"SDAs should worship Allah"

[John317]

Good points, SLSDA. And welcome to the Adventist Forum!! :-)

[John317]

I have no problem with 1 John 5: 7. It doesn't matter to me if it was part of the original or not. But it was apparently a marginal note or saying that eventually worked its way into the main text. This happened sometimes in the Old Testament as well. They are called "glosses." A scribe might write a note in the margin by way of explanation or commentary, and then soonrer or later, it might be copied into the text itself.

These are usually rather easy to identify because we can determine when they first appeared in the ancient manuscripts. In the case of 1 John 5: 7, it was known back as far as the third century AD, but it wasn't referred to as a part of the Scriptures.

There is no reason to believe it was purposely taken out of the Scriptures because the church at that time would certainly have used it in their controversies against the Arians, yet it is never quoted during those times as a part of the Bible.

The bottom line is that we can't be certain it was not originally written by John, but the evidence seems to lean in favor of its having been added to the text long after the time of John. In any case, however, it doesn't contradict the rest of the Bible. I simply don't use it in my discussions about the Trinity, except to mention that it was a saying in the early church and that Erasmus included it in his Greek NT in the 1500s.

I believe 1 John 5: 5-8 reads better without it:

Compare the KJV with the ESV:

1 John 5:5-9

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? [6] This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. [7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. [8] And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. [9] If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

1 John 5:5-9

Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

[6] This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. [7] For there are three that testify: [8] the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. [9] If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son.

Notice that John is talking about the water and the blood and the Spirit, all three of which are on the earth witnessing to Christ. But then 5: 7 talks about the witnesses in heaven. It really seems out of place to me.

[LifeHiscost]

One thing we can be sure of. The only time Jesus was ever separated from His Father, He died. If the Godhead's person were not separate and distinct it would seem that when One died, all Three would have died. However that explanation is from fallen human logic, though possibly guided by the Holy Spirit, so would be problematic in definitive Truth.

Here is when we will know for sure.

"...for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;"1 Corinthians 13:11 YLT

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Notice that John is talking about the water and the blood and the Spirit, all three of which are on the earth witnessing to Christ. But then 5: 7 talks about the witnesses in heaven. It really seems out of place to me.

Would it be so much different as to be seen as out of place when we also look at Jesus as one member of the Godhead and yet are given this below as one of our greatest hopes.

"To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."Colossians 1:27 NKJV

Or how about this one!

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ."1 Corinthians 12:12 KJV

In discussions of the manifold wisdom of God, it is doubtful we will ever find the wholeness of the absolute Truth, until we are at last bonded with Jesus without sin.

God blesses!

[John317]

You're right, but the reason I said what I did about 1 John 5: 7 is that it's significant if a passage makes good sense-- or even better sense-- when the part that is believed to have been added is deleted. It tends to support the view that the original sentence was changed. On the other hand, if 1 John 5: 7 were necessary to make good sense and if deleting it caused it to seem unnatural, it would be very strong evidence that it was an original part of the book.

[John317]

If the Godhead's person were not separate and distinct it would seem that when One died, all Three would have died. ....

Only one person of the eternal Godhead could die, and that was the Son, because He took on a human body for the very purpose of dying. The other two of the holiest persons of heaven could not possibly have died. Deity cannot die. One thing that God the Father cannot possibly do is will Himself into non-existence.

[John317]

... I can t believe how SDA's think that Islam is coming from the same God as the God of the bible.

Nor I, ts. I think one explanation is that they haven't studied the Qur'an very closely. Another explanation is that they want very much to believe it. Apparently some people believe that it's best to say anything that will bring peace, and that it's wrong to say things that will cause others to be angry or feel offended.

One thing I find ironic is that some of the same people who have doubts that Ellen White's writings are reliable because she seems at times to contradict the Bible are among those who claim the Qur'an may well be inspired by the God of the Bible, despite the Qur'an's many clear contradictions of the Christian Scriptures.

[John317]

...i find some statements in this thread plainly discouraging and doesn't help further our church's dialogue with our Muslim brothers and sisters through AMR (Adventist Muslim Relations).

But more importantly, are they true statements? Don't we care about the truth-- or are we primarily concerned with how the truth is received rather than with just telling the truth?

