Why was Job chosen?

[Gerr]

Yes, the story of Lazarus in Abraham bosom, told by Jesus himself, and the apocalyptic literature which uses individuals and animals to portray reality. The Deuteronomy principle suggesting that the just are always rewarded and the evil doers are always punished is negated in Scripture quite often. Read the Psalms of David who quite often complained about this fact.

So the book Dt is fictional? Was Dt a revelation of all the truths? Or was Dt meant to reveal to us that generally speaking, we reap what we sow? There is a progression of truth from Gen to Rev.

As to Lazarus, it has to be a parable because the testimony of Scripture is that death is a sleep.

Would Jesus lump a fictional Job with historical characgters Daniel & Noah? Or are these also fictional?

[Gerr]

So Ellen White had no light concerning Elihu, which completely changes the traditional view of Job. She had only a faint understanding and therefore she spiritualized the book of Job to get across her message.

Argument from silence has never been that fruitful because it can be argued both ways. Even God was silent on Elihu, so what's the big deal that EGW was silent about him?

To accept you novel but erroneous view that Job was self-righteous is to make God's 3x testimony that Job was blameless & upright, and also the narrator's testimony as all lies. The testimony of his 3 friends would then be true. That would make God a liar again because His testimony is that the friends did not speak the truth!

"Let God be true and every man a liar."

And whole book of Job becomes pointless, because if he was guilty of sin, then he was not an innocent sufferer. And Satan would have had no reason to challenge God.

I find no basis whatsoever to accept your interpretation.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

So Ellen White had no light concerning Elihu, which completely changes the traditional view of Job. She had only a faint understanding and therefore she spiritualized the book of Job to get across her message.

Argument from silence has never been that fruitful because it can be argued both ways. Even God was silent on Elihu, so what's the big deal that EGW was silent about him?

To accept you novel but erroneous view that Job was self-righteous is to make God's 3x testimony that Job was blameless & upright, and also the narrator's testimony as all lies. The testimony of his 3 friends would then be true. That would make God a liar again because His testimony is that the friends did not speak the truth!

"Let God be true and every man a liar."

And whole book of Job becomes pointless, because if he was guilty of sin, then he was not an innocent sufferer. And Satan would have had no reason to challenge God.

I find no basis whatsoever to accept your interpretation.

Excellent points Gerry!

sky

[Sonny]

I find no basis whatsoever to accept your interpretation.

That's because you have decided to cover your eyes. I've given you the truth and you've rejected it. So be it.

[Sonny]

God was silent on Elihu, so what's the big deal that EGW was silent about him?

Actually God wasn't silence on Elihu. It was Elihu's counsel to Job that God referred to in Job 38:2

"Who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me."

Had God given Job counsel at this point? No! We know that Job's three friends were in the wrong (see Job 42:7-10); so their counsel could have been referred to by God. That leaves Elihu. It was Elihu's counsel that God was referring to in Job 38:2.

[Sonny]

To accept your novel but erroneous view that Job was self-righteous is to make God's 3x testimony that Job was blameless & upright, and also the narrator's testimony as all lies.

Not at all. Again, what was Job's problem according to Elihu?

[Elihu to Job] Then the wrath of Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, was aroused against Job; his wrath was aroused because he justified himself rather than God. [Job 32:2]

[Elihu to Job] "Do you think it is right for you to claim, 'I am righteous before God'?" Job 35:2

Again, and this is something you repeatedly ignore, Job justified his righteousness before God. This was his sin - the sin of self-righteousness.

So your are right, God cannot lie. Hence the only possible answer is that God presented Job's view of himself before Satan. Why? Because Job wasn't depending on God's justification of him. He was too busy justifying his own self-righteousness. That's why God partially abandoned Job....

[Sonny]

And whole book of Job becomes pointless, because if he was guilty of sin, then he was not an innocent sufferer.

[Gerr]

Whose testimony do you accept? God who testified 3x? Or Elihu who spoke once?

[Gerr]

He was innocent of what Job's three friends were accusing him of.

So you admit he was innocent of the charges?! That's why he was justifying himself!!!

Quote:

His problem wasn't sin, as in keeping rules, his problem was he was proud of his own righteousness to the point of justifying himself before God.

That would have been a sin worse than what his friends were accusing him of!!!

Me blind? Hmmmm. And what do you call it when someone is seeing things that aren't there?

[phkrause]

Good thoughts Sky, excellent synopsis.

[Sonny]

Whose testimony do you accept? God who testified 3x? Or Elihu who spoke once?

Elihu covers chapters 32 through 37. God refers to his counsel when He speaks to Job. God charges Job's three other friends with sin, but He doesn't Elihu. If God doesn't charge Elihu with sin then you shouldn't either!

