"SDAs should worship Allah"

[SivartM]

I've seen pictures of people who looked just as happy who were worshiping Allah.

[Dr. Shane]

Feel free to share those pics. I really like the music ones with everyone singing and playing instruments.

[John317]

...The highlight of Muslims, is to have Jesus return and the start of judgement day.

What do Muslims believe will happen when Jesus returns?

It's a completely different view in the Qur'an than in the Bible.

There is no clear reference to the Second Coming of Christ in the Qur'an as there is in the Bible. There are many clear references to the Day of Resurrection and the Judgment, but Allah is the Judge, not Christ. Jesus will be a witness against the people of the book, i.e., against the Jews and against the Christians. As said before, the Qur'an says straightforwardly that Jesus Christ is only an apostle of Allah and not the Son of God, neither the son of Allah.

For instance, read the following carefully:

Quote:

The Women

[4.153] The followers of the Book ask you to bring down to them a book from heaven; so indeed they demanded of Musa [Moses] a greater thing than that, for they said: Show us Allah manifestly; so the lightning overtook them on account of their injustice. Then they took the calf (for a god), after clear signs had come to them, but We pardoned this; and We gave to Musa [Moses] clear authority.

[4.154] And We lifted the mountain (Sinai) over them at their covenant. And We said to them: Enter the door making obeisance; and We said to them: Do not exceed the limits of the Sabbath, and We made with them a firm covenant.

[4.155] Therefore, for their breaking their covenant and their disbelief in the communications of Allah and their killing the prophets wrongfully and their saying: Our hearts are covered; nay! Allah set a seal upon them owing to their unbelief, so they shall not believe except a few.

[4.156] And for their unbelief and for their having uttered against Marium [Mary, mother of Jesus] a grievous calumny.

[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa [Jesus] son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa)[Or, "they had only his likeness," or literally, "one was made to appear to them like (Jesus)"] and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

[4.158] Nay! Allah took him up t rejects the Trinity and the idea that Jesus o Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

[4.159] And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them. Translation by M.H. Shakir

NOTE: Observe that it says all of the people of the Book certainly believe [wrongly] before they die that Jesus was killed on the cross but that at the day of resurrection, Jesus will be a witness against the people of the Book who had believed in his death on the cross.

This is made clear in many lines of the Qur'an which state over again that the people of the book are wrong to believe that Jesus is the son of God or that Allah has a son.

Here's one such verse that clearly rejects the Trinity and the teaching that Jesus is divine:

[5.73] Certainly they disbelieve [they do blaspheme] who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three [Trinity]; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.

The Qur'an prohibits the worship of Christ:

[5.116] And when Allah will say: O Isa [Jesus] son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.

[5.117] I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.

NOTE: The Qur'an denies that humans killed Jesus on the cross but it says that Allah caused Jesus to die. Muslims therefore believe that Jesus died a natural death.

[John317]

Sure, SivartM. I don't think anyone would claim that only Christians are happy.

I was "happy" when I wasn't a Christian. I didn't choose Christ because I was sad or unhappy. I chose Christ because I believe Him and the Bible to be the truth. But having chosen Him, there's no comparison between the happiness I felt before and the joyfulness that Christ gives. Without Christ, we have happiness as long as things are going our way; whereas when we really have Christ in our life, we have a joyfulness irrespective of our circumstances. So happiness is conditional but joy in the Spirit is unconditional and for ever.

[hch]

This is made clear in many lines of the Qur'an which state over again that the people of the book are wrong to believe that Jesus is the son of God or that Allah has a son.

[mat]

The lack of faith ...resulted in the birth of Ishmael, mingling of the righteous seed with the ungodly. {CC 57.3}

[John317]

Yes, indeed, hch. Those are excellent points and terrific quotes. Thank you very much. :-)

[John317]

A warm welcme to the Adventist Forum, mat. I hope you visit us often and receive blessings each time you do.

[mat]

A warm welcme to the Adventist Forum, mat. I hope you visit us often and receive blessings each time you do.

[hch]

Yes, indeed, hch. Those are excellent points and terrific quotes. Thank you very much. :-)

Praise God. You are most welcome.

Anyone can type Ishmael into the data base and read what the Spirit of Prophecy has to say about him.

There is more. but that seemed most fitting.

As I read it: Ishmael's descendants are "heathen" the god of the heathen is not our God.

All roads do not lead to Heaven. It is by the precious blood of Jesus that those that are to be saved will be saved.

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: EGW

Abraham's early teachings had not been without effect upon Ishmael, but the influence of his wives resulted in establishing idolatry in his family. Separated from his father, and embittered by the strife and contention of a home destitute of the love and fear of God, Ishmael was driven to choose the wild, marauding life of the desert chief, "his hand" "against every man, and every man's hand against him." Genesis 16:12. In his latter days he repented of his evil ways and returned to his father's God, but the stamp of character given to his posterity remained. The powerful nation descended from him were a turbulent, heathen people, who were ever an annoyance and affliction to the descendants of Isaac. {PP 174.1}

That should say enough

A few quotes can never say enough about an entire group of people, separated by thousands of years from the people whom the quotes concern.

