"SDAs should worship Allah"

[Stan]

>>>Mohammad said that the angel Gabriel dictated the words written in the Qur'an.

I thought the Qur'an was put together after he died.

[John317]

So, then how do you explain John 5:26? In His own words, Jesus Christ clearly states that the "life within himself" was given to him from his Father or that it came from his Father.

Check out post#426238, which answers your question.

[phkrause]

>>>Mohammad said that the angel Gabriel dictated the words written in the Qur'an.

I thought the Qur'an was put together after he died.

I believe that's correct.

[Mom E]

>>>Mohammad said that the angel Gabriel dictated the words written in the Qur'an.

I thought the Qur'an was put together after he died.

My understanding is that back then, as now in areas of poor literacy, much is maintained by oral tradition. It's said that Mohammed was illiterate. That the angel told him to "Recite" (not "Write") what was told to him. So therefore, it was put together after he passed away by his followers...

[Guest]

How shaky is that?

[Mom E]

OK. I'm just trying to read through this thread (busy mom - don't have time to read everything word for word). What's the point here? (the original question)

Should we worship God using the name Allah? Any Christian who speaks Arabic does so, and apparently some in other languages too.

Are we worshiping the same God as Muslims do? Well, that could be turned around to also ask - are we worshiping the same God as Catholics, Baptists, Mormons, etc etc.? What's the point of asking that??

[Woody]

I dunno. It was just something that Dwight brought up. So, I brought it up.

Apparently it made it all the way to Dwights' superiors when the complaint came in. It was not swept under the rug.

[John317]

I thought the Qur'an was put together after he died.

Muslims believe that the Qur'an was divinely revealed in its present state without corruption. They consider it to be the perfect revelation from Allah.

Muhammad went to the cave and there the spirit communicated the message to Mohammad directly. Mohammad, an illiterate, would memorize it and then give them to his followers, who memorized them and wrote them down.

Most editions of the Qur'an contain Introductions in which the translator/editors describe how the Qur'an was communicated to Muhammad and how it was made into the book that exists today. They all tell the same basic story.

Muhammad always claimed that it was the angel Gabriel who dictated to him the very words of Allah and that Muhammad committed those words to memory and then dictated them to his followers, who in turn would write them down on palm leaves, stones, and on any other material that was available to them. After Muhammad's death these writings were collected and published in an authorized version between 644-656 AD.

The Muslim explanation of the writing of the Koran says that about 605 AD, Muhammad believed at first that an evil spirit made contact with him at the cave, but that his wife, a cousin and others convinced him that he was a prophet and should go back and hear more of what the "angel" would tell him. His wife told him that his behavior was such that God would never allow a harmful spirit come to him. She said that it was her hope that he would become the prophet of his people. Muhammad finally relented and returned to the cave and was contacted again by the angel who identified himself as Gabriel. The following words are the first that the "angel" spoke to him "in a dreadful voice":

Sura 96, verses 1-5--

The Clot

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

[96.1] Read [Recite!] in the name of your Lord Who created.

[96.2] He created man from a clot [from a clot of blood].

[96.3] Read [Recite!] and your Lord is Most Honorable [the Most Bountiful One],

[96.4] Who taught (to write) with the pen

[96.5] Taught man what he knew not.

Another translation has:

Recite in the name of your Lord who created -

96:2

Created man from a clinging substance.

96:3

Recite, and your Lord is the most Generous -

96:4

Who taught by the pen -

96:5

Taught man that which he knew not.

Source: http://quran.com/96

[John317]

See post#426499, just above this one.

The following statements from the wikipedia decribe the way Muslims view the Qur'an and how the Qur'an was written:

Quote:

Muslims also consider the original Arabic verbal text to be the final revelation of God.