By the way, Elihu said, "Listen, Job, to what I have to say. Now that I have begun to speak, let me continue. I speak with all sincerity; I speak the truth. [Job 33:1-3]

God never told Job that Elihu wasn't speaking the truth! God sent Elihu, but when Elihu couldn't reach Job with "the truth" God stepped in.

[Sonny]

So you admit he was innocent of the charges?! That's why he was justifying himself!!!

Job 32:1 So these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God. 3 He was also angry with the three friends, because they had found no way to refute Job, and yet had condemned him.

They had no proof that Job had sinned even after Job went to great lengths to prove his righteousness (See Job chapter 31).

Elihu, however, points out the problem in verse 2: "But Elihu ... became very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God."

Yes, Job was a righteous man. He goes to great lengths to prove his righteousness, but the question is was Job's righteousness produced by his own self-efforts or was it by God working in him?

A person depending on God's righteousness has a humble spirit, Job did not. Therefore it was his own self-righteousness.

Again, Ellen White: We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus [a Pharisee], that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

[Sonny]

...(self-righteousness) would have been a sin worse than what his friends were accusing him of!!!

Ah, but they never accused Job of self-righteousness!!! They were in many respects just like Job. They too didn't see his self-righteousness.

Their sin was accusing Job of outward sin when they couldn't prove their accusations.

[Sonny]

Good thoughts Sky, excellent synopsis.

Of course I disagree!

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

Good thoughts Sky, excellent synopsis.

Of course I disagree!

Sonny. R U being disagreeable again? NOW NOW !!!

[Sonny]

That's why he was justifying himself!!!

To justify oneself before God is to present one's righteousness to God. Remember that Job's three friends didn't charge Job of a specific sin. So Job wasn't refuting a singular sin before God. No, Job was presenting his righteousness before God. He's just like the Pharisee that went up to the temple to pray:

"God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get."

This Pharisee was justifying himself before God, just like Job. What does Jesus say happened to this Pharisee?

I tell you, this man [i.e., the tax collector] went down to his house justified, rather than the other [i.e., the Pharisee].

[Sonny]

[Sonny]

According to Ellen White the church does not now have unity because of self-righteousness:

"When God’s people are one in the unity of the Spirit, all of Phariseeism, all of self-righteousness, which was the sin of the Jewish nation, will be expelled from all hearts." [The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, Page 1225]

This tells me that many within the church suffer the same delusion as Job before his transformation.

[Gerr]

‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation." Rev 3:14 ESV

Testimony #1: ESV | Job 1:8 And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?”

Testimony #2: ESV | Job 2:3 And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.”

Testimony #3: ESV | Job 42:8 Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.”

Heb 6:18 "it is impossible for God to lie." ESV

[Sonny]

 Job 1:8 And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?”

Yes, he was blameless, but if you read the whole story (and not just that part you like) you'll learn he was blameless in his own eyes.

[Elihu to Job] Then the wrath of Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, was aroused against Job; his wrath was aroused because he justified himself rather than God. [Job 32:2]

[Elihu to Job] "Do you think it is right for you to claim, 'I am righteous before God'?" Job 35:2

Let me ask you a question, Gerry, would you declare yourself righteous before God?

[Gerr]

Wrong context.

The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation." Rev 3:14 ESV

Testimony #1: ESV | Job 1:8 And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?”

Testimony #2: ESV | Job 2:3 And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.”

Testimony #3: ESV | Job 42:8 Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.”

Heb 6:18 "it is impossible for God to lie." ESV

[Sonny]

 Job 42:8 Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.”

Keep in mind that this was after Job's repentance!

Here's Job's confession: Job 42:3 You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand [i.e., his claims to blamelessness before God]...6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

Just keeping you honest....

[Sonny]

wrong context

Again for God not to lie (and He's not) God had to be presenting Job as Job presented himself to God. Of course you'll say that that it doesn't say that. Well, remember, God can't lie and if you read the whole story you'll see Job wasn't blameless after all. If Job was blameless then why did he repent? Why the change in the holier than thou attitude?

[Sonny]

Rev 12:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.

What is Laodicea to repent of? Well, what's their claim? Doesn't it look a lot like Job's claim?

Their claim is "I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing."

But God views things differently: "But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked."

"You do not realize".....Job had the same problem....He didn't realize that his righteousness was unrighteousness in the sight of God.

[Gerr]

The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation." Rev 3:14 ESV

Testimony #1: ESV | Job 1:8 And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?”

Testimony #2: ESV | Job 2:3 And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.”

Testimony #3: ESV | Job 42:8 Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.”

Heb 6:18 "it is impossible for God to lie." ESV