Why was Job chosen?

[Sonny]

the reason Elihu didn't get in trouble with God the way the other three men did is that Elihu was young (32:6)

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

He was blameless as to his friends' charge that he was suffering because of his wickedness.

Let’s go on to chapter 10, and you will notice that Job is now defending his righteousness even before God. Job 10:2:

“I will say to God: Do not condemn me, but tell me what charges you have against me.”

Job is so confident that he is sinless, look at verses 23-24:

How many wrongs and sins have I committed? Show me my offense and my sin. Why do you hide your face and consider me your enemy?

Was Job claiming absolute sinlessness? That's ridiculous. But he did not commit the sins his friends had charged him with for which they claimed he was suffering.

[Sonny]

But he did not commit the sins his friends had charged him with for which they claimed he was suffering.

Which sins are those?

[Gerr]

At first Eliphaz speaks in generalities and obliquely at Job. In Job 4:7-8 he says: ESV | Job 4:7 “Remember: who that was innocent ever perished? Or where were the upright cut off? 8 As I have seen, those who plow iniquity and sow trouble reap the same. In 5:2-3 Eliphaz indirectly calls him a fool & guilty of jealousy.

Bildad, in 8:6 says, "if you are pure and upright, surely then he will rouse himself for you and restore your rightful habitation." The implication is that Job was not "pure & upright." Like Eliphaz, only talking in generalities.

Zophar also talks in generalities like "iniquity" & "injustice" 11:14.

Eliphas in his 2nd speech again speaks in generalities: "doing away with the fear of God" 15:4, & "iniquity" 15:5,that he has turned his "spirit against God," 15:13, "abominable & corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water." 15:16.

Etc.

[Sonny]

Okay, lots of generalities.....

But remember the real problem is that He justified himself instead of God: "Let me be measured in upright scales, and let God see my righteousness" [Job 31:6 BBE]

Keep in mind Job's three friends failed to refute Job, yet they condemned him anyway:

"He [Elihu] was also angry at Job's three friends because they had failed to refute him, and yet had condemned him." [Job 32:3 CSB]

But Elihu was also angry with Job. Why? "...because he [Job] justified himself rather than God." [Job 32:2] That's the issue that you and John need to come to grips with.....Otherwise no progress will be made.

[Sonny]

So if you guys can't refute what I've stated you simply ignore it? Am I to take silence as surrender to this truth? I guess so....

[Woody]

We only stand for Truth here.

[Gerr]

So if you guys can't refute what I've stated you simply ignore it? Am I to take silence as surrender to this truth? I guess so....

If you were charged with a crime/sin that you are not guilty of, would justify yourself or God?

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

So if you guys can't refute what I've stated you simply ignore it? Am I to take silence as surrender to this truth? I guess so....

If you were charged with a crime/sin that you are not guilty of, would justify yourself or God?

"Let me [Job] be measured in upright scales, and let God see my righteousness" [Job 31:6 BBE]

Job justified himself not only to his three friends, but God Himself.

Let me ask you a question, Gerry: In the judgment will God justify you before His law in Christ's holy history (which includes the imparted & imputed righteousness of Christ) or will you attempt to justify yourself before God and His law? I hope your answer won't be that last part. Why? Clearly no one can justify himself before God. To make such attempt would be self-righteous.

[Gerr]

Job justified himself not only to his three friends, but God Himself.

Let me ask you a question, Gerry: In the judgment will God justify you before His law in Christ's holy history (which includes the imparted & imputed righteousness of Christ) or will you attempt to justify yourself before God and His law? I hope your answer won't be that last part. Why? Clearly no one can justify himself before God. To make such attempt would be self-righteous.

Wrong question!!! In the judgment, NO ONE will accuse me of a crime/sin I didn't do. When Satan accuses me wrongdoing, he's got a record of it. Therefore, I cannot justify myself. Notice that when God said, "Have you considered my servant, Job?" Satan could not think of any sin that Job was presently guilty of. Instead he accused God of putting a hedge around him.

So let me ask you again, if someone accused you of a crime/sin you did not commit, whom would you justify? God or yourself?

[skyblue888]

I don't know how many times we have had this debate here on AO.

Two passages of Scripture and four statements come to mind:

"Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness, says the Lord." Ezekiel 14:14.

"Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord." James 5:11.

Four statements:

"Job's professed friends were miserable comforters, making his case more bitter and unbearable, and Job was not guilty as they supposed." T.M.350.

"They (disciples of Christ) could understand the mystery of His mission no more than the friends of Job could understand his humiliation and suffering." D.A.88.