Muslims believe that the Qur’an was repeatedly revealed from Allah to Muhammad verbally through the angel Jibrīl (Gabriel) over a period of approximately twenty-three years, beginning in 610 CE, when he was forty, and concluding in 632 CE, the year of his death. Followers of Islam further believe that the Qur’an was memorized, recited and written down by Muhammad's companions after every revelation dictated by Muhammad. Most of Muhammad's tens of thousands of companions, called Sahabas, learned the Qur’an by heart, repeatedly recited in front of Muhammad for his approval or the approval of other Sahabas. Muslim tradition agrees that although the Qur’an was authentically memorized completely by tens of thousands verbally, the Qur’an was still established textually into a single book form shortly after Muhammad's death by order of the first Caliph Abu Bakr suggested by his future successor Umar. Hafsa, Muhammad's widow and Umar's daughter, was entrusted with that Quran text after the second Caliph Umar died. When Uthman, the third Caliph, started noticing slight differences in the Arabic dialect; he requested Hafsa to allow him to use the Qur’an text in her possession to be set as the standard dialect, the Quraish dialect aka Fus'ha (Modern Standard Arabic). Before returning that Qur'an text to Hafsa; Uthman immediately made several thousands of copies of Abu Bakar's Qur’anic compilation and ordered all other texts to be burned. This process of formalization of the orally transmitted text to Abu Bakar's Qur'anic text is known as the "Uthmanic recension". The present form of the Qur’an text is accepted by most scholars as the original version compiled by Abu Bakr.

Source: http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-hptb6&p=qur%27an&type=

[John317]

I'm just trying to read through this thread (busy mom - don't have time to read everything word for word). What's the point here? (the original question)

Should we worship God using the name Allah? Any Christian who speaks Arabic does so, and apparently some in other languages too.

I don't believe it's a matter of whether people use the word "Allah" or not. It's a question of the identity and character and teachings of "Allah."

Originally Posted By: MomE

Are we worshiping the same God as Muslims do?

Do we worship the God who inspired Muhammad to write what we find in the Qur'an? No one can answer the question for you. Do you believe what the Qur'an says? Was Jesus only a messenger of Allah? The Qur'an says that Allah did not have a son and that Jesus was not killed on the cross but that it only appeared to be Jesus.

Originally Posted By: MomE

Well, that could be turned around to also ask - are we worshiping the same God as Catholics, Baptists, Mormons, etc etc.? What's the point of asking that??

I believe there's a big difference here because Catholics and Baptists believe in the God who inspired the Bible, including the New Testament. (Mormons are in a different category, however, because they believe the Bible was corrupted and needed to be corrected by the "Inspired Version" of Joseph Smith, so they don't really go by the Bible as we know it. They go more by the Inspired Version and by the books written or translated by Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, & the Doctrine and the Covenants.)

The Qur'an contradicts the Bible in many very significant ways, yet claims that the God who inspired the Bible is the same one who inspired the Qur'an, which teaches many things at odds with the Bible. Muslims explain these contradictions by saying that Jews and Christians corrupted the Bible. Therefore the Koran is the most dependable word of God because it is "a book free of doubt and involution." Sura 2: 2.

"This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah ."

Do Seventh-day Adventists and other Christians believe this? Should we?

[John317]

Did Leroy Fromm get his information about the holy spirit from "the greatest and most learned men of the age, who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent ????

Can you show where Leroy Froom makes statements about hte Holy Spirti that contradict the teachings of ther Bible or the writings of Ellen White?

Please post your respond to this on the discussion, "A Friendly Discussion On the Trinity." The link:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post426562

[Mom E]

I don't believe it's a matter of whether people use the word "Allah" or not. It's a question of the identity and character and teachings of "Allah."

[Mom E]

Do you believe the Bible is inspired by God?

Do you believe the Qur'an is inspired by the same God who inspired the Bible?

What kind of inspiration? Thought inspiration? Word inspiration?

Was Luther inspired by God in his writings? or by Satan?

[fergus]

Hi all,

please see throught these Video 1 and Video 2 muslim, from Morocco I think, prasing Jesus and Mary.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I don't believe it's a matter of whether people use the word "Allah" or not. It's a question of the identity and character and teachings of "Allah."

And who is defining that? There are many Christians who use the name, Allah, for the deity that we call in English, God... Maybe you mean Allah as defined by the Quran? Or do you mean the Allah defined by Muslims? That's a wide open thing because there are huge variations in belief within Islam!

