Love Wins

[phkrause]

Love wins and wins all the time and will ultimately win at the 2nd Coming.

Why am I saying this - because Universalism isn't quite the heresy it's made out to be. For example, if we are to be changed "in a twinkling of an eye" and our woefully sinful characters replaced by Jesus' character, who says that it's not possible for all to be saved, then changed, then re-educated - all in the spirit of love - the essence of who God is.

There's a lot to be said for justice - that evildoers will get their just punishment, yet in the same context we speak of justice meted with mercy but it sounds from the rhetoric that some would rather not be in Heaven with certain other sinful people?

And finally, we constantly speak of redemption, conversion, being reborn - the metanoic experience of Romans 12:2 "be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind"

With Universalism, all these things can take place and I think the all-loving God I worship is bigger than simply being interested in exacting punishment on those who deserve it.

Now I'll sit back and wait to read the stinging overtures of how heretical I am by saying this. Thank God that God is my judge.

Alex

Excellent thoughts ab. Not sure that I would still buy into Universalism to that extent, but I do agree with most of your post.

[ClubV12]

d'Aubigne's History of the Reformation....

Eight volumes as I recall, best to pick up one a time.

A magnificent work. Ellen White used to read it to her father. She often cites it in the Great Controversy.

[Gail]

This is not the whole series (I wish I had the whole thing!!). This volume is the Reformation of the 16th century. Pretty hefty book- it looks like a facsimile of the original.

But back to the topic at hand... :)

[Guest]

Universalism? It's a nice thought, but it's not Biblical.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Rev 14:9,10 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

[skyblue888]

As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man.

That says it all.

When the Son of Man comes in His glory, shall He find faith on the earth?

Oh there will be lots of people professing the faith but I am afraid for the most part it will be a spurious faith as Jesus implied in His word.

sky

[ClubV12]

Though some may be sincerely mistaken, sincerity, like being a "good" person, a lovely person, a kind person, is not enough.

Having a form of religion, but denying the power of it.

[Tom Wetmore]

Gail, to understand Rob's defense you would need to read the link in the OP, and perhaps some of the comments and related links and stories about the hornets nest he seems to have kicked in the Evangelical world. And the bulk of the commentary here tracks that criticism of his new book.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, it's your turn to shut up! Try 2nd Cor. 12:9 where Paul said that his god told him that his grace was sufficient for him. And try Titus 2:11 where Paul said that God's grace brought salvation to all men (everyone).

This is universalism at it's finest. Everyone will be saved by the grace of God. Isn't that what Paul said and taught? If Paul said and taught this same thing for ALL of Israel (Romans 11:26), and because he also taught there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles, then it was Paul's gospel that everyone would be saved by the grace of God.

[Dr. Rich]

WHAT? NOAH kept preahing? Why? What you and EGW said and wrote in P&P is just not true and there is absolute NO proof that this ever happened. This is what drives people nuts when people believe something without any proof! But then, isn't that what 'faith' is called? And you can't argue facts with people who believe because of faith.

[Dr. Rich]

Tom W wrote: "I believe in a God that can redeem anything... and everything. It does not trouble me to think that he might do just that. Time after time throughout history as recorded in Scripture, he took the least likely, the least worthy, the least promising, the worst excuses for humanity and redeemed them, turned them around, set them on his path to accomplish his purpose and called them his own. The last shall be first..."

Huh? Please show me your evidence for this? Make sure it isn't hearsay evidence or circular reasoning.

[phkrause]

Richard, it's your turn to shut up! Try 2nd Cor. 12:9 where Paul said that his god told him that his grace was sufficient for him. And try Titus 2:11 where Paul said that God's grace brought salvation to all men (everyone).

This is universalism at it's finest. Everyone will be saved by the grace of God. Isn't that what Paul said and taught? If Paul said and taught this same thing for ALL of Israel (Romans 11:26), and because he also taught there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles, then it was Paul's gospel that everyone would be saved by the grace of God.

How can you even say that, has Richard said that you should shut up? And I did not see were Richard said that univeralism was correct!! But I do agree that Christ died for all and his grace covers us all! But not all will be saved, because not all will accept God's grace, will they???? I most definitely agree with Paul that all are saved by grace, if they accept Jesus and his grace.

[phkrause]

WHAT? NOAH kept preahing? Why? What you and EGW said and wrote in P&P is just not true and there is absolute NO proof that this ever happened. This is what drives people nuts when people believe something without any proof! But then, isn't that what 'faith' is called? And you can't argue facts with people who believe because of faith.

You know Dr. Rich, I do agree that we can't find this in the Bible. But wouldn't common sense suggest that he must have?? I mean 120 years and he just ignores all those people? You have to believe that they must have asked him "what are you doing Noah?" And than you'd have to believe that he just ignored them, after God no less asks him to build this boat to save all that want to get on! Not sure that I can accept your thoughts on this at all.

