Love Wins

[ClubV12]

Terms like "all", "everyone" or "forever", especially as used in the bible, do not always apply 100% to our understanding of the word in question. It seems there is usually an exception to a "rule", rare though it may be. Or, our dull minds cannot comprehend the meaning.

Like an everlasting burning hell, the correct interpretation would be an everlasting termination of sin (forever), not an everlasting torture of souls.

"God has dealt to every man the measure of faith." Rom.12:3.

For some, like children raised by animals perhaps, the measure may be so small, it is virtually non-existant. What to do with these souls who were so abused from childhood, or for other causes, never had a chance to understand even a basic concept of God? Their morality based strictly on consequences?

We get a glimpse of such a person from EGW in Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 1, chapter 34, "Sins of Babylon". Note: This is not EGW's opinion, she saw this in a vision.

"I saw that the slave-master would have to answer for the soul of his slave

whom he has kept in ignorance; and all the sins of the slave will be visited

upon the master. God cannot take the slave to heaven, who has been kept in

ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God, or the Bible, fearing

nothing but his master's lash, and not holding so elevated a position as his

master's brute beasts. But he does the best thing for him that a compassionate

God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been;..."

Which might also bring a new understanding to a phrase like, "all the dead will be raised".

[Tom Wetmore]

I have to agree with Dr. Rich's reading of this text. The context suggests a lack of awareness of the fate that awaits the people at the time of the end as it was in the time of Noah. They do not know what is coming until it happens. That speaks of something unexpected. Even if you forget something that you are told will happen, you cannot be described as not knowing anything about it when it does happen. If you have been warned, your memory will be refreshed when the event occurs. You know about it.

Also a careful reading of the Genesis account of Noah shows that it says nothing about him doing anything to warn anyone else. Nor does it say that God told him to warn anyone. It does say that Noah did everything God told him to do and describes specifically what that was - build a boat, stock it with food for him and his family and the animals, put animals in the boat, get in the boat. One can only assume that this was done openly and could not have been done in secret. It took a long time to build the boat, so it wouldn't have ben completely unknown. But Noah was not commissioned by God to warn anyone. Any other details are reading tradition into the text or relying on extra-Biblical sources that are largely built on tradition.

Th only hint of Noah spending any time doing any warning is in the NT where Peter calls Noah a preacher.

As for what tradition suggests as Noah building a boat ( and preaching) for 120 years, the Genesis account suggests a somewhat shorter timeline in which Noah carries out God instructions to him. The genealogy that precedes the flood story, says that Noah had his 3 sons after he was 500 years old. The account of Noah starts with noting that he had 3 sons when God came to him and instructed him about the boat. The account says that he entered the boat in his 600th year and got out of the boat after the flood in his 601st year. That suggests a period of no more than 101 years from beginning to end. Logic would suggest less than 100 years since the 3 sons were born after Noah was 500. Normal gestation would say that the youngest of those 3 sons would have been born no earlier than when Noah was 502. All three had been born when God instructed Noah about the boat, making Noah at least 502 when he got started. The longest possible time span until the flood was over was 99 years.

The 120 years seems to come from the suggestion before the flood that God would give 120 years to man since he saw how wicked they had become when he decided to destroy them. Does that mean 120 years of probation until he would destroy them or a limit on man's lifespan from that point on. The Hebrew is apparently somewhat ambiguous. The idea that this was his announced timeframe until He would destroy them is then extrapolated into the story of the flood that follows, notwithstanding the clear timeline I described above. The context and the history that follows the flood seems to suggest a more probable meaning that it is talking about the future lifespan of man.

[Tom Wetmore]

I am currently reading "Love Wins". I will post my reaction to it when I am finished.

[skyblue888]

Love wins.

"Above, beneath, beyond, abides infinite Love working out all things to accomplish the good pleasure of His goodness." Education, p,134.

Love wins: "The love that Christ diffuses through the whole being is a vitalizing power. Every vital part, the brain, the heart, the nerves it touches with healing. It frees the soul from the guilt and sorrow, the anxiety and care that crush the life forces. By it the highest energies of the soul are roused to activity. With it come serenity and composure. It implants in the soul a joy that nothing earthly can destroy, joy in the Holy Spirit, health-giving, life-giving joy." Ministry of Healing, p.115.

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits, we appropriate the blessings of light and joy and peace in the Holy Spirit." 5 T 744.

And this is the kingdom of God within you. Rom.14:17.