I'm letting the Qur'an itself define it.

As you say, "Allah" means "God." But the Bible God named Yahweh and Elohim and Yeshua is not the same as the God that the Qur'an describes. This is as clear with respect to the Qur'an as it is for the Apocrypha and for similar reasons.

Have you studied the Qur'an itself?

If so, where does the Qur'an teach that Jesus Christ is God and the Son of God (Allah)? Doesn't the Qur'an deny that Jesus is the Son of Allah?

Doesn't it teach that Ishmael was the son which God commanded Abraham to sacrifice?

So I am not talking about all the various ideas and beliefs among Islam. My subject is the teachings of the Qur'an as opposed to the teachings of the Bible. My theme is that they cannot both be inspired by the same God since they contradict each other in some very significant, fundamental ways.

One of the most significant is that the Qur'an denies that the forgiveness of sins necessited the death of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. It says, moreover, that those who believe Jesus was the Son of Allah and that He died on the cross will be punished along with the unbelievers.

Let me know if you have never seen where the Qur'an teaches these things, and I will be glad to quote them again.

[John317]

I believe there's a big difference here because Catholics and Baptists believe in the God who inspired the Bible, including the New Testament.

Originally Posted By: MomE

Really?? I certainly don't agree with the Catholic Bible or Ten Commandments... I don't agree with the way they define the identity and character of God... I don't agree with the way Baptists define God either...

You are not talking here about the Bible itself but about the way they interpret the Bible. There's a big difference. I may not agree with every detail of your view of God, either, but the point is that we agree that the Bible is true and that it is the word of God.

There's nothing wrong with the 66 books in the Catholic Bible. They have some of the best translations of the Bible. And their translations of the Ten Commandments in the Bible are the same as found in Protestand Bibles. But Catholic Bibles do contain some books that we reject for the same reasons that we Christians reject the Qur'an. The Apocrypha contains many things that are contrary to the canon as well as things that are false even according to the Catholic Church. These are the same reasons Seventh-day Adventists reject the Qur'an.

As for Baptisits, it's quite true you don't agree with all the details of the way Baptists interpret the Bible, but you do agree with Baptists on the contents of the Bible in regard to God and Christ. Those contents contradict the contents found in the Qur'an from Allah. And that is the point of this discussion.

[Mom E]

Those contents contradict the contents found in the Qur'an from Allah. And that is the point of this discussion.

You mean that this is your point.... I didn't see that as the point of the OP....

[Mom E]

Originally Posted By: John317

I believe there's a big difference here because Catholics and Baptists believe in the God who inspired the Bible, including the New Testament.

Originally Posted By: MomE

Really?? I certainly don't agree with the Catholic Bible or Ten Commandments... I don't agree with the way they define the identity and character of God... I don't agree with the way Baptists define God either...

There's nothing wrong with the 66 books in the Catholic Bible. They have some of the best translations of the Bible. And their translations of the Ten Commandments in the Bible are the same as found in Protestant Bibles. But Catholic Bibles do contain some books that we reject for the same reasons that we Christians reject the Qur'an. The Apocrypha contains many things that are contrary to the canon as well as things that are false even according to the Catholic Church.

I definitely do not agree with the Catholic Ten Commandments as shown in these Catholic sites:

Beginning Catholic

Catechism

Vatican Catechism

[Mom E]

Where does the Qur'an teach that Jesus Christ is God and the Son of God (Allah)? Doesn't the Qur'an deny that Jesus is the Son of Allah?

[Stan]

The view of the Qur'an, reminds me of how some people have 'researched' EGW.

It needs more than casual reading. Glad you posted that Mom E, that will help some to view this whole thing better.

Some believe that it was the start of the Reformation.

[Woody]

So ... after all this ... do we have any resolution?

Do you all agree that Dwight Nelson should be telling us to worship Allah or not?

The conference backed him up.

[John317]

Doesn't it teach that Ishmael was the son which God commanded Abraham to sacrifice?

