La Sierra University makes a significant statement

[Woody]

Good question: Are we ready for our 'final day'?

I can't speak for others' lives ... But I am ready.

I am full of sin and ready to be made clean.

Come Lord Take us home

[Woody]

"And because I am a sinner I am entitled to come to Christ. I am sinful and polluted, but He suffered humiliation and death, and exhausted the curse that belongs to me. I come. I believe. I claim His sure promise, "Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life' (John 3:16)." {1SM 325.1}

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

God will charge those who unwisely expose the mistakes of their brethren with sin of far greater magnitude than He will charge the one who makes a misstep. Criticism and condemnation of the brethren are counted as criticism and condemnation of Christ.--Letter 48, 1894. {3SM 345.2}

Have you go this tucked away for just when you need it?

Not tucked away, but posted in large bold font on the bulletin board in my office right above my primary work area. I have to remind my self frequently...

[Overaged]

Yes Tom, I think we all have to do this. U make a good point.

I wonder though if some have lost touch with the Bible's counsel to "judge righteous judgment?"

I think La Sierra and those in this thread who have no room for this biblical counsel should also hang this on their bulletin boards at work.

You have stated your opinion well; but it lacks evidence.

I have no trouble apologizing to you if you think I have been out of line in my responses here to you. But I think you & Bravus also owe Amish an apology

[Bravus]

If what I wrote was read as saying 'Amish is Satan', then I definitely apologise for that. That was not my intention.

The same form of Jiu Jitsu that you used on me ('accusing the accuser') works in reverse, though ('righteous judgement of the righteous judge').

I stand by the comment that these criticisms are much more destructive than constructive.

[Overaged]

well; it is an interesting analogy you make to martial arts, however that is a personal aspect which a friend reminded me via pm that we should all stay away from here; but my question remains: what is so "destructive" about someone calling sin by it's right name? This seems to be a point that you & Tom have been making. It's obvious that you don't agree that any sin was committed; Tom tried to make a distinction between that and apostasy which would be fair in some cases; but in the subject at hand, what have you provided for evidence in favor of LSU? Let me give you a hint. Reducing this to an argument between two lines of theology will not cut it here.

[Bravus]

I have spent tens of hours discussing the LSU issue at the Educate Truth web site, and as part of that have spent hours reading and assessing all the evidence presented about what was taught and what happened at LSU.

It would be tedious to rehearse all of that again here, but my summary of the whole matter is that evolution was definitely taught there (in some biology classes), and that it was taught as being a more plausible explanation for the evidence around us than recent creation. Creation was also taught in what was a survey course for non-specialists. I think it would be necessary for you to go back to the original evidence to challenge that summary.

Beyond that, the claims of 'persecution' on the part of creationist students at LSU just don't really hold water. Louis Bishop wrote a very bad paper (I've read it) and got a very generous C for it, then claimed he should have got a higher grade but didn't because he was a creationist. He then started distributing leaflets on campus attacking the university and the lecturers, and was disciplined for that.

This thread comes from the leaders at LSU addressing the issues and promising to ensure that creationism is taught well and fully to all LSU students. This is a big change and a positive one.

It's a legitimate result of the concern and effort that has been put into that issue. But some want more. Amish wants people to lose their jobs.

To me, that is destructive, not constructive. It is seeking vengeance rather than reconciliation.

[Bravus]

(the reference to jiu jitsu was not to violence but to using an assailant's own strength against him - judo might have been a better reference, and it was a bit of an inside joke at best. The point was that you had turned my allegation of accusing around by saying that I was the accuser, and I was pointing out that I could also turn your proclamation of righteous judgement to proclaim that I was simply making a righteous judgement. Believe me, any reference from me is much more likely to be playful than hostile, and it pains me when that doesn't come across...)

[Dr. Shane]

This thread comes from the leaders at LSU addressing the issues and promising to ensure that creationism is taught well and fully to all LSU students. This is a big change and a positive one.

Now they can move on to other important issues like making sure fruits and vegetables are not served together in the campus cafeteria.

[Stan]

I have spent tens of hours discussing the LSU issue at the Educate Truth web site, and as part of that have spent hours reading and assessing all the evidence presented about what was taught and what happened at LSU.

It would be tedious to rehearse all of that again here, but my summary of the whole matter is that evolution was definitely taught there (in some biology classes), and that it was taught as being a more plausible explanation for the evidence around us than recent creation. Creation was also taught in what was a survey course for non-specialists. I think it would be necessary for you to go back to the original evidence to challenge that summary.

Beyond that, the claims of 'persecution' on the part of creationist students at LSU just don't really hold water. Louis Bishop wrote a very bad paper (I've read it) and got a very generous C for it, then claimed he should have got a higher grade but didn't because he was a creationist. He then started distributing leaflets on campus attacking the university and the lecturers, and was disciplined for that.

This thread comes from the leaders at LSU addressing the issues and promising to ensure that creationism is taught well and fully to all LSU students. This is a big change and a positive one.

It's a legitimate result of the concern and effort that has been put into that issue. But some want more. Amish wants people to lose their jobs.

To me, that is destructive, not constructive. It is seeking vengeance rather than reconciliation.

I usually do not quote like this.

