Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2011 Moderators Posted February 28, 2011 I definitely do not agree with the Catholic Ten Commandments as shown in these Catholic sites: Beginning Catholic Catechism Vatican Catechism But those sites don't give the Ten Commandments as the Catholic Bible gives them. My point is that the Catholic Bible gives the Ten Commandments the same as any other Bible. We both disagree with the Catechism. That is not the Bible. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2011 Moderators Posted February 28, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 Those contents contradict the contents found in the Qur'an from Allah. And that is the point of this discussion. You mean that this is your point.... I didn't see that as the point of the OP.... The point of the OP is whether we should be worshipping Allah. The answer is that we should not be worshipping Allah because the Allah of the Qur'an teaches contrary to the Bible. There is no teaching in it that Jesus is the pre-existent, divine Son of God who came from heaven to die on the cross for our sins. That is just one way in which it contradicts the Bible. It also teaches that there is no Trinity; that Allah is a single heing and that there is no one comparable to Him. But of course the Bible teaches that the One Godhead is manifested as three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the perfect copy of the Father. Therefore, if anyone says that Allah is the Father, then according to the Bible, the Son of God is comparable to Allah, thus proving that Allah of the Koran is a liar. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Mom E Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 The point of the OP is whether we should be worshiping Allah. The answer is that we should not be worshiping Allah because the Allah of the Qur'an teaches contrary to the Bible. And I will respectfully agree to disagree with you here. I don't believe we (you and I) really believe all that differently, but we choose to state it differently. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2011 Moderators Posted February 28, 2011 ..Some believe that it was the start of the Reformation. What do some believe was the start of the Reformation? I think you claim too much for the Qur'an. I don't know of any church historian who believes that the start of the Reformation was the study of the Qur'an. What historians say is that the Renaissance began with the discovery of ancient Greek manuscripts, such as Aristotle and Plato, found in the Mideast. These Greek manuscripts led eventually to a study of the Greek Bible, which replaced the Latin Bible. Below is from the wikipedia: Quote: There is a general, but not unchallenged, consensus that the Renaissance began in Florence, Tuscany in the 14th century. Various theories have been proposed to account for its origins and characteristics, focusing on a variety of factors including the social and civic peculiarities of Florence at the time; its political structure; the patronage of its dominant family, the Medici;[5] and the migration of Greek scholars and texts to Italy following the Fall of Constantinople at the hands of the Ottoman Turks. ....Renaissance thinkers sought out in Europe's monastic libraries and the crumbling Byzantine Empire the literary, historical, and oratorical texts of antiquity, typically written in Latin or ancient Greek, many of which had fallen into obscurity. It is in their new focus on literary and historical texts that Renaissance scholars differed so markedly from the medieval scholars of the Renaissance of the 12th century, who had focused on studying Greek and Arabic works of natural sciences, philosophy and mathematics, rather than on such cultural texts. Renaissance humanists did not reject Christianity; quite the contrary, many of the Renaissance's greatest works were devoted to it, and the Church patronized many works of Renaissance art. However, a subtle shift took place in the way that intellectuals approached religion that was reflected in many other areas of cultural life. In addition, many Greek Christian works, including the Greek New Testament, were brought back from Byzantium to Western Europe and engaged Western scholars for the first time since late antiquity. This new engagement with Greek Christian works, and particularly the return to the original Greek of the New Testament promoted by humanists Lorenzo Valla and Erasmus, would help pave the way for the Protestant Reformation. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2011 Moderators Posted February 28, 2011 The point of the OP is whether we should be worshiping Allah. The answer is that we should not be worshiping Allah because the Allah of the Qur'an teaches contrary to the Bible. Originally Posted By: MomE And I will respectfully agree to disagree with you here. I don't believe we (you and I) really believe all that differently, but we choose to state it differently. Yes, differently indeed, so much so that the words mean that Christ was not crucified and did not die on the cross. The question is why? Why would the Qur'an be so different from the Bible when Mohammad claimed that the "angel" told him word for word what "Allah" said? The Qur'an claims that it is the clear truth. Yet it clearly contradicts the truth of the Holy Bible. It says, "they [the Jews] did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa)[Jesus] and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture..." Peter declared under inspiration that they did in reality kill and crucify Jesus. Acts 2: 23. What is meant by the words, "but he was made to be like (it) or to resemble (it)?" [4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa)[Jesus] and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. [4.158] Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise. [4.159] And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa)[Jesus] shall be a witness against them. NOTE: v. 158 says that Jesus was not crucified on the cross, but that Allah took Jesus up to Himself. This verse only makes sense if it is seen as a denial that Jesus was crucified but that instead Jesus was exalted in the Divine presence. Verse 159 says that Jews and Christians believe that Jesus died on the cross, but that on the day of resurrection , Jesus will be a witness against those who believe that He was crucified. You claim that the Koran is not saying here what it is clearly saying-- that Christ was not crucified-- but at the same time, can you show where the Koran does teach that Christ died on the cross? Or that He was the Son of God? Or that Jesus lived in heaven before He came to this earth as a man? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2011 Moderators Posted February 28, 2011 Where does the Qur'an teach that Jesus Christ is God and the Son of God (Allah)? Doesn't the Qur'an deny that Jesus is the Son of Allah? Originally Posted By: Mom E This is from a friend's research - I have references for most all of this - just not including it all here."Jesus is the only one in the Generous Koran who is called holy from before his birth 19:19 Jesus is the only one in the Generous Koran who is a major prophet or messenger whose sins or asking forgiveness are not mentioned Jesus is the only one in the Generous Koran who was conceived through the Spirit of God 21:91, 66:12 Jesus is the only one in the Generous Koran who was born of a virgin 19:20 Jesus is the only one in the Generous Koran whose mother is named 5:114 Jesus is the only one in the Generous Koran who was called by his mother’s name 5:114 Jesus is the only one in the Generous Koran whose mother was chosen above all women 3:42 Jesus is the only one in the Generous Koran who spoke from the cradle 5:110, 19:30 Jesus is the only one in the Generous Koran who was a prophet from birth 19:30 Jesus is the only one in the Generous Koran who senses unbelief in people 3:52 Jesus is the only one in the Generous Koran who has knowledge of / is a sign of the last day 43:61 Jesus is the only one in the Generous Koran who is aided by the Holy Spirit 2:87 Jesus is the only one in the Generous Koran who is raised by God to Himself 3:55, 4:158 Jesus is the only prophet or messenger in the Generous Koran who is currently alive 5:117 Jesus is the only one in the Generous Koran who is with God now. 3:55 Jesus is the only one in the Generous Koran who is the predestined mercy of God 19:21 Jesus is the only one in the Generous Koran to whom obedience is connected with the straight path 43:61-63, 3:50-51 Out of all people referred to in the Koran, Jesus is the: Only one called by his mother’s name; implies virgin birth Only one called an example only one called Messiah Only prophet/messenger called a sign Only one called blessed Only one who pronounces peace on himself Only person named to be close to God Only one who is a witness on the Day of Judgment Only one called a spirit from God Only one who is aided by the Spirit The only person who confirms a book. The only one about whom the word "sinless" is used. The only one besides Allah who heals The only one besides Allah who creates The only one besides Allah who gives life to the dead The only one who tells people hidden things The only one who brings forth the dead The only one who permitted things formerly forbidden The only predestined mercy. The only one highly exalted in both this world and the world to come. The only one called the statement of truth. the only one called either a word or the Word of God. All of the above fails to show the answer to my question: Where does the Qur'an teach that Jesus Christ is God and the Son of God (Allah)? Doesn't the Qur'an deny that Jesus is the Son of Allah? We need to look closely at each one of the references and see what the Koran actually teaches about Jesus. The Koran categorically denies that Jesus was anything but a messanger of Allah and it teaches that Allah's followers make no distinction whatsoever between Jesus and all the rest of the prophets and messengers. [4.152] And those who believe in Allah and His apostles and do not make a distinction between any of them-- Allah will grant them their rewards; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [2.136] Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim [Abraham] and Ismail [ishmael] and Ishaq [isaac] and Yaqoub [Jacob] and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa [Moses] and Isa [Jesus], and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
