"SDAs should worship Allah"

[John317]

I like your answers, Shane.

[John317]

Hear, O Israel!

The Lord our God is One God!

Therefore you shall adore

the Lord your God

with all your heart,

with all your soul,

with all your mind,

and with all your strength.

[Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Mark 12:29-30, Quran 3:18]

An additional difference-- beyond those described in previous posts-- between the Bible and the Qur'an, is that the God of the Bible seeks a personal relationship with people. That is to say, God wants to be close to us and desires us to get to know him in a personal way---- whereas in the Qur'an, there is absolutely no suggestion that Allah can be known in a personal way. Allah merely makes claims and gives commandments, but he offers so evidence in support of what he claims. It contains no predictive prophecy except a general reference to a Day of Resurrection and a Judgment.

Allah does not enter into human history in any way, and there is no invitation for humans to enter into argument or reasoning with him, as there is in Isaiah and Job, for instance.

Notice also that in the Koran there is no command for God's people to love, forgive, and do good to their enemies. In fact, in the Qur'an Allah commands Muslims not to make friends with Jews and Christians.

[LifeHiscost]

Notice also that in the Koran there is no command for God's people to love, forgive, and do good to their enemies. In fact, in the Qur'an Allah commands Muslims not to make friends with Jews and Christians.

Again, having listened to some converted Muslims read from the Qu'ran, (If I am mistaken I will apologize for putting this post here) there is express command to the followers of the Qu'ran to not only seek out and kill the infidel (unbeliever of Allah or the Qu'ran) and if a member of the family converts to Christianity they are honor bound to take the life of the convert.

Perhaps someone might add more reliable information than this.

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."John 10:10 KJV

God blesses!

[John317]

Again, having listened to some converted Muslims read from the Qu'ran, (If I am mistaken I will apologize for putting this post here) there is express command to the followers of the Qu'ran to not only seek out and kill the infidel (unbeliever of Allah or the Qu'ran) and if a member of the family converts to Christianity they are honor bound to take the life of the convert.

Perhaps someone might add more reliable information than this.

Notice some key texts from the Qur'an on this subject, which still apply in modern times:

Chapter: Mohammad

[47.25] Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan [the Devil] has made it a light matter to them and gives them respite [or "and lengthens false hopes for them"].

[47.26] That is because they say to those who hate what Allah has revealed: We will obey you in some of the affairs; and Allah knows their secrets.

Chapter: The Victory

[48.27] Certainly Allah had shown to His Apostle [Mohammad] the vision with truth: you shall most certainly enter the Sacred Mosque, if Allah pleases, in security, (some) having their heads shaved and (others) having their hair cut, you shall not fear, but He knows what you do not know, so He brought about a near victory before that.

[48.28] He it is Who sent His Apostle [Mohammad] with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness.

[48.29] Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart [other translations

read "ruthless," "hard," "vehement," "severe" ] against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat [Torah] and their description in the Injeel [the Gospel]....

Sharia law treats apostasy as the unforgivable sin and therefore leaving Islam and converting to Christianity is punishable by death. I suspect that is why a Muslim friend of mine tells me that he is opposed to describing people as converting from one religion to another. Perhaps I would feel the same if I lived as he does in a Muslim country.

Note 48: 29 which predicts that Islam will "prevail over all the religions." It says Allah will "make it {"the true religion") prevail over all the religions."

[Dr. Shane]

in the Qur'an Allah commands Muslims not to make friends with Jews and Christians.

I was told that, in context, that command was given when Muslims were at war with Jews and Christians and that only the extremist sects of Islam interpret that to mean for all time.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

in the Qur'an Allah commands Muslims not to make friends with Jews and Christians.

I was told that, in context, that command was given when Muslims were at war with Jews and Christians and that only the extremist sects of Islam interpret that to mean for all time.

Here it is in context. You be the judge:

Quote:

[5.40] Do you not know that Allah-- His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth; He chastises whom He pleases; and forgives whom He pleases and Allah has power over all things.

[5.41] O Apostle [O Muhammad]! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths: We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.

[5.42] (They are) listeners of a lie, devourers of what is forbidden; therefore if they come to you, judge between them or turn aside from them, and if you turn aside from them, they shall not harm you in any way; and if you judge, judge between them with equity; surely Allah loves those who judge equitably.

[5.43] And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat [Torah] wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.

[5.44] Surely We revealed the Taurat [Torah]in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.

[5.45] And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.

[5.46] And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa [Jesus], son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat {Torah] and We gave him the Injeel [gospel] in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat [Torah] and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).

