Why was Job chosen?

[Sonny]

Hmmmm. Still palming off an erroneous notion as though fact, eh?

Job's justification of himself before God:

Job 31:6 ...Let God weigh me in honest scales and He will know that I am blameless-- 35 Let the Almighty answer me; let My Accuser put His indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; like a prince I would approach him....

Elihu points out Job's problem:

Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 Then Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, burned with anger. He burned with anger at Job because he justified himself rather than God. 3 He burned with anger also at Job's three friends because they had found no answer, although they had declared Job to be in the wrong....35:2 Do you think it is just when you say, "I am righteous before God"?

God rebukes Job:

Job 38:1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: 2 "Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?"

Job's repentance:

Job 40:3 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth....42:5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

[Gerr]

Well, God didn't test Job. Job, through his self-righteous spirit placed himself outside God's protection.

This is a denial of what Scripture plainly says:

ESV | Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 8 And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

ESV | Job 2:4 Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “Skin for skin! All that a man has he will give for his life. 5 But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face.” 6 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.

So where does it say that Job placed himself outside of God's protection?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Hmmmm. Still palming off an erroneous notion as though fact, eh?

Job's justification of himself before God:

Job 31:6 ...Let God weigh me in honest scales and He will know that I am blameless-- 35 Let the Almighty answer me; let My Accuser put His indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; like a prince I would approach him....

Was Job guilty of the sins his friends said he was guilty of? If you were charged with a crime/sin you did not commit, whom would you justify? God or yourself?

Quote:

Elihu points out Job's problem:

Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 Then Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, burned with anger. He burned with anger at Job because he justified himself rather than God. 3 He burned with anger also at Job's three friends because they had found no answer, although they had declared Job to be in the wrong....35:2 Do you think it is just when you say, "I am righteous before God"?

He was righteous in his own eyes because he was NOT guilty of the charges!!!

Quote:

God rebukes Job:

Job 38:1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: 2 "Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?"

Job's repentance:

Job 40:3 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth....42:5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

So what did God rebuke Job for? Self-righteousness? Show it!!!

[Sonny]

Luke 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' 14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

What can we learn from the above? That you never, ever parade your righteousness before God. Those who do cannot be justified by God.

Clearly Job justified himself to God. That is very clear. If one can't see the self-righteousness in Job's life then maybe he or she is too much like Job before he was humbled.

[Sonny]

So what did God rebuke Job for? Self-righteousness? Show it!!!

I already have....Where were you? It takes a little reasoning ability to see Job's problem....

We already know that Job justified myself before God. That's clear. How did Job justify himself before God? Answer: By using his mouth.

When God humbled Job what happened? Answer: He covered his mouth with his hand. Why?

The first thing God says when He meets up with Job is, "Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?"

It was Elihu who previous counseled Job. He tried to make him see that his problem was self-righteousness (self-justification). Instead time after time we see Job continue to present his righteousness. That's why when God meets up to him, Job covered his mouth. Suddenly he's not blameless anymore. Let's look at this:

Job 40:3 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth."

Why did Job lay his hand over his mouth? I'll let Job answer this:

Job 42:3 You asked, 'Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?' I [Job] have uttered what I did not understand [he couldn't see his self-righteousness].... 5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You [He sees righteousness]. 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

Now some Ellen White statement:

He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived.... He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption.

When Job heard the voice of the Lord out of the whirlwind, he exclaimed: “I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” Job 42:6. ….There can be no self-exaltation, no boastful claim to freedom from sin, on the part of those who walk in the shadow of Calvary’s cross. They feel that it was their sin which caused the agony that broke the heart of the Son of God, and this thought will lead them to self-abasement.

Then will the commandments [the spirit of the law] come home to the soul in their real force. Sin will appear exceedingly sinful. . . . There is no longer self-righteousness, self-esteem, self-honor. Self-security is gone. Deep conviction of sin and self-loathing is the result, and the soul in its desperate sense of peril lays hold on the blood of the Lamb of God as his only remedy. . .

