Did Willie White Influence his mother?

[ClubV12]

...and the books were opened." Daniel 7

Like when the Judge opens your case file in preparation for the coming judgement.

[Guest]

Dan 7:21-23

While I was looking, this horn attacked God's chosen ones and was winning the battle. Then God Most High, the Eternal God, came and judged in favor of his chosen ones, because the time had arrived for them to be given the kingdom. Then I was told by the one standing there: "The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom to appear on earth.

Notice that when this happens they are still here on the earth, and the end has not come yet.

Dan 7:10,11 and flames were dashing out from all around him. Countless thousands were standing there to serve him. The time of judgment began, and the books were opened. I watched closely to see what would happen to this smaller horn because of the arrogant things it was saying.

Again, this plainly shows that the judgment begins while events are still taking place here on earth, and that the end has not come yet. Daniel is still closely watching events unfold here after the judgment has begun.

Rev 14:7,8 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment has come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. And there followed another angel, saying...

Notice that the second angel comes after the judgment begins: "And there followed another angel, saying"...

The 3 angels are not still giving their message after the second coming.

So again, this shows that the judgment begins while events are still unfolding here on earth. There is more proof than this even, but time will not allow me to show it all right now. But this should be sufficient.

[John317]

I don't have time to give Bible studies to professed adventists. But, of course it can be proven from the Bible alone. And rather easily I might add. None of our doctrines require the words of Ellen White, in order to stand.

Although she was instrumental in leading us to the Bible evidence in many cases, and shedding light on it.

I agree with you on all counts, Richard.

When SDAs or former SDAs have made up their mind to reject the Three Angels Messages, it's time to move on to people who haven't rejected it. Millions haven't even heard it yet, and these will accept it gladly when they do.

[John317]

Matt. 22: 1-14 contains a parable that clearly illustrates an Investigative Judgment:

Matthew 22:1-14

And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, [2] "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, [3] and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. [4] Again he sent other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.' [5] But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, [6] while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. [7] The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. [8] Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. [9] Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.' [10] And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

[11] "But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. [12] And he said to him, 'Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. [13] Then the king said to the attendants, 'Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' [14] For many are called, but few are chosen."

NOTE: the King, Jesus, comes to investigate the guests prior to the wedding feast.

[John317]

I know there is a Judgment but not a Pre-Advent Judgment.

I await with eager anticipation your stunning ability to do this. Show us all so that we can put this baby to bed once and for all.

Are you willing to learn and follow the evidence? If so,

see posts#436909 and #436931 for starters.

Rev. 22:12 shows a necesssity for some kind of pre-Advent Judgment:

"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done."

There's a determination, or judgment, of what rewards people will receive at the second coming.

Daniel 7 shows that there are many beings in the universe who are looking on and even involved in a judgment that takes place before Christ returns. We know this because the judgment which is described is taking place while the little-horn power is still active on the earth.

[miz3]

Richard Holbrook,

I am sorry you feel the way you do. However, I do not mind giving Bible Studies to anyone in need. You are in need so I will give you a Bible Study.

Our topic today will be the "interpretation portion" of Daniel chapter 7. This is where the angel tells Daniel the interpretation of what Daniel saw in his vision.

Daniel chapter 7 is a continuation of visions. In this vision Daniel sees the same four(4) beasts that he has seen before in previous chapters of Daniel. These four Kingdoms are indeed Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. It is this fourth beast (Rome) that intrigues Daniel the most. So Daniel inquires about this fourth beast and what it means.

The angel tells Daniel:

“He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.” Daniel 7:23-25.

Rome indeed did devour more of earth’s territory than any of the other of named kingdoms. Rome indeed had 10 Emperors (look at the list of Roman Emperors there actually is more than 10) that ruled with autocratic power. One of these Emperors will take out two other kings. Also under Rome Israel was subdued.

I am not going into any more detail concerning history for this is not a lesson in history. The main fact is that God through this Angel messenger is telling Daniel what is to come for his people (the Children of Israel no one else!).

“But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.” Daniel 7:26-27.

Did you notice the words “the court will sit”? In other words the court will sit and pass judgment on the fourth beast. It is not saying that judgment is made on anything but the fourth beast.