[fccool]

I don't now if people are saying it's heretical, but according to the book review, Bell sounds like someone who believes everyone is eventually going to be saved so that God gets what He wants. At least he think it's a possibility. I have too many other good things to read than spend time on a book which teaches that.

You would rather spend time thinking how God should act

Reminds me of Jonah a bit.

[John317]

I don't now if people are saying it's heretical, but according to the book review, Bell sounds like someone who believes everyone is eventually going to be saved so that God gets what He wants. At least he think it's a possibility. I have too many other good things to read than spend time on a book which teaches that.

Originally Posted By: fccool

You would rather spend time thinking how God should act

Reminds me of Jonah a bit.

I would rather spend time thinking about what God has revealed in the Bible. We can trust the Bible.

Do you believe everyone is going to be saved?

Does the Bible teach this?

[Sonny]

Do you believe everyone is going to be saved?

I know this question wasn't asked of me, but....

I believe that the Bible teaches that God has saved the whole human race through the birth, life, death & resurrection of Christ, but...

Well, that's the good news. No one can fault God in the end if he/she is lost. God has done it all, but not all will accept God's complete salvation in His Son, Jesus Christ. Those who reject Christ are cutting themselves off from life.

My 2 cents

[fccool]

1) Saved from what?... death... hell?

2) It makes very little difference as to what I believe in regards to ontological reality. Just because I don't believe that there's a city called Atlantis in Pegasus Galaxy... does not mean that I should not consider watching the Show dubbed Stargate Atlantis.

At the same time, if I had not other ways of verifying or outside contact with other people, such show would be as real to me as my own surrounding.

The point is... it makes no difference to me as to what you believe. All I care is about possibility of reality. You can believe in pink unicorns for all I care. I respect that.

I do have trouble when people who claim to be Christians object to the idea of universal salvation on bases of "well God said that that he will destroy the wicked".

God said the same thing to Jonah, but it didn't happen did it?

On top of it, why wouldn't you want for everyone to be saved? Wouldn't such desire reflect God's mind?

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you believe everyone is going to be saved?

I know this question wasn't asked of me, but....

I believe that the Bible teaches that God has saved the whole human race through the birth, life, death & resurrection of Christ, but...

Well, that's the good news. No one can fault God in the end if he/she is lost. God has done it all, but not all will accept God's complete salvation in His Son, Jesus Christ. Those who reject Christ are cutting themselves off from life.

My 2 cents

amen

[John317]

WHAT? NOAH kept preahing? Why? What you and EGW said and wrote in P&P is just not true and there is absolute NO proof that this ever happened. This is what drives people nuts when people believe something without any proof! But then, isn't that what 'faith' is called? And you can't argue facts with people who believe because of faith.

Originally Posted By: pkrause

You know Dr. Rich, I do agree that we can't find this in the Bible. But wouldn't common sense suggest that he must have?? I mean 120 years and he just ignores all those people? You have to believe that they must have asked him "what are you doing Noah?" And than you'd have to believe that he just ignored them, after God no less asks him to build this boat to save all that want to get on! Not sure that I can accept your thoughts on this at all.

It really has nothing to do with Ellen White. Most students of the Bible believe that Noah preached while building the ark because the Bible teaches it-- only not those parts of the Bible that Dr. Rich chooses to reject.

Most of the Christians who believe Noah preached while building the ark have never even heard of Ellen White, much less read her books. So they must be getting their ideas about it from the Bible. In fact, they quote the Bible as their authority for this belief. See the commentaries of Adam Clarke and Matthew Henry, for instance.

1 Peter 3:18-20

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: [19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; [20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

2 Peter 2:5

if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Hebrews 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

NOTE: When we put these verses together, we can see that the Bible teaches that Christ's Spirit preached through Noah to the people of that day while the ark was being prepared. During that time God was waiting patiently to see if the people would listen to Noah's preachign and repent of their great wickedness.

God always send a warning message to people before He sends judgment, and God is the same today as He was in Noah's day. Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. See Mal. 3: 6; Heb. 13: 8.

He sent warning messages to Sodom, Egypt, Ninevah, Edom, Jerusalem, Babylon, and He sends the Three Angels Messages today to the whole world before the second coming. Of course God also warned the world before it was destroyed by the great Flood.

2 Peter 2: 5 calls Noah a herald or preacher of righteousness. Are we to think that Noah preached before God commanded him to construct the ark, but then after He was told the world would be destroyed, Noah kept his mouth shut like a dumb dog that won't bark? What kind of sense does that make?

Is that the sort of God we worship?