Quote:

No, it does not. It tells the story, and it talks about Ishmael before and after the story. But throughout the story, it only refers to "Abraham's son" - not defining which one it was. ...

Here is the text:

[37.100] My Lord! grant me of the doers of good deeds.

[37.101] So We gave him [Abraham] the good news of a boy, possessing forbearance.

[37.102] And when he attained to working with him, he said: O my son! surely I have seen in a dream that I should sacrifice you; consider then what you see. He said: O my father! do what you are commanded; if Allah please, you will find me of the patient ones.

[37.103] So when they both submitted and he threw him down upon his forehead,

[37.104] And We called out to him saying: O Ibrahim!

[37.105] You have indeed shown the truth of the vision; surely thus do We reward the doers of good:

[37.106] Most surely this is a manifest trial.

[37.107] And We ransomed him with a Feat sacrifice.

[37.108] And We perpetuated (praise) to him among the later generations.

[37.109] Peace be on Ibrahim.

[37.110] Thus do We reward the doers of good.

[37.111] Surely he was one of Our believing servants.

[37.112] And We gave him the good news of Ishaq [isaac][/b], a prophet among the good ones.

NOTE: Abraham told his first-born that God had commanded him to sacrifice him. The first-born was Ishmael. Isaac is first mentioned for the first time in verse 112, after Abraham had told the other son in verse 101 that he was to be sacrificed.

The Holy Qur'an with English translation and commentary by Maulana Muhammad Ali states, "That the child spoken of here was Ishmael and not Isaac is made clear by v. 112, which states that it was after the incident that Abrham received the news of the birth of Isaac. This, no doubt, contradicts the Bible statement, but the fact that Ishmael's descendants kept a memorial of this sacrifice in the annual pilgrimage to Makkah shows clearly that Ishmael, and not Isaac, was the son whom Abraham ws commanded to sacrifice." See page 886.

[Mom E]

Here is a commentary on the death of Jesus as portrayed in the Quran - the audience this is written for is Muslims:

Did Christ Jesus son of Mary die?

• The (Mistaken) General Opinion

Some people mistakenly claim that “Christ Jesus son of Mary, God’s Messenger and God’s Word, which He sent to Mary, and a spirit from Him” (Nisa 4:171) did not die. They base their view on part of one verse of the Generous Koran: “And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it seemed to them that they did.” (Nisa 4:157).

But because they ignore the context of the verse and everything else the Generous Koran says about the subject, they distort the meaning of the Generous Koran. That is like saying, “We don’t pray, because the Generous Koran says, ‘Don’t go near prayer.’ (Nisa 4:43) The complete thought is “Don’t go near prayer when you are drunk.” The Generous Koran never forbids prayer. Ignoring the context and other verses on the same subject leads to false conclusions and corrupts the text.

• Context is Crucial

If we read the verse in context, we understand it correctly. About whom does Nisa 4:171 speak? The subject of the sentence is not our master Christ Jesus son of Mary, but a group of people referred to simply as “they.” The previous verses, however, specify clearly who they are, and the context clarifies the meaning. (Nisa 4:153-156):

“The people of the book ask you to make a book come down from heaven. They asked more than that from Moses.”(Nisa 4:153) About whom does this verse talk? The people of Moses, the Jews.

“They broke their covenant (with God) and disbelieved in God’s miracles and they killed the prophets without cause.” (Nisa 4:155) About whom does this verse talk? The people of the prophets, the Jews.

“They disbelieved in God and brought a scandalous charge against Mary.” (Nisa 4:156) About whom does this verse talk? The Jews in Jesus’ day.

“They said, ‘We killed Christ Jesus son of Mary, God’s Messenger.’” (Nisa 4:157) About whom does this verse talk? Again, the Jews in Jesus’ day.

“And they did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it seemed so to them.”.” (Nisa 4:157) About whom does this verse talk? The people of Jesus’ day, the Jews.