[Stan]

Amen!

[Dr. Shane]

As I read it: Ishmael's descendants are "heathen" the god of the heathen is not our God.

All roads do not lead to Heaven. It is by the precious blood of Jesus that those that are to be saved will be saved.

I agree with the general sentiment but do think it is important to bare in mind that many heathen people will be in heaven. Yet they are too saved by the blood of Jesus although they do not realize it in this life.

I think the whole reason someone like Pastor Nelson would want to claim that Adventists worship "Allah" is so we can draw some Muslims into our faith. I do not believe the purpose is to minimize the differences. Muslims *claim* to worship the God of Abraham. On that pretext we can say "Hey, we do too."

While in college, my Muslim friends were most interested in Ellen White. They believed they knew more than Christians because they believed in the *last* prophet. Upon learning about Ellen White, they became intrigued and wanted to learn more.

[Woody]

Excellent Shane

Quote:

I agree with the general sentiment but do think it is important to bare in mind that many heathen people will be in heaven.

[phkrause]

Excellent Shane

Quote:

I agree with the general sentiment but do think it is important to bare in mind that many heathen people will be in heaven.

[Woody]

lol.

pk U always outdo me.

[John317]

I've been dialoguing for about two months with a Muslim man who grew up in Antioch in Turkey, which is mentioned in Acts 13: 42-44. He now works in Bahrain and attends an SDA church. He claims to believe in the Bible and in Ellen White, but recently he told me that if the Bible or Ellen White teach the Trinity, he would throw them out. (This of course means that the Bible is not really his measuring stick of truth but his own opinion is still his standard.) He's only been studying the Bible for 2 years, and when he first began reading it, he said he made fun of it, but after reading it for a while, he began to believe it. About that time He met an SDA woman who introduced him to EGW, so he's been reading her writings as well as the Bible. However, he believes that the SDA view of the Godhead is from the devil and is looking for a non-Trinitarian pastor who will baptize him.

He says he wants to teach the gospel to the Muslims when he knows tbe Bible better, and I am encouraging him to do that.

[John317]

The Noble Qur'an is just as inspired as the Judeo-Christian Bible is.

This is a claim made by some but what is the evidence of it?

If it is equally inspired as the Bible, why doesn't it teach that humanity is fallen and is in need of a Savior? There is no indication at all in the Qur'an that humanity has a fallen, sinful nature, or that the shedding of blood is necessary for an atonement, the remission of sin.

Why also does it teach that the central focus of the Bible-- the crucifixion of the Prince of life--did not even occur?

Why also does it teach that God is a single person and that the Trinity does not exist?

The Bible teaches that there is one God but that this one God is manifested in three divine persons. The Qur'an denies this central teaching and says that those who worship Christ and teach that He is God will be punished along with all the other unbelievers. It also teaches that the Holy Spirit is an angel-- not the third person of the Godhead-- and that the Comforter of John 14 refers to Muhammad.

Consider the following:

[23.91] Never did Allah take to Himself a son, and never was there with him any (other) god-- in that case would each god have certainly taken away what he created, and some of them would certainly have overpowered others; glory be to Allah above what they describe!

[17.111] And say: (All) praise is due to Allah, Who has not taken a son and Who has not a partner in the kingdom, and Who has not a helper to save Him from disgrace; and proclaim His greatness magnifying (Him).

These verses directly contradict the Bible's teaching found in John 1:1, that the Word was God and that the Word was with God. They also contradict John 3: 16 and a number of other verses which say that God has begotten a Son, who is Himself God.

Are these things the kind of teachings that you-- or anyone else on the Adventist Forum-- believe the true God would inspire a prophet to write?

[Stan]

Hear, O Israel!

The Lord our God is One God!

Therefore you shall adore

the Lord your God

with all your heart,

with all your soul,

with all your mind,

and with all your strength.

[Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Mark 12:29-30, Quran 3:18]

[John317]

Hear, O Israel!

The Lord our God is One God!

Therefore you shall adore

the Lord your God

with all your heart,

with all your soul,

with all your mind,

and with all your strength.

[Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Mark 12:29-30, Quran 3:18]

The difference between the Bible and the Qur'an is that the Bible isn't saying that God is a single person, but the Qur'an is.

The Qur'an denies that God is a Trinity, whereas the Bible and Ellen White both teach that God is a Triune God, not a single person.

The Qur'an denies the Seventh-day Adventist understanding of the Godhead as expressed in the FB #2.

The use of "one" in Deut. 6: 4 is the same word that is used in Gen. 2: 24, where it speaks of two people being "one flesh."

Similarly, Christ says He is "one" with the Father, but that does not mean Christ is the same person as the Father. Christ and the Father are distinct persons but they are one in thought, purpose, and character.