"There is wickedness in our world, but all the suffering is not the result of a perverted course of life. Job is brought distinctly before us as a man whom the Lord allowed Satan to afflict. The enemy stripped him of all he possessed; his family ties were broken; his children were taken from him. For a time his body was covered with loathsome sores, and he suffered greatly. His friends came to comfort him, but they tried to make him see that he was responsible, by his sinful course, for his afflictions. But he defended himself, and denied the charge, declaring, Miserable comforters are ye all. By seeking to make him guilty before God, and deserving of His punishment, they brought a grievous test upon him, and rerpesented God in a false light; but Job did not swerve from his loyalty, and God rewarded His faithful servant." MS 22, 1898; 3 B.C.1140.

"The self-justification which he felt was necessary to withstand the condemnation of his friends is not necessary toward God." 3 T 509.

sky

[Sonny]

So let me ask you again, if someone accused you of a crime/sin you did not commit, whom would you justify? God or yourself?

God is my justifier. I have nothing I can present to Him....

As to Job - his three friends didn't accuse him of any specific sin yet they condemned Job. As you say, his three friends spoke in generalities.

Let me give you clarity again: Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 Then Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, burned with anger. [Why?]

He burned with anger at Job because he justified himself rather than God.

[iI] 3 He burned with anger also at Job's three friends because they had found no answer, although they had declared Job to be in the wrong.

[Sonny]

I don't know how many times we have had this debate here on AO.

It's an important one; I'll tell you why: Many will come up short in the judgment because it's not Christ righteousness they are experiencing, but their own self-righteousness, which is iniquity.

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Here are people who claim Christ, yet like Job all they do is to be "seen of men". Outwardly they keep the law, but inwardly their motive is for self-centered reasons. They aren't keeping the law; they are keeping sin.

[Sonny]

"Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness, says the Lord." Ezekiel 14:14.

[Sonny]

Ask yourself if Job sounds like a humble man that has no confidence in his works. Keep in mind Paul's statement in Phil chapter 3 as you read Job chapter 31:

Phil 3:3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh-- 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: [Paul now makes a list of all those things he use to have bragging rites in, ending with verse 6:] "As to righteousness under the law, blameless."

Now Job 31:1 "I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl. 2 For what is man's lot from God above, his heritage from the Almighty on high? 3 Is it not ruin for the wicked, disaster for those who do wrong? 4 Does he not see my ways and count my every step? 5 "If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit-- 6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless-- 7 if my steps have turned from the path, if my heart has been led by my eyes, or if my hands have been defiled, 8 then may others eat what I have sown, and may my crops be uprooted. 9 "If my heart has been enticed by a woman, or if I have lurked at my neighbor's door, 10 then may my wife grind another man's grain, and may other men sleep with her. 11 For that would have been shameful, a sin to be judged. 12 It is a fire that burns to Destruction; it would have uprooted my harvest. 13 "If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants when they had a grievance against me, 14 what will I do when God confronts me? What will I answer when called to account? 15 Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers? 16 "If I have denied the desires of the poor or let the eyes of the widow grow weary, 17 if I have kept my bread to myself, not sharing it with the fatherless-- 18 but from my youth I reared him as would a father, and from my birth I guided the widow-- 19 if I have seen anyone perishing for lack of clothing, or a needy man without a garment, 20 and his heart did not bless me for warming him with the fleece from my sheep, 21 if I have raised my hand against the fatherless, knowing that I had influence in court, 22 then let my arm fall from the shoulder, let it be broken off at the joint. 23 For I dreaded destruction from God, and for fear of his splendor I could not do such things. 24 "If I have put my trust in gold or said to pure gold, 'You are my security,' 25 if I have rejoiced over my great wealth, the fortune my hands had gained, 26 if I have regarded the sun in its radiance or the moon moving in splendor, 27 so that my heart was secretly enticed and my hand offered them a kiss of homage, 28 then these also would be sins to be judged, for I would have been unfaithful to God on high. 29 "If I have rejoiced at my enemy's misfortune or gloated over the trouble that came to him-- 30 I have not allowed my mouth to sin by invoking a curse against his life-- 31 if the men of my household have never said, 'Who has not had his fill of Job's meat?'-- 32 but no stranger had to spend the night in the street, for my door was always open to the traveler-- 33 if I have concealed my sin as men do, by hiding my guilt in my heart 34 because I so feared the crowd and so dreaded the contempt of the clans that I kept silent and would not go outside-- 35 ("Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense--let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; like a prince I would approach him.)-- 38 "if my land cries out against me and all its furrows are wet with tears, 39 if I have devoured its yield without payment or broken the spirit of its tenants, 40 then let briers come up instead of wheat and weeds instead of barley." The words of Job are ended.

Now read Job the first part of Job chapter 32:

1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 Then Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, burned with anger. He burned with anger at Job because he justified himself rather than God. 3 He burned with anger also at Job's three friends because they had found no answer, although they had declared Job to be in the wrong.