This is like in other Old Testament passages when God passed judgment on Moab, Assyria, Israel (the northern kingdom), etc. This judgment of God is not some pervasive all-consuming judgment on a worldwide basis. It does not say this is a "judgment of the God's people" which you assert is what the "Investigative Judgment" is all about. You are reading into the Bible stuff that is not in evidence.

You are clearly wrong in your applications Richard Holbrook. You are making applications that are not supported by the passages of Daniel chapter 7.

No “Investigative Judgment here!

[miz3]

Richard Holbrook,

This is your second Bible Study,

“Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

8 A second angel followed and said, “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’[a] which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.” Revelation 12:6-13.

This entire passage has been called (correctly I might add) the “Three Angels Message”.

Let us look at the “first Angel” because this is where the issue is joined. The first Angel has the “gospel” and it was his job to proclaim that “gospel” to those who live on the earth.

Just what is that “gospel”? Paul always stated that the “gospel” was Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. In the Book of Romans Paul lays the most comprehensive treatise on the “Gospel” ever written. In that Book of Romans Paul states that it is God and God alone who through Jesus Christ’s life and death accomplished the Salvation for humans apart from anything humans could do or actually do. Thus, the “Gospel” is about God and Jesus Christ and what they do, not what humans do!

This is the “gospel” of the First Angel here in Revelation. Because of the “Gospel” the First Angel states that humans are thus commanded to do the following:

1. Fear God and give Him glory.

2. Worship the Creator.

The First Angel tells us why we humans are to Fear God and give Him Glory. That reason is because that God will judge you as to whether you have indeed “Feared Him and given Him Glory”!

I know, I know, it says the “hour” of his judgment has come. Well, exactly what “hour” is that? The First Angel does not give us a specific “hour” or time. The only two possible conclusion we can come to:

1.That each human as they come on to the earth will be judged about what they do during their lifetime.

2.That this passage is not talking about some investigation of the “righteous” near the end of time. The end of time is not even mentioned. An investigation is not mentioned nor is it inferred in any way, shape, or form!

Sorry, once again no “Investigative Judgment” here.

[miz3]

Richard Holbrook,

Third Bible Study:

The text Revelation 22:12 has been given as demonstrating that there is an "Investigative Judgment". Here is the text;

"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Revelation 22:12-13.

It is obvious that this text neither states that such and "investigative judgment" takes place nor is nary an inference of any kind, shape, or form in this text. It merely states the fact that God brings rewards with Him when He comes. It also states that He is coming "soon".

The question of "soon" is for another day.

Suffice it to say, there is no "Investigative Judgment" here.

[miz3]

Richard Holbrook,

Fourth Bible Study:

This time we analyze the parable to the "Wedding Banquet" as found in Matthew chapter 22.

"Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Matthew 22:1-14

It is clear that the King sent invitations "first" to those who were His chosen people. Amazingly these "chosen" people refused to come to the Banquet. Naturally the King was angry. He was so angry that He decided to invite those who were clearly not in the "saved" or "favored" class. Naturally the King wanted everything to look good and to be good so He outfitted all guests with "wedding clothes".

When the came into the Banquet he noticed a person not wearing the "wedding garment". Notice particularly that the King did not come to "investigate" or to "check out who was and was not dressed". That is not what the passage says. It says He came in to "see" the guests. He assumed that everything was in order and He wanted to properly greet those who came. There was no "investigation" or "checking", the King came in to "see" and "greet" His guests.

The poor person who was not wearing the "wedding garment" stuck out like a "sore thumb"! It was obvious that he had disrespected and REJECTED the King and His plans. No investigation needed. It was OBVIOUS!

Three things pop out here:

1. The Kings "chosen" people, the people of God, REJECTED Him and His invitation. In Christ's day that would have been the Jewish Nation. Those listening to Christ tell the story knew that He was talking about them. Christ was not talking about some "group" down in the history of time. If it were our time these would be the SDA. However the parable is not referring to our time at all.