Notice that Ephesians 4: 6 says that there is one God and Father.

The Father is God.

The Son is God. (John 1: 1; Titus 2: 13; Heb. 1: 8)

The Holy Spirit is God. (Acts 5: 3,4)

Eph. 4: 4 says there is one Spirit. The Holy Spirit is Spirit and the Father is Spirit. John 4: 24.

Eph. 4: 5 says there is one Lord.

But we know that the Bible often calls both the Father and the Son "Lord."

These things prove that when Deut. 6: 4 says the Lord our God is one Lord, it doesn't mean that God is a single person but that Yahweh alone is our God. Jesus Christ Himself is Yahweh. So is the Father and so is the Holy Spirit. As Ellen shite says, "there are three living persons in the heavenly trio." Trio=trinity=three. She also defines the eternal Godhead as consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Notice the Jewish Publication Society's translation of Deut. 6: 4--

Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord alone.

Why is it important and even essential that the Messiah be very God Himself, and not merely a human being?

John 1:18

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known [or explained him].

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Hebrews 1:2-4

but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. [3] He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

[John317]

..it is important to bare in mind that many heathen people will be in heaven. Yet they are too saved by the blood of Jesus although they do not realize it in this life.

Yes, everyone who is saved will be in the kingdom because of the blood of Christ.

But what is the strongest evidence in the Bible that there will be many heathen people in heaven?

I wouldn't dispute Ellen White's statement that there will be people saved who didn't know of the gospel, but I think it's important to accept the Bible's view that the hearing and acceptance of the gospel is essential to salvation. Also, we need to keep in mind that Jesus said except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he "shall in no wise" enter the kingdom of God.

And Paul was inspired to write:

Quote:

Romans 10:13-17

For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

[14] But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? [15] And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" [16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" [17] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

If people can be saved apart from the preaching and acceptance of the gospel, wouldn't the proclamation of the gospel, and the gospel commission itself, lose much of its urgency?

[hch]

For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise; Gal 4:22

...

Thanks for filling in the blanks Mat.

Oh that we would always remember God's promises are true and very true and not depend on the arm of the flesh

[hch]

Originally Posted By: hch

As I read it: Ishmael's descendants are "heathen" the god of the heathen is not our God.

All roads do not lead to Heaven. It is by the precious blood of Jesus that those that are to be saved will be saved.

I agree with the general sentiment but do think it is important to bare in mind that many heathen people will be in heaven. Yet they are too saved by the blood of Jesus although they do not realize it in this life.

I think the whole reason someone like Pastor Nelson would want to claim that Adventists worship "Allah" is so we can draw some Muslims into our faith. I do not believe the purpose is to minimize the differences. Muslims *claim* to worship the God of Abraham. On that pretext we can say "Hey, we do too."

While in college, my Muslim friends were most interested in Ellen White. They believed they knew more than Christians because they believed in the *last* prophet. Upon learning about Ellen White, they became intrigued and wanted to learn more.

Even the Spirit of prophecy teaches that we should emphasize points in common when seeking to win others. But there is the danger.

Muslims do not eat pork, smoke, and they are devout in their prayer life. Those are great points to stress that SDA's have in common.

And our God has many names. But the Creator of the universe is not a heathen god.

When EGW applied the word heathen to the descendants of Ishmeal the dictionary definition was:

HEATHEN, n. [Gr. from heath, that is, one who lives in the country or woods, as pagan from pagus, a village.]

1. A pagan; a Gentile; one who worships idols, or is unacquainted with the true God. In the Scriptures, the word seems to comprehend all nations except the Jews or Israelites, as they were all strangers to the true religion, and all addicted to idolatry. The word may now be applied perhaps to all nations, except to Christians and Mohammedans.

For Ishmael to be the father of a people that have become Mohammedans, her definition trumps the dictionary's conclusion that Muslims are not heathens.

The point: a heathen god is not the "true God"

When the early church allowed heathen teachings in, the truth soon was cast out.

[Dr. Shane]

But what is the strongest evidence in the Bible that there will be many heathen people in heaven?

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: John317

But what is the strongest evidence in the Bible that there will be many heathen people in heaven?

There will be no heathen (unbeliever) in the Kingdom of Heaven.

"When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.

Now we see things imperfectly as in a cloudy mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity.

All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.

Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love."1 Corinthians 13:11-13 NLT

If the perceived unbeliever down here, has unselfish love for others, that love will be transported to Heaven, minus the burden of sin we carry in this life.

"What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."Mark 10:8 KJV

While the context here is the marriage relationship, the principle remains the same when it comes to a gift given by God, unless that gift is rejected. A lack of knowledge will keep no man out of the Kingdom. Otherwise we would all be lost. It is the rejection of that known to be true which is instrumental in determining a person's fitness for entering the Kingdom of Heaven.

God blesses!