldona]

This whole discussion comes back to the Biblical teaching of the Trinity. Muslims reject the concept of the Trinity. When we speak of the Muslim God and claim that it is the same God as the Christians and Jews worship, well,,, we have to say that rather loosely. We all claim to worship the Creator. And we all claim to worship the God of Abraham. However the Biblical concept of God is much different than the Muslim concept of God.

There are quite a number of Christians (including some Adventists) who reject the idea of a Trinity.

Shall we say that they are also worshipping a different God?

If a group of people profess to worship the God of Abraham who created heaven and earth, who are we to insist that they do not worship Who they claim to?

The Jewish people also reject the idea of a Trinity, believing that the Creator God of Abraham is One, and yet we do not have pages and pages of argument on these forums trying to prove that the Jews worship a different God.

AJ

[Dr. Shane]

There are quite a number of Christians (including some Adventists) who reject the idea of a Trinity.

Let's remember the context of this thread. We are responding to a comment Dwight Nelson made regarding the belief in Allah. Since Dwight Nelson is one of the Adventist's most known pastors, what he says can easily be taken by non-Adventists to represent what the church believes. The question is if Pastor Nelson is correct. So on that basis, it doesn't matter what other Christian denominations believe but rather what the Adventist church believes based on its application of Sola Scriptura.

The details of how the Trinity works and its precise definition are certainly not agreed on among Adventists. However the general concept of the Trinity is accepted by Adventists. It is part of our Fundamental Belief #2.

[Dr. Shane]

If a group of people profess to worship the God of Abraham who created heaven and earth, who are we to insist that they do not worship Who they claim to?

It really comes down to what Pastor Nelson is trying to say. Indeed, I think most will agree, that the God the Muslims and Jews *claim* to worship is the same God that Christians *claim* to worship. Of course, a husband that beats his wife can *claim* to love her as much as a husband that demonstrates only altruistic love for his wife. So what is Pastor Nelson really saying? Is he just talking about the *claim* made by Muslims or is he talking about the actual character of the Muslim god as being the same as the character of the Christian God?

[John317]

There are quite a number of Christians (including some Adventists) who reject the idea of a Trinity.

Shall we say that they are also worshipping a different God?

Those other groups are Christians, meaning that they acknowledge that Christ is the Son of God and that He had pre-existence in heaven, that He is divine, and that He died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins. These are things the Qur'an denies and therefore Muslims generally do not believe them.

Originally Posted By: aldona

If a group of people profess to worship the God of Abraham who created heaven and earth, who are we to insist that they do not worship Who they claim to?

The Bible explicitly teaches that Christ made the heavens and the earth. The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit were all involved in the creation. The Qur'an denies this and says that only one person, Allah, made the heavens and the earth.

Therefore, despite the Muslim claim to worship the same God as we find in the Bible-- the God of Abraham-- the claim is not true because the God they worship is not the God that the Bible describes.

Originally Posted By: aldona

The Jewish people also reject the idea of a Trinity, believing that the Creator God of Abraham is One, and yet we do not have pages and pages of argument on these forums trying to prove that the Jews worship a different God.

That is because they worship the God of the Bible, which is Yahweh. The Jews simply do not know that the Messiah was known by the name Yahweh in the Old Testament. The Jews accept the Old Testament, and the while the Trinity is more developed in the New Testament, it is also found in the Old.

Muslims are different in this respect because the Qur'an not only denies the Trinity but it also denies that Christ is divine and lived with God in heaven before being born on this earth and that He died on the cross to save human beings.

[John317]

The Noble Qur'an is just as inspired as the Judeo-Christian Bible is.

If it is just as inspired, are you ready and willing to accept it as authoritatively as you do the Bible?

If so, you are going to have to make up your mind whether you will believe what the Qur'an teaches or whether you will believe what the Bible teaches, because they contradict each other in some very significant ways. Can anyone believe that Christ was just an apostle of Allah and that He was not the son of God--- yet at the same time believe that Christ was the Son of God and that He was divine from eternity?

What is your explanation for this contradition? Why would the true, living God-- who cannot lie-- reveal these two totally different views of Christ?

[John317]

I Killed Jesus. He died in my stead

OK, I understand that viewpoint, but the question is where can this idea that anybody killed Christ be found in the Qur'an?

The Qur'an says that Christ was not killed or executed on the cross but that it only appeared that way to the Jews.

Yet the Bible teaches clearly that it was the Jews and the Romans who killed Christ. It does not deny that they killed and crucified the Lord.

Examples of the Bible's testimony:

Acts 10:39

And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree,

Acts 2:22-23

"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— [23] this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 2:36

Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

Acts 3:14-15

But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, [15] and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.

[John317]

...It really comes down to what Pastor Nelson is trying to say. ....So what is Pastor Nelson really saying? Is he just talking about the *claim* made by Muslims or is he talking about the actual character of the Muslim god as being the same as the character of the Christian God?

I agree that this is the crucial point to be clarified insofar as Pastor Nelson is concerned.

It seems to be fairly well known that the claim is made. There is no disputing that the name "Allah" means "God". The entire question is whether the character of "Allah" and the God of the Bible is the same.