2. Those that finally came were NOT the "chosen people of God" but were instead the unchosen. In Christ's day that would have been the Gentiles. If were to apply to today, which it is not, that would be those who were not SDA.

3. The man seen to not be wearing the wedding garment then would not have been a Jew or if in our day would not have been and SDA. I thought the "Investigative Judgment" was about God's People? Regardless this parable is not a look down in time to our day but it was for the Jews of their day. The parable does not even "infer" in slightest way that it applies to our day or the SDA Church.

Sorry, no "Investigative Judgment" here either.

[miz3]

To all,

I gave you a website that seems to hold some info in regard to Ellen White and the influence others had on her work.

I don't know whether the website agrees with Des Ford or not. Regardless whether it does or not it does have some info that I thought others would like to view and decide whether that info is credible or not.

Apparently this suggestion spiraled into a discussion on the "Investigative Judgment". There is another Subject discussion here on Theology Townhall that is dealing with the "Investigative Judgment". I have made copies of what have written here on that subject and put them over on that part of the Theology Townhall.

Here is not the place for that subject. We are intruding on Gail's question and space. I apologize to Gail for my part in ruining her subject question. Hopefully we can get back her marvelous question.

I wish that others would check out the website I earlier offered to see if its documentation has any credibility rather than dismiss it out of hand because you are afraid it is a "Des Ford" entity or sympathizer.

What are SDA afraid of? They are so paranoid! Are SDA so "clean and pristine" that like the Jews of Christ's day they refuse to accept that they have any negative history, negative beliefs, or any negative character on up to today?

[ClubV12]

"What are SDA afraid of? They are so paranoid!"

Afraid? Paranoid? Hardly! Try smart, as in "not stupid". I DID check out the web site link you posted, it is a "junk" web site, I won't waste any more time there and will highly recommend no one else waste anytime there either. It is filled with error cleverly disquised as truth. It even seems to support Ellen White (as do many here, but it quickly becomes apparent they deny the power thereof)! It presents a very powerful lie.

"I don't know whether the website agrees with Des Ford or not."

It does indeed support Desmond Ford, a former SDA, kicked out of the church for his radical views on the Investigative Judgement and his false claims concerning the heavenly sanctuary. He is an incredibly dangerous man, incredibly smart, some say a photogenic memory. He deceived about a 100 SDA pastors, who also left the church as a result of supporting his theories.

MIZ3 is following the SAME PATH toward distruction.

DO NOT BE DECEIVED by these false theories presented with a mixture of truth and error. Skillfully woven so that if it were possible even the very elect would be fooled.

[miz3]

To all,

We do know that Willie's son left the Ellen White estate in disgrace because he was not honest about his care of his grandmothers estate!

This was a very embarrassing event for him and the SDA Church!

[miz3]

Everyone,

Of course we can say with certainty that there are no "Gehazis" in the Ellen White closet?

If this is true, why is Gail raising the question?

I would like to know the answers to these questions if there are any!

[Gordon1]

No one "sent" her Australia. She went to Australia of her own free will. She could have refused to go. She was asked to go. She wasn't told to go. It turned out that it was a blessing both to Ellen White and to the church that Ellen White went.

No clear light to come to Australia - 2SM 239:2

"At times before leaving America I thought that the Lord did not require me to go to a country so far away, at my age and when I was prostrated by overwork. But I followed the voice of the {General} Conference, as I have ever tried to do at times when I had no clear light myself. I came to Australia, and found the believers here in a condition where they must have help."

Christ was officially rejected in 1888. The Whites were despised long ere this, causing the premature death of James. EGW was shunned. She could have refused to go, but submitted to the GC direction. In truth they wanted rid of her - too straight. It's doubtful this was God's Plan A for EGW, but He used her and she was blessed, as was Australia.

Imagine what could have been done for the world if most Adventists of the era were obedient to the message?

[miz3]

To all,

"Christ was officially rejected in 1888. The Whites were despised long ere this, causing the premature death of James. EGW was shunned. She could have refused to go, but submitted to the GC direction. In truth they wanted rid of her - too straight. It's doubtful this was God's Plan A for EGW, but He used her and she was blessed, as was Australia."

I agree!

Again I ask?