doug yowell Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 It almost sounds like non-Muslims know more about what the Qur'an teaches than do Muslim's that teach the Qur'an. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2011 Moderators Posted February 28, 2011 NOTE: Abraham told his first-born that God had commanded him to sacrifice him. The first-born was Ishmael. Isaac is first mentioned for the first time in verse 112, after Abraham had told the other son in verse 101 that he was to be sacrificed. Originally Posted By: Mom E I'm not interested in commentary by religious scholars on either side... I can see why. The commentary by a Muslim scholar shows that Muslims who believe the Qur'an understand that it teaches that Jesus did not die on the cross and that Ishmael was the one whom Abraham was commanded to sacrifice. It is instructive to consider these facts. It is true that the narrative does not mention Ishmael by name but it does show that it was the first son, Ishmael, who Abraham was commanded to sacrifice. It could only be Ishmael since Abraham's first son was Ishmael. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2011 Moderators Posted February 28, 2011 It almost sounds like non-Muslims know more about what the Qur'an teaches than do Muslim's that teach the Qur'an. Yes, that would be somewhat like accepting the viewpoint of a Muslim on the Bible rather than Christians. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2011 Moderators Posted February 28, 2011 I'm not interested in commentary by religious scholars on either side... If you are not interested in commenary by religious scholars, why do you post so much commentary and information by your religious "friend" about the "Generous Qur'an"? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2011 Moderators Posted February 28, 2011 Where does the Qur'an teach that Jesus Christ is God and the Son of God (Allah)? Doesn't the Qur'an deny that Jesus is the Son of Allah? Originally Posted By: Mom E This is from a friend's research - I have references for most all of this - just not including it all here..... Out of all people referred to in the Koran, Jesus is the: Only one called by his mother’s name; implies virgin birth Only one called an example only one called Messiah Only prophet/messenger called a sign Only one called blessed Only one who pronounces peace on himself Only person named to be close to God Only one who is a witness on the Day of Judgment Only one called a spirit from God Only one who is aided by the Spirit The only person who confirms a book. The only one about whom the word "sinless" is used. The only one besides Allah who heals The only one besides Allah who creates The only one besides Allah who gives life to the dead The only one who tells people hidden things The only one who brings forth the dead The only one who permitted things formerly forbidden The only predestined mercy. The only one highly exalted in both this world and the world to come. The only one called the statement of truth. the only one called either a word or the Word of God. Can you please give the refeerences for these claims? Also, please notice that none of the claims help answer my question about where the Qur'an teaches that Jesus is the Son of God who died for the salvation of human beings?Satan will say many good things about Christ, but one thing He doesn't want people to believe is that God [yes, Allah!] came from heaven and lived here as a man and died in order to secure our salvation. Can people be saved by believing everything in the Koran? For instance, that Jesus was an apostle of Allah. The truth is there is no salvation in the Koran. It is a book of works. In it, Allah does not come to this world to save people. And it denies that Jesus Christ is who Jesus claimed to be during his public ministry. Jesus claimed that He came to this world from heaven and that He was Allah [God}. Here is what Jesus said: John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." The Bible says in no uncertain terms that Jesus Christ is "our great God and Savior." Titus 2: 13. Titus 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Thomas recognized Jesus as his Lord and his God. John 20: 28. But the Koran denies this and teaches that Jesus was only an apsotle. That is not saying the same thing. It is lying. Its lies have helped keep billions of people from accepting the gospel of Jesus Christ. Its lies have helped make the Mideast what it is today: a place where Christians can be decapitated for teaching the gospel to Muslims who have been deceived by the "Generous Qur'an." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2011 Moderators Posted February 28, 2011 (quoting a friend): Jesus is the only one in the Generous Koran who spoke from the cradle 5:110, 19:30 And in so saying the "Generous Koran" lies, because Jesus did not speak from the cradle as the Koran claims. Let us look at that verse in the Koran: Quote: [5.110] When Allah will say: O Isa [Jesus] son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and in old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat [Torah] and the Injeel [Gospel]; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.[5.111] And when I revealed to the disciples, saying, Believe in Me and My apostle, they said: We believe and bear witness that we submit (ourselves). [5.112] When the disciples said: O Isa [Jesus] son of Marium! will your Lord consent to send down to us food from heaven? He said: Be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers. [5.113] They said: We desire that we should eat of it and that our hearts should be at rest, and that we may know that you have indeed spoken the truth to us and that we may be of the witnesses to it. [5.114] Isa [Jesus] the son of Marium said: O Allah, our Lord! send i down to us food from heaven which should be to us an ever-recurring happiness, to the first of us and to the last of us, and a sign from Thee, and grant us means of subsistence, and Thou art the best of the Providers. [5.115] Allah said: Surely I will send it down to you, but whoever shall disbelieve afterwards from among you, surely I will chastise him with a chastisement with which I will not chastise, anyone among the nations. [5.116] And when Allah will say: O Isa [Jesus] son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things. [5.117] 1 did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things. Jesus did not worship Allah but Yahweh, or Jehovah. The Allah of the Koran is an imposter and a deceiver who dresses up as the God of the Bible, but whose words betray him. The Koran claims that Allah is the one who made the heavens and the earth, but the Bible teaches that it was Jesus Christ who, together with the the Father and the Holy Spirit, created the world and the whole universe. Notice verse 117 says that Allah "caused Jesus to die." All the Muslim commentators say that this phrase teaches that Jesus died a natural death. "This verse (117) is a conclusive proof that Jesus died a natural death, and is not now alive in heaven. Here Jesus says that so long as he was among thhis followers he was a witness of their condition, and he did not find them holding the belief in his Divinity. The logical conclusion of this statemetn is that the false doctrine of his Divinity was introduced into the Christian faith AFTER his death, after "Thou didst cause me to die." (See The Holy Qur'an with English Translation and Commentary, Maulana Muhammad Ali, page 283.) This goes along with 3: 55-- [3.55] And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth)[i will cause thee to die] and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so I will decide between you concerning that in which you differed. [3.56] Then as to those who disbelieve, I will chastise them with severe chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall have no helpers. [3.57] And as to those who believe and do good deeds, He will pay them fully their rewards; and Allah does not love the unjust. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2011 Moderators Posted February 28, 2011 You state: "But when we sing "Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost," aren't we worshipping the Holy Spirit? (Ellen White sang this song often and said she wished all SDAs would sing it.)" Please do your research, this is one of the songs that was changed with the new church hymnal. Check the words of the song in the old sda hymnal. EGW did not sing these words. I have done my research and I did it again just now. Would it make any difference to you if she did sing those exact words? I hope so, but I suspect not. Here they are , and with the referecne so you can look them up yourself. I will be interested to see how or if they change your mind: Quote: Let cheerful freewill-offerings be brought to the Lord, let us consecrate to Him all that we are, and all that we have, and then may we all unite to swell the songs,-- "Praise God, from whom all blessings flow; Praise him, all creatures here below; Praise him above, ye heavenly host; Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." - {RH, January 4, 1881 par. 18} NOTE: Ellen White believed in praising and worshipping the Trinity, which of course includes the Holy Spirit. Remember that she said that the eternal Godhead is comprised of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Yet we worship one God, not three Gods. That one God is the Trinity. She called it the "heavenly trio," which she defined as the "three living persons of heaven," "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirti." She also said the Holy Spirit is in the fullness of the Godhead. And she said that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead. In view of these facts, is it any wonder that Ellen White worshipped the Holy Spirit and encouraged us to do the same? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Mom E Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Originally Posted By: Mom E This is from a friend's research - I have references for most all of this - just not including it all here..... Out of all people referred to in the Koran, Jesus is the: Only one called by his mother’s name; implies virgin birth Only one called an example only one called Messiah Only prophet/messenger called a sign Only one called blessed Only one who pronounces peace on himself Only person named to be close to God Only one who is a witness on the Day of Judgment Only one called a spirit from God Only one who is aided by the Spirit The only person who confirms a book. The only one about whom the word "sinless" is used. The only one besides Allah who heals The only one besides Allah who creates The only one besides Allah who gives life to the dead The only one who tells people hidden things The only one who brings forth the dead The only one who permitted things formerly forbidden The only predestined mercy. The only one highly exalted in both this world and the world to come. The only one called the statement of truth. the only one called either a word or the Word of God. Can you please give the references for these claims? Also, please notice that none of the claims help answer my question about where the Qur'an teaches that Jesus is the Son of God who died for the salvation of human beings? Satan will say many good things about Christ, but one thing He doesn't want people to believe is that God [yes, Allah!] came from heaven and lived here as a man and died in order to secure our salvation. Can people be saved by believing everything in the Koran? For instance, that Jesus was an apostle of Allah. The truth is there is no salvation in the Koran. It is a book of works. In it, Allah does not come to this world to save people. And it denies that Jesus Christ is who Jesus claimed to be during his public ministry. Jesus claimed that He came to this world from heaven and that He was Allah [God}. Quote
doug yowell Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Through all ages God has spoken and worked by human instrumentalities. God has given to men their faculties, and he expects them to use them and by use to improve their abilities. They are to employ these faculties in rescuing truth from the rubbish of error where it has been made to serve the cause of the great adversary. The gems of truth are imperishable, and the Lord would have them gathered up and placed in their proper relation, that they may embellish and adorn the doctrine of Christ our Saviour. Truth is to be communicated from one human agent to another and to be molded into the life and character of those who receive it, in order that glory may redound to God. Truth that has found its proper setting, flashes brilliant rays of divine light into darkened minds, and meets the wants and necessities of the minds and hearts of fallen men who could not be reached by any other agency. It is by living out the truth in human life that souls are to be reached. {RH, October 23, 1894 par. 9} Would this include the truth of the Divinity of Jesus and the exclusive nature of the Bible to make people "wise unto salvation"? Quote
Mom E Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Would this include the truth of the Divinity of Jesus and the exclusive nature of the Bible to make people "wise unto salvation"? Would what include this (I'm not sure that I understand your question)? And what about Romans where Paul says that there will be people who are saved who never knew the Bible or Christianity?? (EGW says the same too) Of course, their lives are much improved and they can have a much deeper relationship with God if/when they learn about the Bible and Christianity - no question about that. But doesn't God also love His many children around the world who never know about either their whole life-times? Are they doomed to eternal death because of their ignorance?? Quote
doug yowell Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Originally Posted By: doug yowell Would this include the truth of the Divinity of Jesus and the exclusive nature of the Bible to make people "wise unto salvation"? Would what include this (I'm not sure that I understand your question)? And what about Romans where Paul says that there will be people who are saved who never knew the Bible or Christianity?? (EGW says the same too) Of course, their lives are much improved and they can have a much deeper relationship with God if/when they learn about the Bible and Christianity - no question about that. But doesn't God also love His many children around the world who never know about either their whole life-times? Are they doomed to eternal death because of their ignorance?? Absolutely,God loves them And eventually the teachings of the Bible will be the standard of judgment for all. This is one of the goals of Christianity;"this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached as a witness unto all nations..." "teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you","all authority has been given unto Me..." The Bible is the only reliable historical witness to the real Jesus and the most complete and accurate record of who the real God is. The teachings of the Qur'an may have some parallel similarities,as do many other religions,to the Bible truths, but the god of the Qur'an is not a reliable source of truth.it can never lead people to a deeper relationship with the One True God.The best it can do is testify to the superiority of the Bible in comparison.And if the lives of it's followers are to be indicative of it's origins then comparing the fruits of it's teachings seems a valid method of judgment. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2011 Moderators Posted February 28, 2011 Can you please give the references for these claims? Originally Posted By: Mom E Yes, I CAN give references for all the statements made above. At this point, I'm choosing not to. It feels to me that you're making this thread a platform for making one single point - which I "got" a long time ago - and you are unwilling to consider any other angle on it. I'm a busy mom, and don't have time to share when you've already fully made up your mind about all details of the topic... I am showing evidence from both the Qur'an and the Bible, and I am only asking that you do the same. I am doing here what you are doing-- expressing my viewpoint, the same as anyone is able to do on the Advetist Forum. I'm not here to try to pursuade you that I am willing to consider other angles, but if I wasn't willing to consider any other angle, I wouldn't have been studying the Qur'an and the other world religions for the last 35 years, a study I began before I became a Christian. I am completely open to evidence and am even willing to accept the Koran as inspired by God if I see evidence that this is a valid viewpoint. But I am not persuaded by mere claims without documentation. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2011 Moderators Posted February 28, 2011 ....I don't believe that there's much chance of me believing that the Quran is on par with the Bible - along with most people on this thread. It's seems that you're afraid of that happening and keep trying to drive home points to keep it from happening. Your posts talk about what you think my motives are, but you don't know what my motives are any more than I can tell your motives. That is why I don't talk about other people's motives. It doesn't matter to me what your motives are and I cerainly can't know what they are in any case. I refuse to guess or conjecture. Originally Posted By: Mom E That's a pretty different goal than the one I have with what I'm sharing, and I suspect the same with Pastor Nelson. There are people who come to complete understanding of truth by starting with the Quran and following the many truths that are found there - It is one thing to study the truths that are in the Qur'an and to point these out to Muslims, showing them that tese truths are the same as those found in the Bible--- but it is altogether different to teach them and other Christians that the Qur'an is inspired by the God of the Bible. After years of studying the Qur'an and comparing it with the Bible, I am convinced that the Qur'an is from God's self-declared enemy. Knowing the deceiver as we do, we understand that he always includes truth with his lies. This makes the lies all that much more convincing. We shouldn't be surprised, therefore, to find a good deal of truth in the Koran. That is what Mohammad believed when he first contacted the "angel Gabriel" in the cave. Unless we believe that the true God inspired contradictory teachings, the only thing we can believe is that the God of the Bible did not inspire the Qur'an. I am only interested at this point in one thing: understanding the truth about whether the same God inspired the Qur'an that inspired the Bible. I am not interested in telling people that the Qur'an is true if it is not true. From my viewpint, it is wrong to tell people that the Qur'an or any other book is true or inspired by God simply for the sake of persuading them to believe the gospel. Such tactics mean the ends justify the means. Originally Posted By: Mom E including this one: “So when you are in doubt about what we have revealed to you, ask those who are reading the Book [a clear reference to the Bible] before you. Truth has come to you from your Lord, so do not be one of the doubters” (Yunis 10: 94) I believe God would have Christians tell the Muslims the truth, and the truth is not that the Qur'an is inspired by the true God. We should not lie to them in order to manipulate them into accepting the gospel or the Bible. We shouldn't ignore the fact that the Qur'an contains falsehoods and contradicts the word of God. We don't help Muslims have confidence in the Bible as the standard of truth by telling them that the Qur'an also is a reliable standard of God's truth. I am not suggesting that we should go to Muslims and tell them that the Qur'an is from Satan. But at the same time, we shouldn't agree with them that it is a reliable measuring-stick of truth from the same God who inspired the Bible. That would be like agreeing with Catholics that the Apocraphya is inspried of God in order to teach them the truth. It wouldn't make any sense and would defeat our purpose of teaching Bible truth. Consider again the following passage: Originally Posted By: John3:17 (quoting): [10.94] But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.