[Gerr]

Strike 4, yer out! You are a demander for context and here you are, you keep going outside the context of Job!

1. You keep ignoring the reason for Job insisting he was not guilty of his friends' charges. He would have been lying if he said they were right, i.e. that he was suffering because of his own sins.

2. Where in the Book of Job did God rebuke Job for self-righteousness? God's testimony was that Job spoke of God what is right, Job 42:7,8. And He said it TWICE!!!

[Gerr]

When God humbled Job what happened? Answer: He covered his mouth with his hand. Why?

The first thing God says when He meets up with Job is, "Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?"

It was Elihu who previous counseled Job. He tried to make him see that his problem was self-righteousness (self-justification). Instead time after time we see Job continue to present his righteousness. That's why when God meets up to him, Job covered his mouth. Suddenly he's not blameless anymore. Let's look at this:

Job 40:3 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 4 "Behold, [color:#990000]I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth."

Why did Job lay his hand over his mouth? I'll let Job answer this:

Job 42:3 You asked, 'Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?' I [Job] have uttered what I did not understand

There is your answer why he called himself vile. Does God call him vile anywhere in the book?

Quote:

[he couldn't see his self-righteousness]....

NOT IN THE BIBLE. That's an ADDITION!!!

Quote:

5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You [He sees righteousness].

Again, NOT IN THE BIBLE.

Quote:

Now some Ellen White statement:

Out of context!!! You are misusing her words. Here is what she had to say about Job:

Of Job, the patriarch of Uz, the testimony of the Searcher of hearts was, "There is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil." {Ed 155.2}

Against this man, Satan brought scornful charge: "Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast Thou not made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? . . . Put forth Thine hand now, and touch all that he hath;" "touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse Thee to Thy face." {Ed 155.3}

5. Job as a Faithful Priest.—It were well for parents to learn from the man of Uz a lesson of steadfastness and devotion. Job did not neglect his duty to those outside of his household; he was benevolent, kind, thoughtful of the interest of others; and at the same time he labored earnestly for the salvation of his own family. Amid the festivities of his sons and daughters, he trembled lest his children should displease God. As a faithful priest of the household, he offered sacrifices for them individually. He knew the offensive character of sin, and the thought that his children might forget the divine claims, led him to God as an intercessor in their behalf (RH Aug 30, 1881).

"he knew the offensive character of sin..." that would have certainly included the sin of self-righteousness!!!

[Sonny]

He would have been lying if he said they were right, i.e. that he was suffering because of his own sins.

[Sonny]

{Ed 155.3}, RH Aug 30, 1881)

Out of context, Gerry.

[Sonny]

"he knew the offensive character of sin..." that would have certainly included the sin of self-righteousness!!!

No, not necessarily. Many folks have been caught up in self-righteousness. It's a deceiver.

[Sonny]

Job 42:3 You asked, 'Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?' I [Job] have uttered what I did not understand

There is your answer why he called himself vile. Does God call him vile anywhere in the book?

Job called himself "vile" because he realized that all his righteousness was filthy rags. Elihu pointed this out and God brought it home....

Yes, God didn't call his self-righteousness "vile", but neither did God disagree with Job's self-assessment of himself.

[Sonny]

Well, do we agree now, or no?

[Nic Samojluk]

The underlying assumption seems to be that someone recorded those long speeches pronounced by each of the protagonists of the story. There is another alternative. The author of the book wrote this fictional story in order to debunk the Deuteronomic belief that if you are a righteous individuals, God will protect you from all evil; but if you are a hypocrite, he will punish you for your evil deeds. One of the most knowledgeable experts in Jewish culture explained this as follows: The Old Testament Jews were more concerned about the moral of the story than the factuality of the details included in the story.

Those long speeches by Job, his friends, and even God are an evidence that the author was not trying to record for posterity the actual words of the speakers, but rather develop his basic motif in such a manner hat it would impact the audience. The details of the story are not true to life. I have never witnessed in a real life situation where a series of long-lasting lasting monologues take place in such an orderly fashion. Such long unnatural speeches are found in other Jewish writers such as Josephus. In real life a person is rarely given a chance to such long exchanges between real people.