[Guest truthseeker007]

John317, i can feel that we are on the same level. Thanks for keeping the flames of truth alive. I agree with everything you have stated. I can t believe how SDA's think that Islam is coming from the same God as the God of the bible. The bible is a perfect guide for a quality life in truth on this earth. The God of the islam wants to rule by opression. This is the main different characateristic between God and satan. God wants to be worshipped by free will, he wants to elevate peoples ' mental and physical capabilities. Satan his style of ruling is obvious. Crucifying christ, his people etc. Satan is an opressor, 'worship me or else...".

I really cannot understand that so called christians believe that islam is coming from the same God as the bible. For if you have basic background information about the battle between satan and God, how can you possibly deny Christ. For Christians Christ is everything, that s why we are called CHRISTians, and not apostolians like the muslims wants us to believe. Christ is God and he is the only way into heaven. His character is so great that even if we would all go to hell, we should still worship Christ in truth and be willing to die for Him, because we all are unworthy sinners, only God is good.

So yes, Islam is a tricky deception coming from satan. So called christians who deny christ by believing in Islam, rather trust on their own human man-like rationalisations, rather than believing in Christ. For you my advice: become like little children, don t be deceived by your own wisdom, which is nothing compared to the wisdom of Christ. Listen to Christ his words, hasn t he demonstrated enough wisdom and authority to show mankind that he is more than an apostle. Look at the fruits of true christianity. Everywhere in the world were people believe in the bible there is peace and prosperity. Compare this to islamic nations where the principle of rule by opression has suppressed the mental health and prosperity of it s citizens.

[LifeHiscost]

It seems to be fairly well known that the claim is made. There is no disputing that the name "Allah" means "God". The entire question is whether the character of "Allah" and the God of the Bible is the same.

Having watched two different programs hosted by converts from the Muslim faith to Christianity, read directly from the Quran, I can assure you the books are not inspired by the same God/god as He/he describes in His/his Word/word.

"The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly."John 10:10 NKJV

"And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say,“The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness."

Romans 11:26 NLT

"...who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."1 Timothy 2:4 NKJV

"And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you."Galatians 3:29 NLT

God blesses!

[Guest]

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (1 John 5:7)

It's widely believed that this verse was added later; it's at least questionable enough that I wouldn't want to use it as a proof text.

I've been told that also. I wonder how they know? Someone told me once but I forgot. Maybe I'll do a little digging, and see if I can find out.

[Dr. Shane]

It is noteworthy that in the discussion of the Trinity in the Adventist Fundamental Belief #2, 1 John 5:7, 8 are not quoted.

[fccool]

I've been told that also. I wonder how they know? Someone told me once but I forgot. Maybe I'll do a little digging, and see if I can find out.

It's interesting that the greek manuscripts omit the verse all together, but it's unclear whether it was originally contained in the Bible. I think the verse sort of evolved as we see it today.

The early church fathers quoted the passage in one way or another since 250 AD.

Nevertheless, I don't think it's a doctrinal problem if the verse omitted. Unitarianism doctrine does not depend on this verse alone.

There are quite a few pieces scattered around that form it:

1) Jesus is portrayed as a separate entity from the Father in a sense that Jesus prays to the father and etc.

2) At the Baptism of Jesus we have all of the three entities present, and seem to be "separate". I.E. Jesus is Baptized, then HS descends as a dove, and the Father speaks to be proud of the Son.

So, it's fairly difficult to make the case against trinitarian view based on Biblical teachings alone. All of them point to three separate entities of God. Separate in terms of distinct person.

So, I would not dwell on this verse too much. If it was added later... it was a sort of "Clear Word" type of clarification, than a verbatim text. We don't know how many passages were modified in such way, since we don't have the originals.

[PheSLSDA]

For me the God of the Bible is one triune God. All 3 persons are as one. Islam denies the vicarious death of God through Christ. In Islam Allah cannot become man, he cannot suffer death and redemption of sin is achieved through good deeds. To believe in the Allah of the qu'ran I have to deny the divinity of Christ, work for my redemption and deny the Salvation Offered freely. But if Allah was the same as the God of Abraham who provided the same lamb instead of Isaac to demonstrate the plan of salvation then yes. But once any god asks to deny that , to deny Christ even died on the cross then I turn the other way...... and look upwards

[doug yowell]

Nevertheless, I don't think it's a doctrinal problem if the verse omitted. Unitarianism doctrine does not depend on this verse alone.

There are quite a few pieces scattered around that form it:

1) Jesus is portrayed as a separate entity from the Father in a sense that Jesus prays to the father and etc.

2) At the Baptism of Jesus we have all of the three entities present, and seem to be "separate". I.E. Jesus is Baptized, then HS descends as a dove, and the Father speaks to be proud of the Son.

So, it's fairly difficult to make the case against trinitarian view based on Biblical teachings alone. All of them point to three separate entities of God. Separate in terms of distinct person.

So, I would not dwell on this verse too much.

Very clear and concise,cool.

[John317]

...Look at the fruits of true christianity. Everywhere in the world were people believe in the bible there is peace and prosperity. Compare this to islamic nations where the principle of rule by opression has suppressed the mental health and prosperity of it s citizens.

Great point, ts.

Can you imagine someone making their way through the jungle inhabited by head-hunters, and, coming upon a group of Christians singing hymns about Jesus, running away in stark terror at the thought that these natives converted to Jesus Christ?