Did Willie White Influence his mother?

[John317]

If you take away the investigative judgment, you no longer have a reason to be an SDA. Or for there to be an SDA church. You can find the rest of the doctrines in other churches. The sanctuary doctrine, or the IJ, is the only doctrine that is unique to adventism, and separates us from the rest of the world, doctrinally.

It is THE central pillar that, if taken away, destroys adventism. That is why it is constantly being attacked. Satan has tried to cloud men's minds concerning this from the very outset, and to a large degree has been successful.

That is why, whenever I see someone attacking this central pillar of our faith, I know that they cannot be trusted. No matter how much they may praise Ellen White.

Exactly right, Richard.

[Gail]

I recently read a quote to the effect also that EGW predicted that the sanctuary doctrine would come again into prominence in the time soon before Jesus comes.

I am encountering books and also heard a sermon lately just on how the sanctuary works into the (everlasting) gospel. In spite of the number of those who don't accept it IS being revived AND in a powerful, positive way.

[John317]

John317,

Hebrews chapter 10 states that Jesus Christ went into the Most Holy Place long before 1844.

Second, does it take 167 years to cleanse the Temple?

SDAs don't argue against the view that Christ went into the Most Holy Place before 1844.

The question is, why did Christ go into the Most Holy Place shortly after He ascended to heaven?

For what purpose did Christ go into the Most Holy Place? What is to do what Moses did in consecrating/inaugurating the sanctuary? (See Ex. 30: 22-30; 40: 1-16; Lev. 8: 10-13; Numbers 7: 1-88.)

Or was it to fulfill the antitypical Day of Atonement?

Originally Posted By: miz3

Second, does it take 167 years to cleanse the Temple?

No. It could have been finished long ago. We're not waiting on time for the sanctuary to be cleansed. We're waiting for the church to be ready for Christ to return.

I'm surprised you ask this kind of question.

The following verses give some indication of what I'm talking about:

Rev. 19:7

Let us rejoice and exult

and give him the glory,

for the marriage of the Lamb has come,

and his Bride has made herself ready;

NOTE: God's people have made themselves ready. This has not been done yet.

Rev. 14:14-15

Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. [15] And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe."

NOTE: Christ won't come until the people of the earth-- both good and evil-- are "fully ripe," i.e., ready for Him to come.

Rev. 7:3

saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."

NOTE: Christ won't come until God's people are "sealed."

Daniel 12:10

Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.

NOTE: Just before Christ comes, there will be a special time of purification of God's people. However, only God's people will understand; the wicked will not understand. It will be foolishness to them.

Anyone who accepts Ellen G. White as God's messenger, see GC 425.

[miz3]

OK, lets see if I got this right?

1. Jesus Christ has gone into the Most Holy Place before 1844 for reasons other than the Investigative Judgment.

2. Jesus Christ went into the Most Holy Place in 1844 for the sole purpose of inaugurating the Investigative Judgment.

3. The Investigative Judgment was put on hold because the people who were supposed be God's People were not ready.

4. The people who were supposed to be God's People are at present still not ready.

5. We don't know when the people who are supposed to be God's people will be ready.

Do I have it correct now?

[Guest]

Not even close....

[John317]

OK, lets see if I got this right?

1. Jesus Christ has gone into the Most Holy Place before 1844 for reasons other than the Investigative Judgment.

The heavenly sanctuary was consecrated or inaugurated soon after Christ ascended to heaven. Heb. 6: 19, 20. Rev. 4 &5.

See also See Ex. 30: 22-30; 40: 1-16; Lev. 8: 10-13; Numbers 7: 1-88.

[John317]

OK, lets see if I got this right?

2. Jesus Christ went into the Most Holy Place in 1844 for the sole purpose of inaugurating the Investigative Judgment.

No, not "inaugurating." The Bible knows of no such thing as "inaugurating the Investigative Judgment."

Where did you get this idea?

Are you sure you've studied the topic before? The way you talk against it, one would think you'd studied it a lot and knew it well. But now you're showing that the reason you reject it is that you don't understand it.

[John317]

OK, lets see if I got this right?

3. The Investigative Judgment was put on hold because the people who were supposed be God's People were not ready.

The Investigative Judgment could have been finished long ago. God is not waiting for the books to be completed.

[John317]

OK, lets see if I got this right?

4. The people who were supposed to be God's People are at present still not ready.

True. God's church is not ready for Christ's return.

[John317]

OK, lets see if I got this right?

5. We don't know when the people who are supposed to be God's people will be ready.

No, we don't but God does.

[John317]

....Third, I can see the Day of Atonement to Cleanse the Earthly Temple. Are you saying that SIN resides in the Heavenly Temple thus polluting Heaven itself and Jesus Christ is cleaning this mess up?

The sins of God's professed people pollute the sanctuary of God in the sense that they profane God's character and reputation before the onlooking universe. The sins of people who profess to belong to God are recorded in the books in heaven. Compare Daniel 7: 10.

That there is a need to cleanse the holy places in heaven is clearly stated in Hebrews 9: 23--

Hebrews 9:23

Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified [cleansed] with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

[John317]

Is the SDA Church claiming the same "exemption"? Either Hebrews chapter 10 is (the word Most Holy Place is there) correct, or it is wrong, or is it "Trumped" by something else? Which is it?

I hope you study more and don't reject something that you don't yet understand.

Are you a member of the SDA church? I think I asked you this before, but I haven't see your answer. I'm trying to understand your thinking.

You say some things that indicate you believe in Ellen White as prophet of God, yet you say other things that clearly show you don't.

[John317]

miz3, indeed you have brought up questions that thousands of others, including me, have in the past.