[Woody]

good thoughts Nic

[Gerr]

Well, do we agree now, or no?

You addressed this to yourself, so you can certainly agree with yourself. But with me - NO!

[Gerr]

Oh, so Job is fictional, and Deutoronomy cannot be believed. That would make Noah and Daniel fictional too. Any other parts of the Bible that are fictional, Nic?

[Woody]

Oh, so Job is fictional, and Deutoronomy cannot be believed. That would make Noah and Daniel fictional too. Any other parts of the Bible that are fictional, Nic?

Gerry Gerry. Please list for us the parts of the Bible that you personally believe to be fiction if any.

[Sonny]

But with me - NO!

But your argument is extremely weak....

[Gerr]

Woody, Woody, Woody, be a little bit more careful. My post was in response to what Nic said. See the second paragraph of his post.

[Woody]

Oh. Now I c

[Nic Samojluk]

Oh, so Job is fictional, and Deutoronomy cannot be believed. That would make Noah and Daniel fictional too. Any other parts of the Bible that are fictional, Nic?

Yes, the story of Lazarus in Abraham bosom, told by Jesus himself, and the apocalyptic literature which uses individuals and animals to portray reality. The Deuteronomy principle suggesting that the just are always rewarded and the evil doers are always punished is negated in Scripture quite often. Read the Psalms of David who quite often complained about this fact. Look also at the experience of God’s prophets, John the Baptist, the disciples of Jesus, and the story of Jesus himself. All of them were persecuted and martyred for being righteous. Contrast this with the success of so many evildoers!

[skyblue888]

I just finished reading the whole thread. Now I would ask you to please read the following article through to its completion. I realize it is a bit longer than a normal post but it must be read without interruption and then your comments will be appreciated. Thank you for your attention.

In chapter one, verse one, of the book of Job, the God of Heaven describes Job as being a perfect and an upright man. In other words, Job did keep the law of God to the satisfaction of the Lord Himself, for, if He should describe Job as being perfect and an upright man, then he must have been just that.

It follows then, that the life of Job was a clear-cut proof that the argument of the devil that the law could not be kept by human beings, was a false argument indeed. If Job was keeping that law, then any other man who would walk with God as Job did, could also keep that law. The very life of Job proved that the claims of the devil were false. The law of God was not too difficult for man to obey. (Deut.30:11-14)

Knowing full well the stand of the devil, and the arguments that he used to maintain his position, the Lord laid out a very definite challenge before him on the occasion when the Sons of God met together for council. This is recorded in verse eight of the first chapter.

Then the Lord said unto Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil."

Let us not make the mistake of thinking that the Lord was taunting Satan, because it is not in the heart of the Lord to do such a thing. Instead, He was making a great and loving appeal to him. He was saying in effect, "Satan, why go on longer adding sin to sin, and building for yourself a greater retribution when the case is closed?' Job has demonstrated that the law can be kept and so your whole position is proved wrong."

But would the devil admit that his whole position was so evidently wrong? Never! When the Lord said that Job was living a perfect life, then that was exactly what Job was doing, and it was more than the devil could do to find anything that Job was doing that was actually wrong. In his reply to God, he did not attempt to find any fault with Job. Rather he admitted that the Lords claim was quite true and right. Knowing better than to attack from this angle, he turned instead to impugn the motives of the servant of the Lord and even of the Lord Himself! He charged Job with self-seeking and self-serving, and the Lord with underhandedness!

"Does Job fear God for nothing," he asked? "Have you not made an hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the works of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But now, stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face!" Job 1:9-11.

This is a very heavy charge to lay to the Lord. It was the charge that God and Job were working hand in hand to prove the devil wrong by putting up an artificial case. The Lord was paying Job very handsomely to serve him faultlessly, and Job, as an hired servant, was responding very well by giving the Lord what He wanted of him. All that was needed to reveal the true nature of the case was for God to cease the payments, and in no time the servant would curse God and obey the devil. Then it would be seen that, after all, the law of God could not be obeyed in all circumstances, and that the case of Job proved nothing at all. Such in effect was the argument that the devil put to the Lord on that occasion.