Love wins. Love heals.

sky

[John317]

I have to agree with Dr. Rich's reading of this text. The context suggests a lack of awareness of the fate that awaits the people at the time of the end as it was in the time of Noah. They do not know what is coming until it happens. That speaks of something unexpected. Even if you forget something that you are told will happen, you cannot be described as not knowing anything about it when it does happen. If you have been warned, your memory will be refreshed when the event occurs. You know about it.

Also a careful reading of the Genesis account of Noah shows that it says nothing about him doing anything to warn anyone else. Nor does it say that God told him to warn anyone.

You and Dr. Rich and can believe what you will, but the evidence that Noah preached to the people before the Flood is as clear as that God is warning the world of the approaching judgment in our own day. Some will believe-- most will not. Those who do not believe will be taken by complete surprise, just as the people of Noah's day had no idea that the Flood would sweep them all away. Not because they had no oppornity to know, but because they refused to listen and believe.

Many non-SDA Bible also believe that Noah preached to the people before the Flood, and they quote the Bible as their only evidence for this belief.

Here is Edersheim, a well-known writer and Bible student of the 19th century:

Quote:

All other questions connected with the building of the ark may safely be dismissed as not deserving serious discussion. But the one great fact would stand out during that period: Noah preaching righteousness, warning of the judgment to come, and still exhibiting his faith in his practice by continuing to provide an ark of refuge. To sum up Noah’s life of faith, Noah’s preaching of faith, and Noah’s work of faith in the words of Scripture: "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." (Hebrews 11:7).

General Conference Presdient, George Butler, wrote:

Quote:

The Bible brings to view clearly this fact, that before the great day of wrath shall come, a warning shall be given. Christ declares: "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Matt.24:37. Did not Noah have a message of warning to deliver? Then we must expect one before Christ comes. "So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand." Luke 21:31. Signs are here given which are immediately to precede his appearing, and be sure evidence of it. It were absurd to suppose that those warned of it would not warn others. Paul says: "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." 1Thess.5:4. "That day" is when Christ comes, as the immediate connection shows. These brethren who have light will give that light to others. Says the prophet Joel: "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand." Joel 2:1. We believe that when the time comes, the alarm will be sounded as the word declares. The prophet Zephaniah, in chap. 2:1-3, brings to view the same thing. But the solemn message to be proclaimed is most fully brought to view in Rev.14:6-12. The most thrilling announcement in all the Bible is here made. The terrible destruction to be visited is here distinctly portrayed. The character of the work to be done is plainly indicated. Christ's coming in glory is here brought to view. {1895 URS, RCASDA 166.3}

S.D. Adventists fully believe that God has called them to proclaim this warning message to the world. They feel a woe is laid upon them if they prove unfaithful. They dare not do it. They feel there is one special work committed to their hands by the God of heaven, and they must be true to their allegiance and discharge their solemn duty.

Not to believe that God warned people before the Flood would mean you not only reject Ellen White's writings on the subject, but you have to conclude that Noah preached before God commanded him to build the ark but not afterwards. That wouldn't make any sense.

No one has said that the Genesis account mentions that Noah preached to the people. The Genesis account also does not tell us that God told Adam about the Sabbath, but anyone who is reasoning well in the Scriptrues knows that He did. The only way around it would be to assume that God made the Sabbath for the benefit of mankind and then hid it for thoussands of years from the very humans he made it for.

Like the Genesis account of the Sabbath, there is found in the Bible sufficient evidence to show that God warned the people before the Flood of the coming judgment. If people don't want to accept that evidence, they also have the testimony of God's last day prophet. If people still do not want to believe it, then let them believe what they will.

Ellen White wrote the following clear statements about Noah's warning of the people prior to the Flood, and the Bible evidence supports what she writes:

Quote:

There will be agents of Satan who will induce to sin; but the steady soul who loves and fears God, will be as firm in his Heaven-inspired purpose as was Daniel, and will not be swerved from his convictions of duty. There will always be those in high places who have never subdued and overcome self. These Satan uses as decoys. They flatter the pleasure-lovers by uniting with them. They court their approval. God has a work for his faithful ones to do, to stand in defense of the truth like faithful Noah. They will warn and entreat, and show by their works their faith. They stand as God's agents, as Noah stood, in noble, whole-souled fidelity, the moral character untarnished. They are saviours of men like their Master. They will be exposed to hatred and reproach as was their Master. Enmity will be aroused, hatred and false accusations will pour like a torrent around them to wrench them from their high moral position, but they have their foundation on the Rock, and remain unmoved at their chosen post of duty, warning, entreating, rebuking sin and pleasure-lovers by their moral rectitude and circumspect conversation. God's servants who will hear the "Well done" from his divine lips, will be heroic ministers of righteousness, although they may not preach in the desk. They are constantly ministering, loyal to their sense of God's claims upon them, jealous of their own selves, lest they shall dishonor the Lord that taught them to stand in defense of right and duty at any loss to themselves. This is the work of the Christian soldier. That which will stand under the pressure of temptation is heart religion. The whole heart must be given to God; if any portion of it be withheld, we have no right to claim the promise of being the favored sons and daughters of God. {PH167 5.2}