It's kind of like Pilate asking Jesus a question about truth and then not staying around long enough to listen to an answer. When that happens, one naturally wonders how sincere the question is. And this is especially so when the question is asked many times after the answer has been given many times.

When there is so much truth available, why would someone spend their time spreading rumors and gossip about Willie White and Kellogg?

[miz3]

All right let me try again,

1. Has Jesus ever been in the Most Holy Place before 1844?

[miz3]

Which is it?

Richard Holbrook says I'm not even close.

Yet:

John317 says in his posts that I am at least somewhat close.

"Inaugurate" means to "begin" or "to start". So what I mean is "the start of the Investigative Judgment".

So which is it? Can you guys get your stories straight as to how well I did in regard to my five statements so I can finally know just what you all REALLY BELIEVE in regard to this Doctrine. I have to ask because I find SDA are often all over the place with their Doctrines.

[John317]

...Fourth, concerning your answer to my inquiry on Ellen White's 1898 statement that Jesus is in the Holy Place, does Jesus Christ shuttle back and forth between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place in order to do His work as both "intersessor" and "Cleanser of the Sanctuary" and "Investigator" during this 167 year investigation?

Jesus Christ does both the work of intersessor and blotting out of sins during this time. Prior to 1844, Jesus did only the work of intersessor; that is, the work that was typified by the daily sacrifices.

Quote:

Fifth, has Jesus Christ been confined to the Heavenly Sanctuary since his ascension?

It's not a matter of being "confined." The heavenly sanctuary is huge and has enough room for countless beings.

Daniel 7:10

A stream of fire issued

and came out from before him;

a thousand thousands served him,

and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;

the court sat in judgment,

and the books were opened.

The way you talk, one would think you were either non-SDA or that you hadn't studied either the Bible or Ellen White's writings on the subject of the sanctuary.

[miz3]

Which is it?

Richard Holbrook says I'm not even close.

Yet:

John317 says in his posts that I am at least somewhat close.

"Inaugurate" means to "begin" or "to start". So what I mean is "the start of the Investigative Judgment".

So which is it? Can you guys get your stories straight as to how well I did in regard to my five statements so I can finally know just what you all REALLY BELIEVE in regard to this Doctrine. I have to ask because I find SDA are often all over the place with their Doctrines.

[John317]

"Inaugurate" means to "begin" or "to start". So what I mean is "the start of the Investigative Judgment".

Dictionary definition:

Inauguration:

1.The act or process of formally admitting a person to membership or office: inaugural, induction, initiation, installation, instatement, investiture. See accept/reject.

2.The act or process of bringing or being brought into existence: beginning, commencement, inception, incipience, incipiency, initiation, launch, leadoff, opening, origination, start. Informal kickoff. See start/end.

It is customary to speak of inaugurating or consecrating the sanctuary, but not of inaugurating the Investigative Judgment.

In relation to the work in the sanctuary, "inauguration" is a formal ceremony, such as described in Ex. 30: 22-30; 40: 1-16.

[John317]

... I find SDA are often all over the place with their Doctrines.

Are you SDA? If not, what church if any are you associated with or where do you worship and fellowship?

What church is closest to your beliefs?

[John317]

Which is it?

Richard Holbrook says I'm not even close.

Yet:

John317 says in his posts that I am at least somewhat close.

So which is it?

You didn't too well; certainly not what I expected from someone who apparently has decided to reject the Invetigative Judgment. I would think you'd want to understand something before you reject it, especially when it's taught as a central belief of the woman you say you are out to defend against people who are doing terrible things to her.

[miz3]

John317,

Look at #2 of your definition of "inaugurate". It says what I am saying it means. So my use of the word in my set of questions was indeed correct!

[miz3]

OK, let's do this step by step.

1. Jesus Christ has gone into the Most Holy Place before 1844 for reasons other than the Investigative Judgment.

Is this true or is this false?

Explain your answer.

[John317]

All right let me try again,

1. Has Jesus ever been in the Most Holy Place before 1844?

Not for the purpose of judgment, no. He certainly went in to the Most Holy Place at the time that the heavenly sanctuary was inaugurated, or consecrated. This took place shortly after His ascension to heaven.

Do you believe in a literal sanctuary, or temple, in heaven?

And do you believe Christ is our High Priest in that temple?

Here is the church's position on the High Priestly work of Christ, a position I completely affirm:

Quote:

24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

[miz3]

You didn't say whether I was right or wrong.

1. Jesus was in the Most Holy Place before 1844. We are not at this point specifying why He was there. We are only establishing that Jesus Christ was in the Most Holy Place before 1844 the reason at this point is not yet relevant.

Is this correct or not correct?

Don't try and get ahead by anticipating any further possible answers or questions.

Either number one in this post is correct or incorrect!

Which is it?

[John317]

John317,

Look at #2 of your definition of "inaugurate". It says what I am saying it means. So my use of the word in my set of questions was indeed correct!

If you mean "begin" the Investigative Judgment, then that is fine, but when people speak of the Investigative Judgment, it's highly unusual to use "inaugurate" in place of "begin." Inauguration is usually connected to a formal ceremony and the act of inducting into office, etc. That's why I said earlier that there is no "Inauguration" related to the Investigative Judgment. It's the language used in theology texts describing the events in relation to both the earthly and the heavenly sanctuary.

As you can see in the SDA Fundamental Beliefs, the word "inauguration" is used to convey the concept of Christ's consecraion of the heavenly sanctuary soon after his ascension to heaven.

INAUGURATING, ppr. Inducting into office with solemnities.

INAUGURATION, n. The act of inducting into office with solemnity; investiture with office by appropriate ceremonies. definition that is used in this connection