[5.47] And the followers of the Injeel [gospel]should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

[5.48] And We have revealed to you the Book [Qur'an] with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

[5.49] And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors.

[5.50] Is it then the judgment of (the times of) ignorance that they desire? And who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure?

[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

[5.52] But you will see those in whose hearts is a disease hastening towards them, saying: We fear lest a calamity should befall us; but it may be that Allah will bring the victory or a punish ment from Himself, so that they shall be regretting on account of what they hid in their souls.

[5.53] And those who believe will say: Are these they who swore by Allah with the most forcible of their oaths that they were most surely with you? Their deeds shall go for nothing, so they shall become losers.

[5.54] O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah's Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

[5.55] Only Allah is your Vali [friend]and His Apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

[5.56] And whoever takes Allah and His apostle and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant.

[5.57] O you who believe! do not take for guardians those who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among those who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers.

[5.58] And when you call to prayer they make it a mockery and a joke; this is because they are a people who do not understand.

[5.59] Say: O followers of the Book [Jews and Christians]! do you find fault with us (for aught) except that we believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed before, and that most of you are transgressors?

[5.60] Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan[the Devil]; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.

[5.61] And when they come to you, they say: We believe; and indeed they come in with unbelief and indeed they go forth with it; and Allah knows best what they concealed.

[Cosmin M.]

The Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God are one right?

Same goes for Allah and God.

They are just names.

[Stan]

>>> in the Qur'an Allah commands Muslims not to make friends with Jews and Christians.

This was at a time that Christians meant Catholics, as it does today for most Muslims, they were trying to 'convert' muslims, teaching them to worship and bow down to idols, eat pork, pray to the mother of God, drink alcohol and something else that escapes me. These were all considered abominations to Mohammad.

[John317]

The Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God are one right?

Same goes for Allah and God.

They are just names.

The names aren't the real issue, although names are actually important in the Bible. Names have real meaning. Yahweh means "the self-existent One." Jesus means "Yahweh saves." Allah means "the God."

But again, the focus of this discussion is not the names themselves, but the teaching of the Qur'an vs. the Bible with respect to what those books say about God.

Yes, God is One, but that is not the mathematical one. It is the One of unity. The Bible does not present God as one person but as three persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

On the other hand, the Qur'an teaches that God is a single person, and it says that Jesus was only a messanger, or apostle, of Allah. It claims that Allah rejects the Trinity and that those who worship Christ and believe in Him as their Lord and God will be punished along with the unbelievers.

The Qur'an teaches falsely that the Christian Trinity consists of the Father, the Son, and Mary. But of course that is a gross misunderstanding of the Trinity. The Trinity has never included Mary.

Finally, the Qur'an teaches that the Holy Spirit is not God but is the angel Gabriel. It says that the "Comforter" of John 14 is Muhammad. It teaches that the the Bible predicted the coming of Muhammad. Do you believe this?

In previous posts I have posted the refences for these teachings in the Qur'an, but if anyone wants to see where the Qur'an teaches them, let me know and I will cite the verses.

Here is what the Qur'an teaches about Allah:

The Unity

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

[112.1] Say: He, Allah, is One.

[112.2] Allah is He on Whom all depend.

[112.3] He begets not, nor is He begotten.

[112.4] And none is like Him [and equal to him is not anyone].

NOTE: This is a direct contradiction of the Bible's teaching that God did beget a Son, and that God the Son is begotten. It also contradicts the Bible's teaching that Jesus Christ is just like the Father and is equal to Him.

If indeed Allah is God the Father, it is impossible to imagine that He would inspire somone to write that no one is like Him or equal to Him, after He inspired His prophets in the Bible to say that Jesus Christ is just like Him and is equal to Him.

[doug yowell]

NOTE: This is a direct contradiction of the Bible's teaching that God did beget a Son, and that God the Son is begotten. It also contradicts the Bible's teaching that Jesus Christ is just like the Father and is equal to Him.

If indeed Allah is God the Father, it is impossible to imagine that He would inspire somone to write that no one is like Him or equal to Him, after He inspired His prophets in the Bible to say that Jesus Christ is just like Him and is equal to Him.

If I'm not mistaken,traditional Islam rejects the Bible as truth based on their belief that it's "facts" have been falsified by it's writers,i.e. not the "real" bible. If this is true it is a confession by the Muslim's themselves that the Allah they worship is not the Allah of the Bible.A major ontological difference.

[John317]

This was at a time that Christians meant Catholics, as it does today for most Muslims, they were trying to 'convert' muslims, teaching them to worship and bow down to idols, eat pork, pray to the mother of God, drink alcohol and something else that escapes me. These were all considered abominations to Mohammad.