The Christian soldier will be trained through daily tests to prove his fidelity. If in compliance with the conditions, efforts are constantly made to "cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." then God will do all he has promised; we shall have our names registered in the Lamb's book of life, and in the investigative judgment, the True Witness says, I will not blot out his name out of the book of life." The names of the faithful will stand as sons and daughters of God, members of the royal family, children of the Heavenly King. I have been shown that there exists a lamentable ignorance in regard to the guile that lurks in the human heart, which constantly inclines to self-indulgence, to pride, to self-importance, to love of self-exaltation, to seek the praise of men. {PH167 6.1}

Quote:

God, whom men had slighted and dishonored and whose gracious love and benevolence they had abused, still pitied the race and in his love provided a refuge for all who would accept it. He directed Noah to build an ark and at the same time preach to the inhabitants of the world that God would bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy the wicked. If they would believe the message and prepare for that event by repentance and reformation they should find pardon and be saved. God did not remove his spirit from man without warning him of the sure result of his course in transgressing his law. He gave the message to Noah to be given to the people. "My spirit shall not always strive with man." A continual resistance and contempt of the entreaties and warnings from God through his servant Noah, would separate them from God, and the result would be infinite mercy and love would cease its pleadings. The Spirit of God continued to strive with rebellious man until the time of God had specified had nearly expired, when Noah and his family entered the ark and the hand of God closed the door of the ark. Mercy had stepped from the golden throne no longer to intercede for man. {ST, December 20, 1877 par. 3}

Quote:

Noah was to preach to the people, and also to prepare an ark as God should direct him for the saving of himself and family. He was not only to preach, but his example in building the ark was to convince all that he believed what he preached. {Amazing Grace 132.3}

Quote:

Amid the prevailing corruption, Methuselah, Noah, and many others labored to keep alive the knowledge of the true God and to stay the tide of moral evil. A hundred and twenty years before the Flood, the Lord by a holy angel declared to Noah His purpose, and directed him to build an ark. While building the ark he was to preach that God would bring a flood of water upon the earth to destroy the wicked. Those who would believe the message, and would prepare for that event by repentance and reformation, should find pardon and be saved. PP chapter 7

Quote:

This period was the testing time for Noah. He knew that he was the object of popular contempt and scorn with that corrupt generation. He met with unbelief and mockery everywhere. But the greater the iniquity surrounding him, the more earnest and firm and persevering was he in his obedience, showing that there was one man in the world who would be true to God. He was a faithful and unbending witness for God, kind and courteous to all, resenting no insult. He was as one who heard not the reviling and blasphemy that greeted him on every side. {ST, February 27, 1879 par. 12}

Noah was bearing to the inhabitants of the earth an important message of warning, the reception or rejection of which would decide the destiny of their souls. He believed God, he believed that he had the truth, and he moved straight forward in the path of faith and obedience, gaining strength from God daily, by communion with him. Noah was a man of prayer; and in this close connection with God he found all his courage and firmness. He preached, and warned, and entreated the people; but they would not change their course. They bought, they sold, they planted, they builded, they married and were given in marriage, they indulged in feasting and gluttony, and debased their souls, showing contempt for the message of Noah. Their speeches and actions became more vile and corrupt as the period of their probation was closing. The whole world seemed to be against Noah; but he had the testimony from God, "Thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation." {ST, February 27, 1879 par. 13}

As far as human wisdom could see, the event predicted by Noah was not likely to occur. Rain had never fallen; a mist or dew had watered the earth. The brooks and rivers had safely flowed along their channels, emptying into the sea. The bodies of water had been kept in their place by God's decree, "Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further." Men then talked about the fixed laws of nature, that could not be set aside to bring about any such event as Noah had foretold. They wished to believe, and to have all others believe, that God could not change the order of the natural world; thus they sought to prescribe the limits of his power, making him a slave to his own laws. The people in Noah's day possessed sharp intellects, and they sought to show, on scientific grounds, that it was impossible for his prophecy to be fulfilled. Noah was laughed to scorn because of his warnings; he was regarded as a fanatic. Noah's implicit trust in God annoyed while it condemned them; but they could not move this faithful reprover from his position. The Lord had given the warning, and that was enough for Noah. The arguments of the philosophers were nothing to him, when the message of God was sounding in his ears, "The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth." {ST, February 27, 1879 par. 14}