• The True Meaning

As we have seen, verse 157 is the completion of the previous verses, and all of them have a single subject: the people of Moses, also known as the people of the Sabbath, or the Jews. Once we understand this, we can understand the correct meaning of the verse: “They said, ‘We killed Christ Jesus son of Mary, God’s Messenger,’ and they did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it seemed so to them.” (Nisa 4:157) It means the Jews claimed they had killed Christ Jesus son of Mary, God’s Messenger. But what does the verse say? That the Jews did not kill or crucify Christ Jesus son of Mary. Does the verse say Christ Jesus son of Mary did not die? By no means! Nowhere in the whole Generous Koran does it say that Christ Jesus son of Mary did not die.

And truly the Jews themselves did not kill him. We see throughout history that the Jews never used crucifixion to execute people, but they used stoning instead. Those who used the cross to execute criminals were the Romans. It was the Romans who did this dastardly deed (crucifying Christ Jesus son of Mary) on behalf of the Jews. This also agrees with the prophecies found in the Wise Tawrah [Torah], the description found in the Honored Injeel [Gospels], and the other verses in the Generous Koran on the subject.

• The Goal of the Jews

It is beyond doubt that the Jews rejected Christ Jesus son of Mary and wanted to get rid of him and his message. The Generous Koran mentions this about the Jews:

“Whenever a messenger comes to you, bringing a message you don’t like, you become proud, and some of them you called liars, and some of them you (now) kill.” (Baqara 2:87)

“Whenever a messenger came to them, bringing a message they didn’t like, some of them they called liars, and some of them they (now) kill.” (Maidah 5:70)

“They were crafty.” (Al Imran 3:54)

The Jews were indeed crafty and wanted to get rid of Jesus and his message. The Jews killed many of prophets. The Jews under Roman rule could have stoned Jesus to death, but they did not want him to have the glory of a martyr’s death. They wanted him to have the despicable death of crucifixion.

• The Craftiness of the Jews

Why, then, did the Jews claim ‘We killed Christ Jesus son of Mary, God’s Messenger’ if they had not killed him themselves? After they arrested Jesus and surrendered him to the infidel Romans for execution, “it seemed to them” that they had finished with Jesus and his influence on their people. But what happened? God raised him from death and got victory over the unbelieving Jews. This was a great victory and God is All-Powerful! As the Generous Koran says: “And they were crafty and God was crafty, and God was the Craftiest.” (Al Imran 3:54)

• Generous Koran verses dealing with the death of Christ Jesus son of Mary which some people ignore:

“Peace be upon me the day I was born and the day I will die, and the day I will be raised up alive.” (Mariam 19:33)

“God said, ‘Jesus, I will make you die and raise you up to Me, and cleanse you from the disbelievers, and make those who follow you higher than the disbelievers until the Day of Resurrection.” (Al Imran 3:55)

“I was a witness over them while I remained among them, but when you made me die, You Yourself were the watcher over them.” (Maidah 5:117)

“We gave Moses the Book and sent messengers after him, and we gave Jesus son of Mary miraculous signs and supported him with the Holy Spirit. Whenever a messenger comes to you, bringing a message you don’t like, you become proud, and some of them you called liars, and some of them you (now) kill.” (Baqara 2:87)

“And He has commanded me to pray and give alms to the poor as long as I remain alive.” (Mariam 19:31)

“And We supported him with the Holy Spirit.” (Baqara 2:253) “And you did not kill them but God killed them.” (Anfal 8:17)

“Never consider that those who die following God’s path are dead, but alive with their Lord providing for them.”

(Al Imran 3:169

• Some observations about the Koran’s record of Jesus’ Death & Resurrection.

a) Jesus knew in advance that he was going to die, and that it would be a blessed day.

God Himself said that He would make Jesus die, and then raise him up to Himself.

c) Jesus addressed God, confirming that God had already made him die before the Generous Koran was revealed.

d) The Jews habitually killed messengers and prophets.

e) Moses came and the Jews called him a liar, and Jesus came and they were responsible for this crucifixion.

f) The order is quite clear and very important. Everyone agrees that God raised Jesus, or made him ascend to heaven, but not everyone agrees on when it happened. Notice the order of events in the Generous Koran:

g) “Peace be upon me the day I was born and the day I will die, and the day I will be raised up alive.” (Mariam 19:33) First Christ’s birth, then his death comes before he is raised up alive.