[10.95] And you should not be of those who reject the communications of Allah, (for) then you should be one of the losers. If we agree with Muslims that the above passage (v. 10: 95) is true, it would mean we agree that Muslims should not reject the Qur'an. And that would be false, because both the Bible and the Qur'an cannot be true. People have to make up their minds which source is the truth of God. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2011 Moderators Posted February 28, 2011 And what about Romans where Paul says that there will be people who are saved who never knew the Bible or Christianity?? (EGW says the same too) Of course, their lives are much improved and they can have a much deeper relationship with God if/when they learn about the Bible and Christianity - no question about that. But doesn't God also love His many children around the world who never know about either their whole life-times? Are they doomed to eternal death because of their ignorance?? Where does Paul teach that people are saved apart from the gospel of Christ? Do you refer to Romans 2: 14-16? Compare Romans 10: 12-17. Ellen White does teach that there will be people saved who never heard of Christ, but this can't take the place of the Bible's emphasis, which is that the Gospel is necessary for people's salvation. But Ellen White would not have wanted for anyone to base their view of salvation on her remark. The Bible makes it clear that as far as humanity is concerned, their salvation depends on their hearing the gospel and responding to it in a positive way. If we believe that people are saved in any other way, it will mean that the proclamation of the gospel loses its urgency. The reason God comissioned His disciples to go to the ends of the world with the gospel is that if we don't go, people will be lost. Yes, Jesus does love all people but millions of people whom God loves will be lost. God cannot and will not save all people because of His love for them. Ellen Whte and the Bible make it clear that there will be many people lost forever because Christians didn't do their duty. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Mom E Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 It is one thing to study the truths that are in the Qur'an and to point these out to Muslims, showing them that these truths are the same as those found in the Bible--- but it is altogether different to teach them and other Christians that the Qur'an is inspired by the God of the Bible. After years of studying the Qur'an and comparing it with the Bible, I am convinced that the Qur'an is from God's self-declared enemy. Knowing the deceiver as we do, we understand that he always includes truth with his lies. This makes the lies all that much more convincing. We shouldn't be surprised, therefore, to find a good deal of truth in the Koran. That is what Mohammad believed when he first contacted the "angel Gabriel" in the cave. Unless we believe that the true God inspired contradictory teachings, the only thing we can believe is that the God of the Bible did not inspire the Qur'an. I am only interested at this point in one thing: understanding the truth about whether the same God inspired the Qur'an that inspired the Bible. I am not interested in telling people that the Qur'an is true if it is not true. From my viewpoint, it is wrong to tell people that the Qur'an or any other book is true or inspired by God simply for the sake of persuading them to believe the gospel. Such tactics mean the ends justify the means. . . . I believe God would have Christians tell the Muslims the truth, and the truth is not that the Qur'an is inspired by the true God. We should not lie to them in order to manipulate them into accepting the gospel or the Bible. We shouldn't ignore the fact that the Qur'an contains falsehoods and contradicts the word of God. We don't help Muslims have confidence in the Bible as the standard of truth by telling them that the Qur'an also is a reliable standard of God's truth. I am not suggesting that we should go to Muslims and tell them that the Qur'an is from Satan. But at the same time, we shouldn't agree with them that it is a reliable measuring-stick of truth from the same God who inspired the Bible. That would be like agreeing with Catholics that the Apocrypha is inspired of God in order to teach them the truth. It wouldn't make any sense and would defeat our purpose of teaching Bible truth. Would you please define inspiration for me? I asked about that earlier, but you haven't taken time to answer yet... Does inspiration only apply to the Bible since we believe in Sola Scriptura? How does it apply to EGW? How does it apply to people like Luther, John Bunyun, etc etc? Quote