When I have had Bible Studies with folks, I like to give them material, as I provided for myself when I was becoming an Adventist, of concepts and teaching that are against the Adventist Faith. I had to work things out myself, and really did not care what Church I joined or where I fellowshipped. I became fully convinced of the teachings, and some had some battles I had to fight in my research.

Prove all things, hold fast that which is true...

AND YES there are evolution items that creationist just can not explain.......................... YET.

I still believe that Science, and honest scientists, will one day come to the conclusion of life on earth being shorter than what is believed today.

I had a conversation with a lady recently about a radio she heard that was denouncing the 7th day Sabbath, and told me that if her girls had heard that they would never enter the Adventist Church again. My thoughts were, if they have not researched themselves, and there are some serious question that need to be resolved in everyone mind, then they are going to have trouble with most of the other teachings sooner or later.

[Stan]

Some comments I heard a couple of weeks ago that I found interesting. According to studies... ( don't you just love then, when there is no back up material)

One of the difference between Muslims and Christians.... is that going through Universities, Creationist Christians tend to come out Evolutionary something, HOWEVER Muslims come out stronger Creationist. You cannot be a Muslim and believe in evolution.

They also do not compromise on drinking alcohol, eating pork etc, drugs, smoking and other similar values that we hold. I really found that fascinating.

[ClubV12]

But some want more. Amish wants people to lose their jobs.

Perhaps some, like me as well, are saying it should be considered. This is a serious breach of ethics and the standards of the church. How bad does it have to get before firing someone is considered? Never? Does job security reign supreme no matter what?

Every option should be considered in this case. The accusations are verified, they are not rumor, they are serious and they are public. Serious steps should be taken to restore faith in the school, the church and the community, including termination.

[Overaged]

I think I knew that Bravus I wasnt worried about it

You might want to consider that just because there MAY be the odd thing which creationism has not "proven" YET; it does not follow that what it teaches is not true or that the Bible is not in harmony with science.

LSU in some quarters was inappropriately going against Church teachings, and that is a whole different ballgame than teaching both sides of this equation in the name of 'higher education.'

[Gerr]

But by its very definition, apostasy involves a public rejection of ones total religious faith.

So if I cling to the outward forms of the faith but in heart and mind and in my private life I have disavowed the faith, I am not an apostate.

[Overaged]

Toms definition of "apostasy" is inaccurate.

[Overaged]

I agree. This should be considered It is wrong to join the Boy Scouts and insist that everyone wear Girl-Guide uniforms, yet still call yourself a Boy Scout

[Stephen Conner]

Elizabeth and Zechariah were instructed by God to take John (The Baptist) to the wilderness to raise him and instruct him, away from the Jewish school system. The Jewish educational system was already permeated by Greek teaching. The mixture of truth and error.

The Greek power envisioned by Daniel the Prophet did not rule by false religion as did Babylon, nor did it rule by despotic government as did Medo-Persia. It ruled the minds of men through education. Daniel saw these three characteristics to continue until the end and we can certainly see the correctness of his vision today!

We cannot have a more clear example of just how infectious Greek teaching is today. Not only in secular and apostated school systems, but in the schools origionally established to teach the children of the remnant, just like the schools of ancient Israel that claimed to be God's people and follow Him.

The lesson: Search the Scriptures for yourself and test each teaching and sign to see if they stand against Scripture.

[CoAspen]

a·pos·ta·sy[uh-pos-tuh-see]

–noun, plural -sies.

a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.

plural apos·ta·sies

Definition of APOSTASY

1: renunciation of a religious faith

2: abandonment of a previous loyalty

ApostasyFrom Wikipedia

Apostasy from Greek ; (apostasia), a defection or revolt, from;, apo, "away, apart";, stasis, "stand", "standing") is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person.

Where is he inaccurate, or are we just nitpicking?

[ClubV12]

Definition of APOSTASY

1: .....

2: abandonment of a previous loyalty

Well the definition appears to fit, considering the abandonment of loyalty to the belief in creation and favoring evolution in it's place. Apostate it is.

[CoAspen]

Picking and choosing......

Look at the entire explanations.....a total rejection of ones previous belief.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

But by its very definition, apostasy involves a public rejection of ones total religious faith.

So if I cling to the outward forms of the faith but in heart and mind and in my private life I have disavowed the faith, I am not an apostate.

Hypocrite - yes, Apostate - no... at least not yet.

[Overaged]

Hypocrite - yes, Apostate - no... at least not yet.

But that depends on where you derive your definition from. I noticed that some are starting to whip us a bit with their version; all from dictionaries and encyclopedias. I am reminded of The KING OF THE GLASS CATHEDRAL when he preached about God's love from a dictionary.

[Bravus]

Well, yeah, dictionaries are pretty annoying if you'd prefer to have your own private definitions of words. Perhaps Humpty Dumpty would offer a better reference:

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”

“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master that’s all.”

[Overaged]

HuH?

[Bravus]

Again, trying for playful and maybe missing.

The serious point hidden in the playfulness is that 'apostate' simply does not mean, anywhere, dictionaries or not, 'disagreement with one point of doctrine'. It is not sensible to use a word to mean something that it does not mean, when there are perfectly good words available that do mean what you want to say.