Noah, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house. He had that fear which should characterize the life of every Christian. The perfect faith of Noah intensified his fear. The threatened wrath of God, which was to fall upon man and beast, and upon the earth, led him to prepare the ark. His faith, and his fear of God's anger, produced obedience. Noah did not hesitate to obey God. He urged no excuse, that the labor of building that ark was great and expensive. He believed God, and invested in the ark all that he possessed, while the wicked world scoffed and made themselves merry at the deluded old man. {ST, February 27, 1879 par. 15}

They had more opportunity for their unbelief and mockery, because God did not at once carry out his purpose. But the lapse of time did not cause the faith of Noah to waver; his trust in God was unfailing, and he accepted without a murmur the hardships and sacrifice involved. Noah's faith, combined with action, condemned the world; for he was a faithful preacher of righteousness, rebuking, warning, and exhorting the wicked. Their reproach and abuse was sometimes almost unendurable; yet the patriarch stayed his soul on God, and called upon him for help in his great need. Through derision, insult, and mockery, he went to and fro as a man with a great mission to fulfill. Privileges had been neglected, precious souls degraded, and God insulted; and the day of retributive justice came slowly on; man's unbelief did not hinder the event. {ST, February 27, 1879 par. 16}

God gave Noah the exact dimensions of the ark, and explicit directions in regard to its construction in every particular. It was three stories high, but there were no windows in the sides, all the light being received from one in the top. The different apartments were so arranged that the window in the top gave light to all. The door was in the side. The ark was made of the cypress, or gopher wood, which would know nothing of decay for hundreds of years. It was a building of great durability, which no wisdom of man could invent. God was the designer and Noah his master-builder. {ST, February 27, 1879 par. 17}

The work of completing the building was a slow process. Every piece of timber was closely fitted, and every seam covered with pitch. All that men could do was done to make the work perfect; yet, after all, it was impossible that it could of itself withstand the violence of the storm which the Lord in his fierce anger was to bring upon the earth. God alone by his miraculous power, could preserve the building upon the angry, heaving billows. {ST, February 27, 1879 par. 18}

A multitude at first apparently received the warning of Noah, yet they did not fully turn to God with true repentance. There was some time given them before the flood was to come, in which they were placed upon probation-- to be proved and tried. They failed to endure the trial. The prevailing degeneracy overcame them, and they finally joined others who were corrupt, in deriding and scoffing at faithful Noah. They would not leave off their sins, but continued in polygamy, and in the indulgence of their base passions. {ST, February 27, 1879 par. 19}

With heart filled with sorrow that his warnings had been slighted and neglected, Noah makes, with quivering lips and trembling voice, his last appeal to the people. And while their voices are raised, in jest and scoffing, suddenly they see the beasts, the most ferocious as well as the most gentle, of their own accord coming, from mountain and forest, and marching quietly into the ark. A noise like a rushing wind is heard; and lo, birds of every description come from all directions, clouding the heavens with their numbers, and file, in perfect order, into that ark. Philosophers were appealed to in vain to explain from natural laws the singular phenomenon. Here was a mystery beyond their depth. The world looked on with wonder--some with fear, but they had become so hardened by rebellion that this most signal manifestation of God's power had but a momentary effect upon them. For seven days these animals were coming into the ark, and Noah was arranging them in the places prepared for them. {ST, February 27, 1879 par. 20}

And as the doomed race beheld the sun shining in its glory, and the earth clad in almost Eden beauty, they drove away their rising fears by boisterous merriment; and by their deeds of violence seemed to be encouraging upon themselves the visitation of the already awakened wrath of God.

-

{ST, February 27, 1879 par. 21}

[SivartM]

the evidence that Noah preached to the people before the Flood is as clear as that God is warning the world of the approaching judgment in our own day.

Not clear at all then, I gather.

[John317]

the evidence that Noah preached to the people before the Flood is as clear as that God is warning the world of the approaching judgment in our own day.

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Not clear at all then, I gather.

Do you believe:

1) That Noah preached a warning message of coming judgment?

2) That God has raised up the SDA church to tell people about Christ's return?