Mom E Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 Ellen White and the Bible make it clear that there will be many people lost forever because Christians didn't do their duty. I'm not going to discuss this any further except to say that you and I do not agree about this. And I have spent a number of years spending significant time with many people who have had extremely limited (or none?) contact with Christianity or the Bible except through me... and expect to spend quite a few more years doing the same... Quote
Moderators John317 Posted March 1, 2011 Moderators Posted March 1, 2011 Would you please define inspiration for me? I asked about that earlier, but you haven't taken time to answer yet... Does inspiration only apply to the Bible since we believe in Sola Scriptura? How does it apply to EGW? How does it apply to people like Luther, John Bunyun, etc etc? I believe that Muhammad really did meet an angel who dictated the Qur'an to him in that cave. He claimed that the angel gave him the very words of Allah and that the words wwre not his own. Therefore when we speak of the kind of inspiration of the Qur'an, we are talking about a different process than the one that I believe occurrred in the case of the Bible or of Ellen White. In those cases, I don't believe it was a matter of the writers writing down the very words that God dictated to them. God showed them visions, and the writers usually communicted those visions in words of their own choosing, although with the assistence of the Holy Spirit, who kept the writing free of doctrinal error. Therefore the Bible is a reliable guide to the truth that God has revealed about Himself and about His plan for the church and His people. The Bible's inspiration is quite different from the work of such men as Luther, John Bunyun, etc. There is both truth and error mixed together in Luther's writings. I see purer truth in John Bunyan's writings than I do in Luther's, yet neither one of these men were biblical prophets. Luther and Bunyan were not prophets but were teachers, evangelists and pastors. By contrast, Ellen White was a genuine prophet of God in the biblical sense, besides being also a teacher, pastor, and evangelist. As she said herself, her work did include that of a prophet, but it went beyond it, so that she was truly a messenger of God, ordained by Christ Himself. (See 1 SM 25-45) If we are to believe Muhammad, he didn't receive his inspiration in the same way that the Bible writers received their inspiration. He got Allah's message word for word rather than through visions and dreams which would be written down in the prophets' own words. We can completely trust the Bible whereas we cannot completely trust the writings of Luther or John Bunyan. Bible writers wrote the "word of God," i.e., Holy Scripture, whereas Luther and John Bunyan and othrs like them wrote their thoughts about the word of God. They are helpful and good to read, but they must always be compared to the Bible in order for us to verify that they are teaching us truth. The rule is, Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. This is the same rule that applies to everything that people claim to be from the living, true God. It applies to the Qur'an. If we fail to make the comparison and if we fail to use this measuring-stick for truth, we will be in danger of doing exactly what our Mormon friends have done in the case of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. It appears to me we are also in danger of doing the same in the case of the Qur'an, and some SDAs may have already done it. In te final analysis, then, we need to distinguish between a book that contains some truths similar to the Bible's truths and a book that is inspired by the same God who inspired the Bible. Those are two very different things and make a world of difference because they lead to two very different conclusions. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted March 5, 2011 Moderators Posted March 5, 2011 Would you please define inspiration for me? I asked about that earlier, but you haven't taken time to answer yet... OK, I took the time to answer you--- 3 days ago--- so now whatdya think? :-) It's post#426849. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
olger Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 Rather than answer your letter, I would suggest getting acquainted with Jesus would answer your confusion, unless of course you believe Jesus to be a liar as opposed to your understanding of the Word possibly being deficient. "I and my Father are one."John 10:30 KJV "But anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love."1 John 4:8 NLT "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."Hebrews 13:7 NLT "“I am the Lord, and I do not change. That is why you descendants of Jacob are not already destroyed." Malachi 3:6 NLT God blesses! Yes indeed. g Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
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