"SDAs should worship Allah"

[Guest]

When the non-Trinitarian, SDA pastor, M. L. Andreason, saw this statement in Desire of Ages, he knew what it meant, and therefore he at first couldn't believe that Ellen White wrote it. So in 1906, he went to Ellen White's home and stayed there for several days.

That is not why he couldn't believe she wrote it. He didn't believe she wrote any of her writings. That's why he went to her house. You need to listen again to the sermon: "Andreason Meets The Prophet", by M.L. Andreason.

http://delongdirect.com/sermons/SERMONS/M.%20L.%20Andreason/

[John317]

I've listened to that sermon several times. I've posted it a number of times on the Forum. He didn't believe she wrote DA 530 because he believed it was different from what he had read by her before. He wasn't saying that he didn't think she wrote anything at all. That would be crazy. He thought someone else wrote that statement because he was under the impression that she believed Christ's life was not original or underived.

M.L. Andreason has also written about this experience if you are interested in reading it.

The main point here is that ML Andreason went to her house a non-Trinitarian but he ended up a convinced Trinitarian as a result of DA 530 and his study of the Bible.

But this topic will soon need to get back on the beliefs of Muslims in regard to Christ and the Trinity. If we want to, we can carry on our discussion about the Trinity on the other thread that's devoted to this topic.

[Guest]

Ok then. But I think everybody already knows that SDAs have no business worshipping Allah. Whether they choose to admit it or not. As you pointed out, the Bible and the Koran are not from the same God. Case closed.

[Dr. Shane]

[John317]

The acceptance of the trinity doctrine was NOT because of what Mrs. E.G. White wrote. Between 1898 and 1915 she wrote a lot of anti-trinitarian doctrine statements. These statements are overlooked by those who support the trinity doctrine.

Again, this is a topic better discussed on the thread "A Friendly Discussion On the Trinity."

Please post on that discussion the "anti-trinitarian doctrine statements" by Ellen White which are "overlooked." One of my principle beliefs is that we need to take into account everything the Bible and the SOP say on any single topic, including the Godhead or Trinity.

Let me say here, though, that Ellen White opposed the spiritualized Trinitarian view of people such as John H. Kellogg and of people in the 1840s and 50s.

However, she didn't oppose the view of the Trinity as the SDA church understands and believes it today. The quotes in Ev. 614-617, among many others, are proof of this. Wilcox's statement in the RH that the SDA church believes in the Trinity was made in 1913, a statement that was right next to an article by Ellen White. She made a practice of reading all of her articles to make sure they were printed correctly. If she had any problem with what Wilcox stated in that regard, we can be sure Ellen White would not have chosen him as one of the original members of the Ellen White Estate.

Her statements are clear: "There are three living persons in the heavenly trio;" "The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead;" "the three holiest Beings of heaven;" and she definined the "eternal Godhead" as consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, etc.

I can't imagine these statements being made by someone who is anti-Trinitarian.

As a church, we don't hold the same view of the Trinity that was held by Kellogg or that was taught by the Methodist church of Ellen White's day.

However, this discussion is about the Qur'an's rejection of the divinity of Christ and of the Holy Spirit, not about the development of the doctrine of the Trinity in the SDA church.

[John317]

....As you pointed out, the Bible and the Koran are not from the same God. Case closed.

Well, not quite closed, because I think there are some people who aren't convinced that the Qur'an is not from the same God. I'd like to keep this discussion open for anyone to present evidence and argument for that viewpoint. It seems to be a popular view.

I myself am willing to change my mind if I see strong evidence for it. It has been stated before that we can prove 27 of our 28 Fundamental Beliefs from the Qur'an, and I would really like to see the evidence of this.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

....As you pointed out, the Bible and the Koran are not from the same God. Case closed.

Well, not quite closed, because I think there are some people who aren't convinced that the Qur'an is not from the same God. I'd like to keep this discussion open for anyone to present evidence and argument for that viewpoint. It seems to be a popular view.

I myself am willing to change my mind if I see strong evidence for it. It has been stated before that we can prove 27 of our 28 Fundamental Beliefs from the Qur'an, and I would really like to see the evidence of this.

Me too!!

[doug yowell]

Well I listened to Dwight twice today ... and he didn't repent for what he said last week.

Woody, do you suppose that he said what he said in the way he said it so he could be more provacative and garner more attentiveness? Just for the shock value?

[Dr. Waite]

So, then how do you explain John 5:26? In His own words, Jesus Christ clearly states that the "life within himself" was given to him from his Father or that it came from his Father.

[Guest]

John could you give us a link to the trinity thread?

[phkrause]

So, then how do you explain John 5:26? In His own words, Jesus Christ clearly states that the "life within himself" was given to him from his Father or that it came from his Father.