The problem I have with this viewpoint is that it is not based on what the Qur'an itself says.

Mohammad said that the angel Gabriel dictated the words written in the Qur'an. They are not the viewpoint or beliefs of Mohammad. Do you believe that Jesus Christ sent His angel Gabriel to reveal the things to Mohammad that he wrote? And if not, who inspired Mohammad to write those things?

Are we are believe that Jesus Christ inspired Mohammad to tell billions of people not to have Christians as their friends?

Where does the Qur'an suggest that the command is temporary and is only due to perversions among Christians?

Can you show that your explanation is supported by the Qur'an?

Here is the statement in context:

Quote:

[5.49] And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors.

[5.50] Is it then the judgment of (the times of) ignorance that they desire? And who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure?

[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

[5.52] But you will see those in whose hearts is a disease hastening towards them, saying: We fear lest a calamity should befall us; but it may be that Allah will bring the victory or a punishment from Himself, so that they shall be regretting on account of what they hid in their souls.

[5.53] And those who believe will say: Are these they who swore by Allah with the most forcible of their oaths that they were most surely with you? Their deeds shall go for nothing, so they shall become losers.

[5.54] O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah's Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

[5.55] Only Allah is your Vali [friend]and His Apostle [Mohammad] and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

[5.56] And whoever takes Allah and His apostle and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant.

NOTE: The passage under consideration teaches that the reason Muslims should not take Christians as their friends is that Christians will lead Muslims to turn back from Islam and worship Christ as the Son of God and believe that Christ died on a cross to save them from their sins.

Question: Who benefits from having billions of people believe that God inspired the Qur'an's teaching that Christ is not God and that He did not die on the cross for the forgiveness of sin?

Who benefits from having people believe that God commanded the angels to bow down and worship Adam and that only Satan refused to obey this command of God?

(I think we can agree that if God actually did command the angels to bow down to Adam, it would have been wrong, because God would have been commanding angels to worship a creature, which is the very essence of idolatry. Therefore while the Qur'an claims to teach against false worship, it actually supports it and teaches that Satan alone refused to obey an unjust and wrong command of God. Satan was right and Allah wrong in that case.)

[John317]

If I'm not mistaken,traditional Islam rejects the Bible as truth based on their belief that it's "facts" have been falsified by it's writers,i.e. not the "real" bible. If this is true it is a confession by the Muslim's themselves that the Allah they worship is not the Allah of the Bible.A major ontological difference.

This is an important point. Islam does indeed reject the Bible as truth, but that is not true of the Qur'an itself or of Mohammad. Mohammad and the Qur'an have only positive things to say about the Bible, and this despite the fact that the Qur'an teaches many things contrary to the Bible.

Yet when it comes to the Qur'an's estimation of the Bible, it says that the books of Moses and the gospel of Jesus Christ are truth. The Qur'an even encourages Muslims to study the Bible and to listen to "the people of the book," i.e., Jews and Christians. (If you would like to see what the Qur'an actually says in this regard, let me know and I will be glad to post the verses or cite them.)

It was only AFTER the time of Mohammad (6th century AD)that Muslims began to teach that the Bible was corrupted or changed by the people of the Book.

This is despite the fact that Christians can easily prove (and have long since proved) beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bible we have today is identical to the Bible of the 6th century when the Qur'an was written.

These things are indisputable proof that from whatever source Mohammad received the Qur'an, it was not from God, because God would not have inspired Mohammad to write fasehoods such as that Ishmael was the son of promise and that Jesus Christ did not die on the cross for the sins of the world.

If anyone wants to show evidence that the Qur'an does not teach falsehood about Christ, I would welcome any evidence they can show from the Qur'an itself that it teaches the same as the Bible does in regard to Jesus Christ.

[Guest]

As I read it: Ishmael's descendants are "heathen" the god of the heathen is not our God.

All roads do not lead to Heaven. It is by the precious blood of Jesus that those that are to be saved will be saved.

Amen Henry!

[Woody]

Amen Henry!

You can call me Redwood

You can call me Red

You can call me Woody.

But I am not Henry

[Woody]

Okay. Thanks for fixing that Richard. I have to watch you like a hawk.

[Guest]

I see...(said the blind man)

[Woody]

I see...(said the blind man)

xx

Praise God. Finally. I've been waiting for you to b able 2 see. Yes, I had previously known you to be like my dog.

[Dr. Waite]

Jews, Muslims and Christians have fairly different ideas on who God is. I'm sure Dwight would be pleasantly surprised that Jews and Muslims reject trinitarian view of God. Neither do they accept incarnation. All three religions have fairly different ideas of who God is and what He is about.