I'd like to know what you think of the following evidence, and also what AMR thinks of it (if you've any idea):

Do you believe the Qur'an to be inspired of God? Remember that Muhammad took the words as dictated by a spirit that claimed to be from Allah, and the Qur'an claims to be the most dependable communication from God:

1) Allah commanded the angels to worship Adam, but Satan was the only one who refused to obey God's command to worship a creature:

[2.33] He [Allah] said: O Adam! inform them of their names. Then when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not say to you that I surely know what is ghaib [hidden things] in the heavens and the earth and (that) I know what you manifest and what you hide?

[2.34] And when We said to the angels: Bow down and worship Adam, then worshipped they all, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

2)No other God has ever been with Allah. Allah is a solitary being.

[23.91] Never did Allah take to Himself a son, and never was there with him any (other) God-- in that case would each god have certainly taken away what he created, and some of them would certainly have overpowered others; glory be to Allah above what they describe!

But the Bible teaches:

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:18

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

On the basis of the above, would you recommend that Seventh-day Adventists worship Allah, the God who commanded that the angels bow down to Adam?

[Stan]

ever read the quirky comment they quote that are in the Bible?

Allah is the God of Abraham, the creator of the world.

[Stan]

All three religions have fairly different ideas of who God is and what He is about.

Both Christianity and Islam are sects of Judaism as far as they relate to OT. All three religions have a fairly different views of God.

Almost every denomination teaches a different personality of God.

The Great Controversy theme is to vindicate God's Character.

The highlight of Muslims, is to have Jesus return and the start of judgement day.

[hch]

Originally Posted By: fccool

All three religions have fairly different ideas of who God is and what He is about.

Both Christianity and Islam are sects of Judaism as far as they relate to OT. All three religions have a fairly different views of God.

Almost every denomination teaches a different personality of God.

The Great Controversy theme is to vindicate God's Character.

The highlight of Muslims, is to have Jesus return and the start of judgement day.

Muslims worship allah. They teach that he is all sufficient and that the blood of Jesus is not required for salvation.

Beware of mixing the holy with the unholy. That is an abomination in God's sight.

[Stan]

Muslims to the Koran are like most Christians to the Bible, they read about it, but not it.

According to the Koran, because Christ was divine, the gestation period only took something like 2 months.

27 of our 28 fundamental beliefs, including salvation, can be proved in the Bible.

Can you guess which one cannot?

This info, did not come from me, but from an Islamic Scholar, an Imam who became an Adventist.

The thing that will happen just before Christ returns, is "The People of the Book" (meaning Bible) will come forth and explain the Biblical Prophecies to them, pockets of Muslim, including some leaders, are point to us, as those people.

[LifeHiscost]

You're right, but the reason I said what I did about 1 John 5: 7 is that it's significant if a passage makes good sense-- or even better sense-- when the part that is believed to have been added is deleted. It tends to support the view that the original sentence was changed. On the other hand, if 1 John 5: 7 were necessary to make good sense and if deleting it caused it to seem unnatural, it would be very strong evidence that it was an original part of the book.

I understand, and I agree with you. My biggest problem and perhaps weakness(may or may not be), is that I do not have the patience to go through the plethora of posts necessary to arrive at that Truth, especially when it, "that Truth", will appear at just the right time merely by reading the Holy Scripture and praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit to reveal the Truth as it is in Jesus, and very often while perusing just one or a few Scripture texts in a moment of time while drinking from the Fountain of Life.

"

Jesus replied, “If you only knew the gift God has for you and who you are speaking to, you would ask me, and I would give you living water.”

Jesus replied, “Anyone who drinks this water will soon become thirsty again. But those who drink the water I give will never be thirsty again. It becomes a fresh, bubbling spring within them, giving them eternal life.”

Jesus replied, “Believe me, dear woman, the time is coming when it will no longer matter whether you worship the Father on this mountain or in Jerusalem. You Samaritans know very little about the one you worship, while we Jews know all about him, for salvation comes through the Jews. But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way. For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.”"

John 4:10,13,14,21-24 NLT

God blesses!

[John317]

According to the Koran, because Christ was divine, the gestation period only took something like 2 months.