It was entirely a false argument, and the Lord knew this, and He was well prepared to let the battle between the good and the evil be carried one step further, so that righteousness could be vindicated and the enemy of His people exposed. So He told the devil that he could go ahead and test his argument by taking the possessions of Job.

So the case could now be settled only by delivering Job into the hands of Satan to rest and to prove him. And how the devil went to work to break Job at all costs. He swept away all his possessions, and killed all his children with devastating suddenness. As shock after shock fell upon him, Job endured the storm and did not fall in the least. Calmly and patiently he said, "The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord." Job 1:21.

And even yet the devil would not admit defeat, and so the Lord allowed him to take away his very health, until in utter misery he sat on a heap of ashes, and wished that he had never been born, but still his loyalty to God remained steadfast.

Now that the devil had reduced him to this desperate situation, he brought to him three of the notable theologians of the time, and these sat down with him to counsel with him in this dark hour. And we can say without fear of contradiction, that although these men were theologians and professedly the ministers of the gospel, it was the devil who brought them to Job, and it was the devil who used them in an attempt to deceive Job with his fatal sophistry that it is impossible to live righteously. With weighty and solemn words they pressed upon Job the discouraging idea that if anyone was wicked he certainly was, for the Lord never punished anyone who was undeserving of it anyway.

But how is it that we know positively that those men were speaking the devil's arguments? The evidence is right in the book itself. Please turn to Job 42:7, and there we read these words: "The Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends: for you have not spoken of Me the thing that is right, as My servant Job has."

This is the word of the Lord. Therefore it is the truth. So we must conclude that if Eliphaz has spoken that which was not right, then he had been speaking a lie. And if he had spoken that which was a lie, then he certainly had not spoken it of God but of the devil, who is the father of all lies. Therefore, it was the devil and not the Lord who had sent Eliphaz and his companions to "advise" Job. They were his mouthpiece and as such expressed his thoughts and his ideas mixed, of course, with some truth, as always! Now let us turn to the fourth chapter where we find there the devil stating in plain terms the charge that it is impossible for human beings, in this life, to keep the law of God perfectly.

Verse one of the chapter identifies Eliphaz as the speaker. Now, what gives the argument greater weight is that he states that he received this "by inspiration." In verse 12-14 he describes his going into a night vision, and in verse 15, he says, "Then a spirit passed before my face, the hair on my body stood up: It stood still, but I could not discern its appearance. A form was before mine eyes. There was silence: Then I heard a voice saying..."

Thus Eliphaz describes his inspiration which he claimed to be from God, but which the Lord denied as coming from Him when He charged Eliphaz with speaking that which was a lie. And now here in verse 17 and onwards, we have, in plain language, the very charge of Satan that the law cannot be kept perfectly. Here is one place where he has really come out in the open with it. We shall quote it from the Revised Standard Version.

"Can a mortal man be righteous before God? Can a man be pure before His maker?"

This is a rhetorical question. A rhetorical question is really a statement framed in question form to give the statement more impact. What Eliphaz is really saying, as he himself makes plain in the next verse is this: 'Surely you are not going to even make so much as a suggestion that you could believe that it is possible for a mortal man to keep the law of God perfectly?'

That this is the meaning and understanding, is evident from his following words. He goes on to say, "Even in His servants He puts no trust and His angels He charges with error. How much more those who dwell in houses of clay?" Verse 18.

And all this is uttered in such a scornful, incredelous tone as to dismiss all further argument on the matter. Why, he says, if even the angels are charged by God as being sinners, what hope does a mortal man have of ever measuring up to the requirements of God?

And, in view of the depth and extent to which this lie has been for so long accepted by the human family, it is not an easy question for any human being to answer in the affirmative. Eliphaz fully expected Job to quail before that question, and to respond by saying it was not possible for a man to live righteously before God. But here he was disappointed, for Job was a man who had experienced the power of God to keep him from falling, and knew by that experience that it was possible to obey every one of God's holy precepts.

"Humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts." C.O.L.314.

Job had a knowledge of God and His saving power of which Eliphaz knew nothing, and in the light of the conviction and the assurance of that knowledge, he could answer as he did by denying completely the argument of the devil through Eliphaz.

"God forbid that I should justify you," he said. "Till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me. My righteousness (which he had by faith) I hold fast, and will not let it go; my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live." Job 27:5,6. *parenthesis supplied

"Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job were in the land, they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness, says the Lord." Ezekiel 14:14.

"Their righteousness is from Me, saith the Lord." Isaiah 54:17

This sums up the persistent stand that Job took to his persecutors throughout the whole of the long battle with them. Only a man with living faith such as Job had, could answer as he did.

"Can a mortal man be righteous before God? Can a man be pure before His maker?" He most certainly can! He most positively, definitely, assuredly and decidedly can! If it is not possible for a man to live righteously, this side of Heaven, then where is the power of Christ in the gospel?

Are you prepared to believe that the power of sin is greater than the power of the gospel? Would you teach that Satan is stronger than Christ? The gospel is the living power of God to save from sin, and this it really does whenever a believing heart comes to God trusting wholly in the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Savior!

"We cannot explain this faith that lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Savior to bring Christ's righteousness into the life... which accomplishes everything." F.W.65,66,27.

"Through the virtue of the merits of the blood of Christ we may stand unscathed amid the fire of temptation and trial." Ibid,87.

Thus plainly and clearly the devil's lie is exposed for what it is. We are to know that this is his lie so that no matter from what source this lie may be presented to us, we will know that we must instantly, positively and decidedly reject is for what it is. IT IS A FATAL SOPHISTRY.

"Through defects in the character, Satan works to gain control of the whole mind, and he knows that if these defects are cherished he will succeed. Therefore he is constantly seeking to deceive the followers of Christ with his fatal sophistry that it is impossible for them to overcome." G.C.489.

We will hear it argued with authority and vehemence from the pulpits; we will read it in religious publications and forums; the almost total majority of this world's inhabitants will endorse it in any kind of issue over the matter; we will stand largely alone if we reject this lie of Satan; our dearest and nearest friends and relatives will urge it upon us, and closest of all, our own hearts will even suggest it many times.

But every such voice is from the devil, the father of lies. We are to learn to be quick to recognize his voice in those assertions no matter by whom they may be spoken upon this earth. Our very own safety for this life and the life to come depends upon it.

Never forget nor lose sight of the fact that there in the word of God, that lie is exposed for what it is, and thus there is no excuse for any failure on our part to escape the deception and the consequences of it. See G.C.516.

sky

"From the very beginning, it has been the special doctrine of the adversary of God and man to declare that it is impossible for man to keep the precepts of Jehovah. This has been, and still is the work of Satan. This is the seductive doctrine that devils are seeking to spread throughout the world." Review and Herald, July 31, 1888; D.A.24.

[Sonny]

Not one mention of Elihu! Why? Because Ellen White is well known to spiritualize the Bible to get her message across. In itself that's fine, but when one uses her as a Divine commentator of the Bible one runs into trouble. We must make the Bible the test of truth.

Update: I just did a search on "Elihu" at "The OFFICIAL Ellen G. White Website". There's not one mention of Elihu. Apparently God didn't reveal to her the truth I'm presenting. Why? Ellen White didn't have all truth*. She was never meant to replace honest Bible study.

* Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

[ClubV12]

EGW, "...but when one uses her as a Divine commentator of the Bible one runs into trouble."

No trouble at all. That is exactly what she is, just like the many prophets before her.

[Sonny]

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

Glimmer: "A faint manifestation or indication; a trace: a glimmer of understanding."

So Ellen White had no light concerning Elihu, which completely changes the traditional view of Job. She had only a faint understanding and therefore she spiritualized the book of Job to get across her message.