[Tom Wetmore]

Everything but the kitchen sink... and Sola Scriptura.

And according to Shin-eqi-unninni, Ea the creator god secretly told Utnapishtim to build a great boat to save himself and every living thing from the flood that would destroy the earth. He built the boat and was saved.

For another contemporary version known in the time of Jesus maybe we should also bring in the flood story from the Samaritan Pentateuch to offer further extra-Biblical commentary on the story.

[phkrause]

I'd say Sivart is just playing with you John.

[SivartM]

I'd say Sivart is just playing with you John.

I'd say that I'm pretty sure someone edited my post... :\

[John317]

Everything but the kitchen sink... and Sola Scriptura.

Do you believe that Noah preached before the flood of the coming judgment?

In your thinking, do Ellen White's statements regarding the preaching of Noah contradict the Bible?

[Tom Wetmore]

All extra-Biblical commentary...

In the end, will any of this matter?

[John317]

All extra-Biblical commentary...

In the end, will any of this matter?

Do you believe that Noah preached before the flood of the coming judgment?

In your thinking, do Ellen White's statements regarding the preaching of Noah contradict the Bible?

[SivartM]

Does it matter?

Since you will probably just post the same two questions over and over, I will answer for you. No. Okay then.

[John317]

Everything but the kitchen sink... and Sola Scriptura.

And according to Shin-eqi-unninni, Ea the creator god secretly told Utnapishtim to build a great boat to save himself and every living thing from the flood that would destroy the earth. He built the boat and was saved.

For another contemporary version known in the time of Jesus maybe we should also bring in the flood story from the Samaritan Pentateuch to offer further extra-Biblical commentary on the story.

In your thinking, is the Bible evidence and the writings of Ellen White on the same level of authority with the Gilgamesh epic or other ancient myths?

Ellen White says plainly that Noah preached to the people before the Flood. This is supported by the Bible. I've shown evidence that non-SDA Bible scholars also believe-- on the basis of Scripture-- that Noah preached about a coming Flood during the building of the ark.

Do you believe Noah preached prior to the Flood?

[John317]

Does it matter?

Since you will probably just post the same two questions over and over, I will answer for you. No. Okay then.

Yes, it certainly does matter. It matters whether we believe and accept the teachings of the Bible and the Testimonies of the Spirit of God.

Quote:

God is either teaching His church, reproving their wrongs and strengthening their faith, or He is not. This work is of God, or it is not. God does nothing in partnership with Satan. My work . . . bears the stamp of God or the stamp of the enemy. There is no halfway work in the matter. The Testimonies are of the Spirit of God, or of the devil. As the Lord has manifested Himself through the Spirit of prophecy, past, present, and future have passed before me. I have been shown faces that I had never seen, and years afterward I knew them when I saw them. I have been aroused from my sleep with a vivid sense of subjects previously presented to my mind; and I have written, at midnight, letters that have gone across the continent and, arriving at a crisis, have saved great disaster to the cause of God. This has been my work for many years. A power has impelled me to reprove and rebuke wrongs that I had not thought of. Is this work from above or from beneath. 120 {CCh 93.2}

Satan’s Aim Is to Cause Doubt

In many cases the Testimonies are fully received, the sin and indulgence broken off, and reformation at once commences in harmony with the light God has given. In other instances sinful indulgences are cherished, the Testimonies are rejected, and many excuses which are untrue are offered to others as the reason for refusing to receive them. The true reason is not given. It is a lack of moral courage—a will, strengthened and controlled by the Spirit of God, to renounce hurtful habits. {CCh 93.3}

Satan has ability to suggest doubts and to devise objections to the pointed testimony that God sends, and many think it a virtue, a mark of intelligence in them, to be unbelieving and to question and quibble. Those who desire to doubt will have plenty of room. God does not propose to remove all occasion for unbelief. He gives evidence, which must be carefully investigated with a humble mind and a teachable spirit, and all should decide from the weight of evidence. God gives sufficient evidence for the candid mind to believe; but he who turns from the weight of evidence because there are a few things which he cannot make plain to his finite understanding will be left in the cold, chilling atmosphere of unbelief and questioning doubts, and will make shipwreck of faith. {CCh 93.4}

It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Satan knows how to make his attacks. He works upon minds to excite jealousy and dissatisfaction toward those at the head of the work. {CCh 93.5}

94

The gifts are next questioned; then, of course, they have but little weight, and instruction given through vision is disregarded. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction. By giving place to doubts and unbelief in regard to the work of God, and by cherishing feelings of distrust and cruel jealousies, they are preparing themselves for complete deception. They rise up with bitter feelings against the ones who dare to speak of their errors and reprove their sins. {CCh 94.1}

It is not alone those who openly reject the Testimonies, or who cherish doubt concerning them, that are on dangerous ground. To disregard light is to reject it. {CCh 94.2}

If you lose confidence in the Testimonies you will drift away from Bible truth. I have been fearful that many would take a questioning, doubting position, and in my distress for your souls I would warn you. How many will heed the warning? 121 {CCh 94.3}

[Woody]

I'm feeling sick.