Where does the Qur'an teach that Christ is divine?

Based on what I've read in the Qur'an, it categorically denies that Christ was anything but a apostle of Allah "like the apostles who had passed away."

For instance, there are these statements:

[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

[5.75] The Messiah, son of Marium is but an apostle; apostles [the like of whom] before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away.

NOTE: the Qur'an says both Mary and Jesus "used to eat food" in order to show that they were not divine beings but merely human beings like other humans.

When the Qur'an calls Jesus "the Messiah," it doesn't use that term in the same way that the Bible uses it. In the Bible, Jesus is called "the Messiah" in the sense that He was pre-existent, or lived in heaven before being born as a human being on earth. The Qur'an uses "Messiah" differently just as it uses "Holy Spirit" differently than the Bible uses it. In the Qur'an, "Holy Spirit" is a reference to the angel Gabriel, and "the Comforter" is a reference to the "prophet Muhammad."

(By the way, there's an SDA who posts on this Forum who also believes that the Holy Spirit sometimes refers to the angel Gabriel. I don't believe this member was ever a Muslim.)

[John317]

..27 of our 28 fundamental beliefs, including salvation, can be proved in the Bible.

Can you guess which one cannot?

Do you mean that 27 of 28 can be proved in the Qur'an?

I believe all 28 of our FB have strong evidence, or proof, in the Bible.

But if it is being said that all 27 of 28 FB can be proved in the Qur'an, I would like to see the evidence of such a claim directly from the Qur'an. If it is true, that would be wonderful, but it needs to be shown.

For instance, where does it teach that the Holy Spirit is God, or divine, and where does it teach that Christ is divine and created the world and died in order to save humanity?

[John317]

Almost every denomination teaches a different personality of God.

Almost every person conceives of God in a slightly different way, but the essential attributes and nature of God is the same in most of the Christian denominations. For example, there is general agreement among Christians that Jesus Christ is divine and that He came to this earth from heaven to die in order to save humans. They believe he was resurrected from death and that He ascended to heaven where He is our High Priest on the throne of God. He will return in glory for His church and will destroy the wicked. Christ is Lord and Judge, the Creator of heaven and earth, together with the Father and the Holy Spirit. All of these things are denied by the Qur'an.

When it comes to the differences among Christians, those differences are not due to the statements found in the Bible. They are due to different understandings of what the Bible says. But the Bible itself is clear on these primary doctrines. For example, the Bible teaches that "the Word was with God and Word was God."

But when it comes to the Qur'an, we're talking about what the Qur'an actually teaches. For instance, it teaches that Allah commanded the angels to bow down to Adam, a creature, and that Satan was the only one who refused to bow down to Adam. It also teaches that Jesus was only an apostle and that He was not crucified and killed on the cross. (The references and quotes are given on a previous post.)

If someone claims that the Qur'an says Jesus died for our sins or that He was the divine Son of God, where do they say the Qur'an teaches this?

[BSW]

I thought "God" was suppose to be called "Father", as shown by our loving Savior "brother" King. So I worship my heavenly Father by faith in His Spirit which comes only through Christ Jesus.Who incidentally is the "Father" of my faith.

It is the Sin-Bearer that alone saves souls, NOT the Father. We cannot even approach the Father except through Christ. It is He (Christ) that purifies our voice and presents it to our heavenly Father, though I am instructed to title my prayer to His (Christ's) Father. We then through faith believe we have become adopted into the beloved.

The only true God is completely and utterly unapproachable without Jesus Christ. I can only worship and will only worship my heavenly Father as I worship His Son. I as a Christian cannot separate the two.

If Pastor Nelson wants to worship "Allah" I say let him be. We will find out one day if it pans out for him.

On a personal note I think Pastor Nelson is more on an ecumenical journey rather than a translatory one. However, I hope I am wrong.

[John317]

This info, did not come from me, but from an Islamic Scholar, an Imam who became an Adventist.

Do you know if this Islamic Scholar still considers himself a Muslim and if he believes the Qur'an was inspired by God?