No Gehazis in Ellen White's closet?

Naturally the SDA history has always been to reverence the "Spirit of Prophecy"? Hmmm!

No one ever tried to manipulate the "Testimonies", never? Hmmm!

Gail is only raising the question even though there is no and has never been any evidence for us to even think in the least little scintilla that such would ever be the case? Hmmm!

[miz3]

This is just an effort in futility? Hmmm!

[Gordon1]

Yes, the books have been changed, manipulated. Possibly excepting earlier works.

Careful readers will notice a problem. Compilations offer more opportunity for inserted suggestions or misleading context.

Problems seem to arise after the death of James White (1881). The five man 'revision' committee was formed in 1883. Perhaps things were ok up until 1884 when the S.O.P. vol. IV was published. It may have escaped.

[miz3]

Very, very interesting Gordon1!

My questions still remain unanswered by others who do not see as you do.

[Gordon1]

At the following website there is a publication entitled "Reviving the Original Spirit of Prophecy Writings". The author R. Lee outlines some of the changes, which can be read in PDF format.

http://www.testimonypress.org/index.php?p=1_6_Publications

[miz3]

Thank you Gordon1. I don't have time to read it now but I will tomorrow.

It does sound like an interesting read.

I never commit to endorsements until I am sure for myself of its credibility. I will let you know what I think when I have finished studying it.

Thanks again. I see this as maybe very helpful.

[Gordon1]

It's not a quick read - check the Table of Contents.

But it gives examples of changes, and others have pointed out more.

It's a major study topic, but Bible study is a better use of time.

[miz3]

Gordon1 and all others,

I looked at the website today and read some 73 pages of the 104 pages and it was extremely enlightening.

It appears that the "brethren" and others tampered wholesale especially after James White's death with the "Spirit of Prophecy".

These "brethren" included "Willie White" who appears to "love" the church more than he loved God and God's laws!

What a mess! It is impossible to undo all the evil that has been done. With so many "tampered" writings profusely blanketed all over the world.

We (SDA) have only begun to reap the whirlwind on this scandalous tampering with God's Word!

Amazing! Just Amazing!

To think there are innocent ones on this website vociferously using what they believe are Ellen White's words to support knowledge that never entered her mind.

Thank you Gordon1 for directing us to the Truth! I do not rejoice because the whole business makes me beyond words angry and also beyond words sad. Angry at those who for their own selfish means and greed for power perpetrated this scam. Sadness for the innocent who believe they are receiving God's Light when all the time they are ingesting the work of evil men and evil women.

It must have broken Ellen White's heart to see this happen to her work for God!

[Guest]

It's a major study topic, but Bible study is a better use of time.

I can certainly agree with that...

[Guest]

I looked at the website today and read some 73 pages of the 104 pages and it was extremely enlightening.

I can see how someone who has already rejected EGW would think they have really found something here.

[Gordon1]

It must have broken Ellen White's heart to see this happen to her work for God!

Yes Miz, and her early misfortunes may have prepared her for these heartbreaks. I'm sure they all increased her dependence upon God.

The 'Reviving' document only glimpses at the changes. Years ago I questioned some EGW works which seemed out of harmony with her message, and now we see there was a schedule, pattern and reason for the changes. It all makes sense. And it's probably the root of many plagiarism charges too. (Let's remember, the Church rejected Christ in 1888. This was open rebellion, which began earlier and still awaits repentance. Many overlook the divine judgment which razed both the Battle Creek Sanitarium and the Review & Herald publishing house with fire in 1902.)

Further liberties were taken to appease the evangelicals Donald Barnhouse & Walter Martin in the 1950s (see M.L. Andreasen's Letters to the Churches, and With Cloak & Dagger by H.H. Meyers - Hartland Publcations.)

The bottom line: These are not baseless accusations. Anyone can make the comparisons. Hermann Hoehn (d. 1999) of Grand Forks B.C. exposed many changes in his newsletters of the day. He also republished the S.O.P. Vol. IV (1884 Great Controversy) in paperback which is still available.

If we are willing students of the Bible, God will give us the wisdom of discernment in all these matters.