Some people think that Matt. 24: 38, 39 says that the people of Noah's day had no warning about the coming Flood. However, all it shows is that they didn't believe what Noah told them, and therefore they didn't KNOW about it until it was too late. It doesn't say the people didn't hear about it beforehand. Similarly, millions are being warned today about the judgement, the Mark of the Beast, and the seven last plagues, yet because most of them don't beleive the message, the Bible says that they will be caught totally unprepared, just as if they had never been warned.

[fccool]

I think it would make more sense if God revealed the people directly, don't you think? How would you react if some idiot start building a nuclear shelter and told you that the world is going to end a week from now... and God revealed him that. Would you perhaps even question it?

I sure think it would tip people off that something going on when the animals from all over the earth just came in pairs, but that's what makes this story so unbelievable... that there were not a single person besides Noah and the family who got in the ark. Even lunatics of today have some following.

[John317]

God gives people the conviction through the Holy Spirit if they will listen to Him. People who are lost must first reject the Holy Spirit who speaks to us.

But yes, God could come to each person individually and overwhelm them with dreams or visions, voices, absolute proof of His existence and of the truth of His messages, etc. But that isn't how God works. There's a good reason. God respects our freedom to choose, and this requires that people be allowed the freedom to reject the truth. However, if the truth was given in such a way that people couldn't deny it, they wouldn't have a choice.

[phkrause]

I do agree John, I was just giving him the benefit of the doubt about the Bible not saying anything. I just figured lets say that he was correct in that, it still seemed to me that common sense would take over.

[fccool]

Reply to John....

That's a bowl of crock, I'm sorry.

The problem is that Holy Spirit speak through some "feelings" in your opinion. So how is it do you supposed to separate feelings of your own conviction and those of Holy Spirit?

God does not have to overwhelm people with voices. If he just materialized and spoke to me, perhaps took me on a trip around the universe... I'd have a lot less reasons to doubt, and it would certainly not impair my freedom of choice a bit. It would enhance it, in fact... because I would have proper information as to base my choice one. I would not have to second guess that Bible is enhanced religious tradition twisted around for political reasons then.

Yet, the best you can come up is some strange feeling of conviction? Give me a break!

[fccool]

Quote:

However, if the truth was given in such a way that people couldn't deny it, they wouldn't have a choice.

That means that you really don't have a choice drinking antibiotics if there's an undeniable proof that they kill bacteria?

Or... perhaps better analogy, if it was proven that smoking is harmful as a fact, would it cause absolutely everyone to quit smoking?

Just because people would know that God is the truth, it does not mean they have no choice but to follow him. That does not even makes sense in terms of Biblical narratives (ahem... Jonah again?... Satan? ... Israel? ... Solomon?)

Once again... :)

[ClubV12]

It's not about a "feeling", it's much more basic than that, in my opinion. It's more like, a certain undeniable knowledge that some things are right, and some things are wrong. A conscience, an intuition, a sense of right and wrong. And every human that's ever lived on earth has that innate ability.

For instance, you just KNOW it's wrong to kill in cold blood. You don't need a law, you don't need someone to tell you, you just know it. Even the bushman who's never heard of God and has zero knowledge of biblical things, understands this.

This is what separates humans from animals. If you abuse this fundamental awareness of things around you, the conscience becomes hardened, callous, you don't care what you or other people think. At that point you may not kill because you are afraid of man's (or the tribes) "laws", but that is the only thing stopping you.

To kill is an extreme example, but the concept applies to ever simpler areas of life, and you KNOW what is right and what is wrong. Stealing, lieing, etc. All laws of God or laws of Nature if you prefer, it's what makes us "human".

This conscience can be hardened in multiple ways. Early training for instance. For those growing up in a clan of cannibals where killing and eating other humans is the accepted practice it may become almost "natural". Or growing up in a clan that steals as the primary source of income, same impact. Beholding, we become changed, for good or bad. When such a clan, group, country or people reach a certain level of "evil lifestyle" God WILL step in and put a stop to it. Perhaps a warning at first, but the clock is ticking, their time is running out if they continue on that evil path.

This is why many kingdoms come to an end, corruption, a lifestyle that not only rejects any concept of God, but whose thoughts are "evil continually". You can call that an act of God, or just stupidity, blame it on a volcano, an invading army or whatever you want. But a quick glance at history shows it to be true over and over. Connect the dots...

They have rejected the Holy Spirit, which is the God given concept that man uses to determine right from wrong. The more hardened you become, the more quiet that voice becomes.