Both Christianity and Islam are sects of Judaism as far as they relate to OT. All three religions have a fairly different views of God.

ALTHOUGH SO CALLED CHRISTIANS WHO BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY DOCTRINE AND MUSLIMS HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS OF GOD, THERE ARE SOME COMMONALITIES. MOST SO CALLED CHRISTIANS WHO BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY DOCTRINE REJECT THE BELIEF THAT GOD BEGAT A DIVINE SON. ACCORDING TO HEBREWS CHAPTER ONE, GOD HAS A DIVINE SON WHICH WAS BEGOTTEN. MUSLUMS ALSO REJECTS THE BELIEF THAT GOD BEGAT A DIVINE SON.

[SivartM]

ALTHOUGH SO CALLED CHRISTIANS WHO BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY DOCTRINE AND MUSLIMS HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS OF GOD, THERE ARE SOME COMMONALITIES. MOST SO CALLED CHRISTIANS WHO BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY DOCTRINE REJECT THE BELIEF THAT GOD BEGAT A DIVINE SON. ACCORDING TO HEBREWS CHAPTER ONE, GOD HAS A DIVINE SON WHICH WAS BEGOTTEN. MUSLUMS ALSO REJECTS THE BELIEF THAT GOD BEGAT A DIVINE SON.

It might be a bit easier to read if you turned off caps lock, just so you know.

Anyway, trinitarians actually do believe that God "begat" a son; they just define it a bit differently than unitarians. In my opinion it's a fruitless argument (is God going to penalize someone for not knowing how many "persons" he is? will one miss out on anything from having the wrong number? what if we're all wrong and God is pi?), and one that we shouldn't discuss to the point of doubting that others are true Christians over a mathematical difference.

EDIT: On the "God is pi" note, I suppose since the Bible says that pi = 3, I guess trinitarians do believe that God is pi.

[John317]

ALTHOUGH SO CALLED CHRISTIANS WHO BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY DOCTRINE AND MUSLIMS HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS OF GOD, THERE ARE SOME COMMONALITIES. MOST SO CALLED CHRISTIANS WHO BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY DOCTRINE REJECT THE BELIEF THAT GOD BEGAT A DIVINE SON. ACCORDING TO HEBREWS CHAPTER ONE, GOD HAS A DIVINE SON WHICH WAS BEGOTTEN. MUSLUMS ALSO REJECTS THE BELIEF THAT GOD BEGAT A DIVINE SON.

Believers in the Trinity don't reject the fact that God the Father begot a Son, but there can be no doubt that the Qur'an does deny it. The Bible teaches it plainly in the following verse, among others:

Hebrews 1:5

For to which of the angels did God ever say,

"You are my Son,

today I have begotten you"?

Or again,

"I will be to him a father,

and he shall be to me a son"?

The eternal Son of God was begotten of God at the Incarnation and birth of Christ.

Believers in Christ also become chidlren of God, but not in a literal sense. Through the Holy Spirit we take on the seed of God and become more and more like Him, but we are literally the sons of our earthly parents. So to be a child of God has reference to our relationship to God and refers to the fact that we are heirs of God through Christ. We reflect God's character when we are filled with His Spirit.

What believers in the Trinity reject is the notion that Jesus Christ is a created being or that He derived His life from any source outside Himself. We believe as both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy teach, that Christ is eternal, infinite, omnipotent, and self-existent.

The Muslims deny that Christ was divine and that He existed in heaven before coming to this earth. Virtually all Christians, however, accept this since it is so plainly taught in the Scriptures.

[Woody]

Quote:

I suppose since the Bible says that pi = 3,

Okay SivartM. Explain this one to me. I just did a search and couldn't find any mention of pi in the Bible.

Explain thyself

[Guest]

John, so you're saying God didn't have a son until Jesus was born?

[doug yowell]

I see...(said the blind man)

...and then he picked up his hammer and saw.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I see...(said the blind man)

...and then he picked up his hammer and saw.

I hear ya, said the deaf mute.

[SivartM]

Okay SivartM. Explain this one to me. I just did a search and couldn't find any mention of pi in the Bible.

Explain thyself

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jbenson2/2379378629/

Basically, 1 Kings 7:23 says that the circumference of a circular basin was 30 cubits, and the diameter was 10 cubits, and since pi is the circumference divided by the diameter, pi would equal 3.

An critical evaluation (because it really is a silly idea): http://www.purplemath.com/modules/bibleval.htm