“God said, ‘Jesus, I will make you die and raise you up to Me, and cleanse you from the disbelievers, and make those who follow you higher than the disbelievers until the Day of Resurrection.” (Al Imran 3:55)

Would the Generous Koran mention this order if the truth was another order? Of course not. This is the historical order and indicates Jesus actually died.

h) God Himself commanded Christ Jesus son of Mary to pray and give alms to the poor until he died. The question to those stubbornly insisting that Christ Jesus son of Mary did not die is this: To whom is Jesus giving alms in heaven? Do those with God in heaven need food or money? No! The poor are in this world, not in heaven.

i) God supported Christ Jesus son of Mary with his spirit until the very end. Yet He did not prevent his death. Why? God is Omnipotent and in total control of everything, so we must consider that the death of Christ happened according to God’s will. This is like what the Generous Koran describes:

“And you did not kill them but God killed them.” (Anfal 8:17)

“Never consider that those who die following God’s path are dead, but alive with their Lord providing for them.” (Al Imran 3:169)

[Mom E]

NOTE: Abraham told his first-born that God had commanded him to sacrifice him. The first-born was Ishmael. Isaac is first mentioned for the first time in verse 112, after Abraham had told the other son in verse 101 that he was to be sacrificed.

[John317]

(quoting): If we read the verse in context, we understand it correctly. About whom does Nisa 4:171 speak? The subject of the sentence is not our master Christ Jesus son of Mary, but a group of people referred to simply as they. The previous verses, however, specify clearly who they are, and the context clarifies the meaning. (Nisa 4:153-156):

The people of the book ask you to make a book come down from heaven. They asked more than that from Moses.(Nisa 4:153) About whom does this verse talk? The people of Moses, the Jews.

They broke their covenant (with God) and disbelieved in God's miracles and they killed the prophets without cause. (Nisa 4:155) About whom does this verse talk? The people of the prophets, the Jews.

They disbelieved in God and brought a scandalous charge against Mary. (Nisa 4:156) About whom does this verse talk? The Jews in Jesus day.

They said, We killed Christ Jesus son of Mary, God’s Messenger. (Nisa 4:157) About whom does this verse talk? Again, the Jews in Jesus day.

“And they did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it seemed so to them.”.” (Nisa 4:157) About whom does this verse talk? The people of Jesus’ day, the Jews.

The True Meaning

As we have seen, verse 157 is the completion of the previous verses, and all of them have a single subject: the people of Moses, also known as the people of the Sabbath, or the Jews. Once we understand this, we can understand the correct meaning of the verse: “They said, ‘We killed Christ Jesus son of Mary, God’s Messenger,’ and they did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it seemed so to them.” (Nisa 4:157) It means the Jews claimed they had killed Christ Jesus son of Mary, God’s Messenger. But what does the verse say? That the Jews did not kill or crucify Christ Jesus son of Mary. Does the verse say Christ Jesus son of Mary did not die? By no means! Nowhere in the whole Generous Koran does it say that Christ Jesus son of Mary did not die.

And truly the Jews themselves did not kill him. We see throughout history that the Jews never used crucifixion to execute people, but they used stoning instead. Those who used the cross to execute criminals were the Romans. It was the Romans who did this dastardly deed (crucifying Christ Jesus son of Mary) on behalf of the Jews.

First, the Bible itself says that humans-- specifically the Jews-- killed Christ. Peter was inspired by the Holy Spirit to tell the Jews that they had indeed killed Christ. So even if the verse is merely meaning that the Jews did not kill Christ, it would be contradicting the Inspired word of God:

Acts 2:23

this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 2:36

Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

Acts 3:14-15

But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, [15] and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.

Secondly, the Qur'an says that Jesus was not killed or crcified on the cross but it only appeared to be Jesus. It also says that those who claim they killed Jesus on the cross are only conjecturing and don't know what they are talking about. Then it says that for sure they did not kill him.

Where does the Qur'an say clearly that Jesus died on the cross?