[fccool]

Quote:

It's not about a "feeling", it's much more basic than that, in my opinion. It's more like, a certain undeniable knowledge that some things are right, and some things are wrong. A conscience, an intuition, a sense of right and wrong. And every human that's ever lived on earth has that innate ability

Trust me, I've heard that before many times, and... it's a bowl of crock. There's no reason for God to be so unclear as to come up with a way to present truth that can be in fact confused with personal feeling and opinions. Likewise ... there are a couple thousand denominations that will tell you that what they have comes from Holy Spirit... including the new branch that says that the world will end in October, and Christ coming back in May.

Quote:

For instance, you just KNOW it's wrong to kill in cold blood. You don't need a law, you don't need someone to tell you, you just know it. Even the bushman who's never heard of God and has zero knowledge of biblical things, understands this.

This knowledge has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, and everything to do with childhood knowledge development. If you teach a child that killing in cold blood is a must... they will do it without second-guessing. There are plenty of cases, beginning with army... where they break you down and teach you that there's nothing inherently wrong about shooting at the enemy.

Quote:

This is what separates humans from animals. If you abuse this fundamental awareness of things around you, the conscience becomes hardened, callous, you don't care what you or other people think. At that point you may not kill because you are afraid of man's (or the tribes) "laws", but that is the only thing stopping you.

Once again, it has nothing to do with consciousness. There are cannibalistic tribes out there that take it as a norm to kill and eat other people. Childhood "programming" has more to do with it than Holy Spirit.

Quote:

To kill is an extreme example, but the concept applies to ever simpler areas of life, and you KNOW what is right and what is wrong. Stealing, lieing, etc. All laws of God or laws of Nature if you prefer, it's what makes us "human".

Once again, this knowledge is not some sort of preset, otherwise there's no need to teach it at all!

Quote:

This conscience can be hardened in multiple ways. Early training for instance. For those growing up in a clan of cannibals where killing and eating other humans is the accepted practice it may become almost "natural". Or growing up in a clan that steals as the primary source of income, same impact. Beholding, we become changed, for good or bad. When such a clan, group, country or people reach a certain level of "evil lifestyle" God WILL step in and put a stop to it. Perhaps a warning at first, but the clock is ticking, their time is running out if they continue on that evil path.

It has nothing to do with "conscience hardening". I think it's quite obvious that whatever set of laws you teach a child... they most likely to follow these granted that they'll have no other significant outside influence. My 35 year old co-worker finally had an epiphany the other day that he can drink soda any time he wants to, and not just on Friday. It was so ingrained in him as a child, that he went through with the "law" way into his adult life.

Saying that there's a little influence inside of your head that urges you to do something wrong outside of your awareness... does not play well with God's sense of justice and reason at all. It sounds more like a scam written up for naive.

Likewise, saying that God sees a rapist and does nothing about it but a warning... does not play very well in God's favor. I will accept "I don't know" as a more humble answer, but most of what I hear here does not make much sens.

Quote:

This is why many kingdoms come to an end, corruption, a lifestyle that not only rejects any concept of God, but whose thoughts are "evil continually". You can call that an act of God, or just stupidity, blame it on a volcano, an invading army or whatever you want. But a quick glance at history shows it to be true over and over. Connect the dots...

They have rejected the Holy Spirit, which is the God given concept that man uses to determine right from wrong. The more hardened you become, the more quiet that voice becomes.

Once again, if there's a God... and he set up the world in a way that people are judge based on responding to some injected convictions inside their consciousness... forgive me for thinking that it's rather vague.

After all, these things are inside your head... so it would be quite hard to separate which one is which. I have convictions of certainty quite often, and many of them turned up plain wrong on many occasions.

But that's besides the point. If God is interested in saving anyone who wants to go to heaven, why wouldn't he? There are millions of people who don't ascribe to Christianity due to the spiritualism that it peddles (that spirits whisper into your mind) and spiritualism that they don't experience.

So, if given more solid proof upon which they will believe and see everything in different light, why wouldn't God save them? Quite frankly, I don't see many atheists that would look in the face of God and say ... to hell with you, if they are given all the reasons that make perfect sense.

The fundamentalists love to be "the chosen ones", because they "work hard" at believing something that they see very little hard evidence of. Yet, why would other people who are unwilling to believe without any evidence be held to the same "fate"?

Imagine a guy on a death row about to be hanged. And judge says :" We are willing to forgive you, if you believe in the magic bunny who forgives your crimes". What would you do? Would you go against all evidence and your conscience and simply believe to save yourself?

What Christian dogma teaches is quite similar. It teaches that simple act of believing accounts for forgiveness (with some stipulations), but it provides no solid evidence for its claims.

Instead we are told about a magical voice of conviction that's in your head, and that we talk to God through prayer and he answers in a way that could have happened to begin with without asking a thing.

I guess, you should first understand why people don't believe before subjecting them to death for that. Maybe then you'll understand what Rob Bell is talking about.