I'll venture to say that he's refering to his humanism as Jesus Christ not as God the Son.

[Dr. Waite]

You state: "But when we sing "Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost," aren't we worshipping the Holy Spirit? (Ellen White sang this song often and said she wished all SDAs would sing it.)"

Please do your research, this is one of the songs that was changed with the new church hymnal. Check the words of the song in the old sda hymnal. EGW did not sing these words.

[phkrause]

Well, not quite closed, because I think there are some people who aren't convinced that the Qur'an is not from the same God. I'd like to keep this discussion open for anyone to present evidence and argument for that viewpoint. It seems to be a popular view.

I myself am willing to change my mind if I see strong evidence for it. It has been stated before that we can prove 27 of our 28 Fundamental Beliefs from the Qur'an, and I would really like to see the evidence of this.

I have to also agree. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I have a cousin-in-law, who does teachings on Muslim relations. But I do agree that the Koran itself, the way its written, is not the same God. But if we think on Abraham and his son Ishmael than I think we as Adventists can make a case for Allah really being the same as the God of the Bible. What I mean is that maybe just maybe, the writer of the Koran has it wrong about his definition of God(I believe this to be the case).

[John317]

I agree, pk. He had two natures-- the human and the divine. As a human, Jesus was totally dependent on the Father for everything. When He said, "Of mine own self I can do nothing," He wasn't speaking as the Omnipotent God but as a man dependent on God. John 1: 4 makes clear that before the Word became a man, He had life in Himself. Ellen White says in DA 530 that Christ didn't derive His life or existence from anyone else. In fact, elsewhere in many places, she says Christ was "eternal, self-existent." Self-existent means not dependent on other soures for your existence. Only God is self-existent. Creatures can never be self-existent. The saved will one day be immortal but that immortality will be derived from God the Creator and Redeemer. It will be life that originated from God, not from any creature.

[John317]

You state: "But when we sing "Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost," aren't we worshipping the Holy Spirit? (Ellen White sang this song often and said she wished all SDAs would sing it.)"

Please do your research, this is one of the songs that was changed with the new church hymnal. Check the words of the song in the old sda hymnal. EGW did not sing these words.

Friend, what if she did? Would it make any differencce to you?

I've seen the words myself in the early Adventist song book complied by James White. Ellen White commented on those words and said the very things that I quoted her as saying. I saw these words at the Ellen White estate in Loma Linda.

But I will do some research and give you the documentation.

Tell me if your view of Ellen white is that she would not have sung those words and would not have urged others to sing them?

[Dr. Waite]

The whole controversy between Christ and Satan is that Satan does not want to recognize Christ as the literal only begotten divine (not human) Son of the Living GOD. Satan wants you to deny that Christ is the literal only begotten divine (not human) Son of the Living GOD. The Qur'an, like the trinity doctrine, teaches that Christ is NOT the literal only begotten divine (not human) Son of the Living GOD.

[John317]

I want to talk with you about these things but we need to do in on the Trinity thread, and I will post the link to it as Richard suggested. That is the best placce to continue this discussion on the Trinity because it is no longeer directly related to the Qur'an.

[Woody]

I'll give this thread a kick start to return to topic.

Should we worship Allah?

[Guest]

I will post the link to it as Richard suggested.

So where's the link?

[Guest]

A Friendly Discussion On the Trinity:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/423978/16.html

[John317]

The acceptance of the trinity doctrine by the leadership of the SDA church was mainly because of Leroy Fromm.

Actually, this is impossible and not in agreement with what the hsitorical evidence shows. I think you attribute too much power and influence to Leroy Froom.

Consider the following:

Froom had nothing to do with Ellen White's statemetns about the Godhead, nor did Froom influence Wilcox's decision as early as 1913 to publish in the Review & Herald that the SDA church believes in the Trinity. The evidence proves that the change in the SDA church from non-Trinitarian to Tritinitarian was in large measure already well on its way to being developed before Leroy Froom came on the scene of action. The idea of Christ being equal with the Father got its primary impetus in the SDA church as a result of the 1888 Message. That clearly had nothing to do with Leroy Froom.

[John317]

A Friendly Discussion On the Trinity:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/423978/16.html

Thank you, Richard. Excellent work!! :-)

[doug yowell]

I'll give this thread a kick start to return to topic.

Should we worship Allah?

Nice try, Woody.

[Guest]

It's hard for me to look at Woody's posts anymore because of that hideous bloody thing.

[Woody]

It's hard for me to look at Woody's posts anymore because of that hideous bloody thing.

WEll get used to it. I plan to be posting a lot more in the next few days. I want to catch up with Shane on the Hall of Fame.

An Edit: Actually I've reconsidered and will abide by the will of the people. If you guys don't like it I will remove it.