The reason I ask is that a Muslim (from Bahrain) with whom I am dialoguing on FB goes to an SDA church and claims to believe in the Bible and the SOP, yet he also says that he won't believe anything unless it is in the Qur'an. So he rejects the Trinity as SDAs teach it. He believes our view of the Godhead is a lie from Satan. He has told me that he will also reject the Bible and the SOP if they teach the Trinity.

Some Muslims reject Allah when they convert to Christ and Christianity, whereas others say they continue to worship Allah and to believe in the inspiration of the Qur'an. So there is much confusion over this issue.

[John317]

I thought "God" was suppose to be called "Father", as shown by our loving Savior "brother" King.

It's true that usually when the Bible refers to "God," we think of the Father, but this is not always the case. The word "God" and even "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" (or, in Hebrew, "adonai") is often used in reference to Christ, and a few times it has reference to the Holy Spirit.

I would be OK with the word "Allah" for God except that the Allah of the Qur'an says things that we know the God of the Bible never would say. For instance, we know the God of the Bible would never command the angels to bow down to Adam. Nor would the God of the Bible (which includes Jesus Christ, of course) say that Ishmael was the son that Abraham was commanded to sacrifice. And I have not even mentioned the statements in the Qur'an by Allah which deny that Christ was crucified or that Christ is the Son of God.

The problem as I see it is that some SDAs evidently teach that the Qur'an teaches the truth and was inspired by the same God who inspired the Bible.

I have no problem with the term "Allah" itself meaning "God," but I do with the teaching that this Allah is the same God who inspired the Bible and that the Qur'an teaches the truth. If it teaches the truth, why does it also contain things that are not true and which flatly contradict the Bible?

Let's talk about it.

[John317]

The thing that will happen just before Christ returns, is "The People of the Book" (meaning Bible) will come forth and explain the Biblical Prophecies to them, pockets of Muslim, including some leaders, are point to us, as those people.

I do believe this, and have already seen it happening, but some of those Muslims are confused because they continue to believe the Qur'an is inspired and therefore reject teachings such as the Trinity. One of them told me recently that he would reject the Bible and Ellen White if those sources teach the Trinity. He claims the Qur'an was inspired by God to fight against the false teachings of paganism, and he includes among those false teachings the belief that Christ and the Holy Spirit are the second and third persons of the Godhead.

These are some of the reasons that I see the continuing belief in the inspiration of the Qur'an as a danger. It seems to me that Muslims who become SDAs are sometimes being taught (wrongly) that the Qur'an is inspired by the God of the Bible and therefore it is to be used as a doctrinal authority. I believe this is wrong and should not be the case.

I would use the Qur'an to show Muslims some of the truths of the Bible are contained in the Qur'an, but I would never do it in a way that would lead them to believe the Qur'an was inspired by God or that it is a dependable guide to the truth. It contradicts the truth in some very fundamental and significant ways.

I'm prepared to show those ways by quoting directly from the Qur'an itself and compare its teachings with the clear teachings of the Bible. I've already done this in some of my previous posts on this thread.

[BSW]

The word "Allah" just brings with it a whole host of emotions. I mean if I said I worship Allah, most everyone would think that my faith is based on the Koran (or however it's spelled). If a Pastor of a Christian Church uses it I would assume it would be because they would be after some kind of "shock" value, which in my opinion, doesn't have much value, but would be a shock.

If I say I can only approach/worship a heavenly Father through the sin offering sacrifice by a loving Savior on Calvary, who rose from the dead to intercede on my behalf most everyone would think I was Christian.

Words do mean things. Personally I don't like using the word "God" when it comes to the gospel message. It has become too broad a word for me. I like using words/terms of endearment (Father, Savior, Creator, Spirit ect.). They seem to work better for me when I present the gospel, and they are warm and fuzzy.

Not that Pastor Nelson would ever listen to little 'ol me, but I would coounsel him to not say he worships "Allah". But that's probably not a "shock" to anyone reading this.

[John317]

I think you've made some very valid and valuable points here.

[Dr. Shane]

I kind of like to use the word "Dios" myself.

[John317]

You and me both, Shane. We use it a lot in family worship, along with "dios padre."

[BSW]

They look very happy.

As they should.

To worship the Father in Jesus' name by faith in a Holy Sweet Spirit with a pure heart is eternal.

It has no price, just life.