[CoAspen]

Houston, we have a problem.....

My reading of the posts says that TW notes that the Bible does not say Noah preached. That was agreed too by John. TW also points out the chronology of the building of the Ark, based on Bible texts. TW also mentions that Peter calls Noah a preacher. No heresy here just pointing out the lack of Biblical verification o Noah being a preacher. He goes on to note that our predominant source for this belief is from EGW.

TW does not say what he believes or disbelieves, just supplies corroborating evidence to support a previous statement by poster Dr. Rich from the Bible. John then goes on to ask the if TW believes in EGW writings. TW does not directly answer, just saying it is extra Biblical.

Asking about EGW does not directly go to TW's answer but does more to direct away from his post that the Bible does not give direct evidence in this matter. Because TW does not engage in a rebut for rebut we get a long post of 'out of context' quotes strung together to suggest TW or someone or whomever that doesn't agree with Johns posting or interpretation of TW's post is in dire danger.

Why not just answer TW from the Bible and be down with it. We are fast approaching the making of a mountain out of a molehill!!!

[ClubV12]

I've heard it said Adventists are experts at majoring on minor's.

...just sayin'...

Thanks for Cliff Notes review CoAspen, I was completely lost!

[Stan]

I have found adventist to be among the greatest people on earth.

That has been my experience.

[ClubV12]

I didn't meant to poke anyone with a stick, Stan, just making a tongue in cheek remark that seemed kind of applicable to the thread.

Adventist are the finest people to tread shoe leather I've ever met. :)

[Tom Wetmore]

One might ask why I did what appeared to be in furtherance of a derailment of a topic I started about a book that everyone would rather talk about, talk around, talk past, and avoid talking about, rather than actually read and discuss... And even to do so at the risk of the very real and predictable possibility that it would turn, as it has, into an Adventist Inquisition to test faith in EGW.

Love Wins is a book that questions tradition, long-held, deeply entrenched traditional beliefs of eternal consequence. It ask questions. And it seeks Biblical answers, not what people say based on tradition. What the Bible says matters. What other people say it says doesn't matter. The book doesn't matter either, really. It is what Scriptures says that counts for our eternal destiny. And when anyone bucks tradition, whether it is evangelical, or Adventist, people get uncomfortable and testy even on matters of little eternal consequence like whether Noah preached or not. They feel a need to draw lines in the sand and cast judgment.

And the point is missed.

Read the book. Then let's discuss it.

[CoAspen]

[Dr. Rich]

Yes, lets all read the book and I do appoligize for even bringing up Noah's life. Yet, from what TW so wonderfully wrote about the book, the replies on this thread alone prove how dangerious it is to bring something up that goes against tredition.

Now, while your at it in your attempt to prove your points from the bible, can someone please show us Obama's real birth cirtificate? (snicker) And to think that some people even thought that the world was flat at one time? Hmmmm?

[fccool]

So, If God acts in a way that's not written into the Bible... and saves the entire human race, that would make him somehow less good? Is it you or your pride speaking there?

I believe God respects our choices. He takes them seriously. But if God saves everyone, it means people weren't able to choose, because many people have chosen to reject God.

Upon what basis would God save someone like Hitler? He killed himself in complete rebellion against God. Do you think God will change people against their wills?

Most of the people of earth in such case don't reject God. They reject a version of God that's rendered to them in a rather incoherent form.

If they had better understanding of God, and better understanding of reality... there would not be a need for harsh solutions.

People like Hitler are simply misdirected. They have a solution for the problems of Germany, crime, poverty... and in their mind ends justify the means. If you look at US treatment of Japanese at times of war, it's the same type of ends justifying the means type of solution mentality.

Such mentality exists because God "does not exist" outside of a Book and some "feeling" that you describe. Perhaps there's a reason why God does not simply show up at our door, but I doubt very much it's for the reasons you present. I've already shown you that your reasoning (i.e. it would negate the free choice) is quite illogical.