This is very clear, guys...but it seems you are biased to your own private interpretation.

[Gerr]

1. Job justified himself because he was charged with wickedness he was not guilty of.

2. God, at the very beginning of the book, said Job was "There is no one one the earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." He did not say that Job only THOUGHT he was upright & blameless. Either God was telling the truth or He was lying. It is impossible for God to lie.

3. The narrator on the very first verse said he was "blameless & upright; he feared God & shunned evil." In 2:3, God repeats His testimony, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.”

4. According to the Bible, one needs 2 or 3 witnesses to establish fact. We have the witness of the narrator and God, and God testifies 2X that Job was blameless & upright, feared God & SHUNNED evil. NONE of these witnesses claimed Job only thought he was righteous. If he only thought so, the witnesses to his character would have been liars because the world is FULL of people who think of themselves righteous when they are not.

5. If Job's friends were correct that he was in fact wicked, God would have had no reason to brag about Job and that Satan would have been the one doing the bragging because Job would have been his slave in the first place.

6. If Job's friends were correct that he was wicked, God would have commended them instead of reproving them.

7. If Job was guilty of wickedness, God would have been rewarding evil with good when he restored his fortunes.

[Woody]

1. Job justified himself because he was charged with wickedness he was not guilty of.

2. God, at the very beginning of the book, said Job was "There is no one one the earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." He did not say that Job only THOUGHT he was upright & blameless. Either God was telling the truth or He was lying. It is impossible for God to lie.

3. The narrator on the very first verse said he was "blameless & upright; he feared God & shunned evil." In 2:3, God repeats His testimony, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.”

4. According to the Bible, one needs 2 or 3 witnesses to establish fact. We have the witness of the narrator and God, and God testifies 2X that Job was blameless & upright, feared God & SHUNNED evil. NONE of these witnesses claimed Job only thought he was righteous. If he only thought so, the witnesses to his character would have been liars because the world is FULL of people who think of themselves righteous when they are not.

5. If Job's friends were correct that he was in fact wicked, God would have had no reason to brag about Job and that Satan would have been the one doing the bragging because Job would have been his slave in the first place.

6. If Job's friends were correct that he was wicked, God would have commended them instead of reproving them.

7. If Job was guilty of wickedness, God would have been rewarding evil with good when he restored his fortunes.

As I recall ... a murderer got the same recommendation.

[Sonny]

If Job's friends were correct....

[Gerr]

As I recall ... a murderer got the same recommendation.

Oh, so now God rewards evil with good?

[Sonny]

If Job was guilty of wickedness, God would have been rewarding evil with good when he restored his fortunes.

Job repented of his self-righteous justification of himself. When Job was humbled then, not before, God restored his goods.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Woody

As I recall ... a murderer got the same recommendation.

Oh, so now God rewards evil with good?

He causes his sun [blessings] to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain [again, blessings] on the righteous and the unrighteous.

[Sonny]

1. Job justified himself because he was charged with wickedness he was not guilty of.

God didn't make that charge to Job. In fact He told Satan that Job was a righteous man. The question is righteous by faith or works? Clearly works.

My point? Since God didn't make the charge, why did Job justify himself to God? Answer: He was self-righteous!

[Sonny]

Luke 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' 14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Job viewed himself as righteous. God viewed him as vile. He humbled Job by partially removing Himself from Job's life. When Job was humbled, he repented. Then Job was exalted.

[John317]

Job viewed himself as righteous. God viewed him as vile.

Job viewed himself as innocent of his friend's accusations. He knew he wasn't being punished because of some evil he had done.

Here's both the narrator and God in regard to Job's character:

Job 1:1

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:1

There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil.

God's testimony:

Job 1:8

And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2:3

And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

NOTE: The book loses its basic message-- which is the suffering of the innocent in a fallen world-- if Job is actually suffering because of his sins.

Did Job speak foolishly in his pain and desperation? Yes. Did he say things out of ignorance? Yes. Is Job a sinner and imperfect? Yes. But those things are not the reason for Job's suffering. Chapters 1 and 2 tell us plainly why Job is suffering, and it has nothing to do with his sins.

[Sonny]

NOTE: The book loses its basic message-- which is the suffering of the innocent in a fallen world-- if Job is actually suffering because of his sins.

We all suffer the effects of sin; so that's a moot point. Job suffered the consequences of self-righteousness. After all he justified his righteousness before God.

The Jews rejected the Son of God. They had the law, after all. What happened is recorded in Matt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

What happened in 70AD? Where was God? Why did God move on? Answer: Self-righteousness.

The difference between the Jews and Job is that Job was ignorant of his predicament. The Jews had evidence of the resurrection of Christ, yet they knowingly rejected Him. Hence in Job's case God partially abandoned him, but in the Jews case God fully abandoned the unbelieving Jews.