Did Willie White Influence his mother?

[Gordon1]

Evangelism in a Can by the late Ed White (d. 2009)

http://ed-white.us/audio/can/1-evangelism_in_can.mp3

http://ed-white.us/audio/can/2-evangelism_in_can.mp3

http://ed-white.us/audio/can/3-evangelism_in_can.mp3

http://ed-white.us/audio/can/4-evangelism_in_can.mp3

http://ed-white.us/audio/can/5-evangelism_in_can.mp3

[miz3]

To all,

Right on! Gordon1!

Ellen White is not the problem. As I have stated in a number of topics, Ellen White has been treated in such a shabby way throughout much of her Ministry. Without her there would be no SDA Church.

If she is indeed a Prophet that we say she is then why can't she be the originator of a Doctrine and even the lone writer to stipulate that Doctrine. Daniel and Revelation hold unique views and we don't show embarrassment that they exist. (That is in spite of Dr. Rich and his selective Authorities).

[ClubV12]

Ellen White was a firm believer in "unity". I get the distinct impression that this is really fundamental to the church, it's a "must have" condition that all but trumps everything else. One reason she went was because the brethren asked her to, to deny them would have been open opposition, disharmony, a lack of unity. Leaving her with a very difficult choice on which she did not have clear light. If you dare to enter into "disharmony" with the brethren you really need some clear light before taking that step!

Perhaps the brethren were mistaken, perhaps. God often gives us what we ask for, what we desire, what WE want above all else. So it could be said, the GC got what they asked God for. It's a reasonable question though, was that God's "A" plan or the "B" plan?

In the spirit of Unity, I feel obliged to go with plan "A", as I have no clear light on whether or not plan "B" applies to this situation.

[miz3]

To me it is unconscionable that SDA "Brethren" including those in the White family, her inner circle, and others would be bold enough to CHANGE even a single word or punctuation mark of what God gave to Ellen White.

You should have picked up by now that I am jealous for Ellen White because God did use her as His Servant.

She is not our Servant to be shaped, changed, overruled, sent, ordered, inferred, conceptualized, and/or anything else I may have missed.

She belongs to God, who alone defines her and defines everything about her. We just listen and learn from God what He is saying to us through His Servants. Yes, that includes Ellen White.

Yet, I repeat, many evil humans have done just what I stated they did to this woman and her work!!!!!!

Sorry I just had to !!!!!! about this.

God is indeed taking notes and we today are just as accountable as those of the past who tamper with God's chosen servants (Prophets, Apostles, etc.), and will pay a price in suffering that cannot be imagined.

So let's answer the questions and test our beliefs to see if they hold up. Let us do it honestly and truthfully just as some of our Spiritual Ancestors have done before us.

[John317]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White1898

“Christ might commission the angels of

heaven to pour out the vials of His wrath on

our world, to destroy those who are filled with

hatred of God. He might wipe this dark spot

from His universe. But He does not do this.

He is today standing at the altar of

incense, presenting before God the prayers

of those who desire His help. {DA 568.4}

This was written I believe around 1898 some 54 years after 1844 when according to Ellen White and the SDA Church Jesus Christ had already entered the "MOST HOLY PLACE".

As the Desire Ages quote above states Jesus Christ was still in the "Holy Place" ministering.

HOW CAN THIS BE?

Hebrews 9:3-4

Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place, [4] having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron's staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.

Notice where the writer of Hebrews places the altar of incense.

Keep several things in mind:

1) The altar of incense symbolizes the mediation of Christ. That is, it represents Christ's righteousness.

2) As Heb. 9: 3-4 shows, the altar of incense is closely associated with the Most Holy Place and the ark of covenant. In the earthly sanctuary, the incense was used in close conenction with the work done in the Most Holy Place. In fact, it was so closely connected with the Most Holy Place that the writer of Hebrews places it behind the second curtain rather than in front it.

3) The context of DA 568: 4 is that instead of commanding the angels to pour out the vials of God's wrath on a wicked world, Christ is ministering before the Father, prsenting to Him the prayers of guilty sinners who are asking for His help. The incense symbolizes Christ's righteousness which alone makes our prayers acceptable to God.

4) Does this mean that Christ must stand outside the Most holy Place all these many years while officiating as our Great High Priest? Certainly not. The context shows that Ellen White's purpose is not to tell us Christ's exact location with respect to the heavenly sanctuary but rather to explain the work that Christ is doing in our behalf. What work is that? He is interceding for us rather than condemning us.

Since, therefore, the altar of incense symbolized Christ's work of intercession, the principle of biblical typology requires the association of His intercessory work with the golden altar. The altar itself, of course, represents Christ, and as such it seems unlikely that Christ needs literally to stand by something that symbolizes Himself in order to present our prayers to the Father.

[John317]

If she is indeed a Prophet that we say she is then why can't she be the originator of a Doctrine and even the lone writer to stipulate that Doctrine.

Are you kidding?

There's a very good reason. We need to keep in mind that she even says herself that all doctrine must be supported by Holy Scripture.

Ellen White can certainly be the originator of some ideas, details and explanations of doctrines, but there is a very important reason that she cannot be the originator of a doctrine.

That reason is to protect the people of God from false doctrine and false prophets. If a true prophet could come along and introduce new doctrines, it would mean that there would be no sure way to test the doctrines or the prophet in order to know whether he is false or true. It would simply be dependent on the word of the person claiming to be the "prophet." Sounds like a situation Satan would love to find in the church. It would serve his purposes well.

[John317]

To me it is unconscionable that SDA "Brethren" including those in the White family, her inner circle, and others would be bold enough to CHANGE even a single word or punctuation mark of what God gave to Ellen White.

....Yet, I repeat, many evil humans have done just what I stated they did to this woman and her work!!!!!!

What are you saying they did?

If you are claiming it was wrong of them to change a single word or puncatuation mark of what she wrote, that is false. Ellen White herself paid them to make changes in grammar, punctuation, spelling, and sentence structure.

Contrary to what some have claimed, God did not "dictate" her books and articles.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: miz3

First, I would say that I have not rejected Ellen White!

Nonsense! You rejected what she had to say about the investigative judgment, and said there isn't one. Now that you have found this, you'll say: "Oh, that was changed, and put there by someone else. When the fact is, you had already rejected it.

I am not wrong. People who reject the SoP, are not all that hard to spot.

I agree, Richard.

That is like Dr. Kellogg saying he supported Ellen White while he went around doing just the opposite. ellen Whtie wrote about what Dr. Kellogg was doing, so I am not simply make an accusation against Kellogg. God showed Mrs. White what was going on.

Lucifer did the same thing in heaven with respect to Christ. He would tell the angels that he loved Christ and was only trying to protect him, while in actuallity Lucifer hated Christ and wanted to destroy Him.

[miz3]

John317,

Hebrews chapter 10 states that Jesus Christ went into the Most Holy Place long before 1844.

Second, does it take 167 years to cleanse the Temple?

Third, I can see the Day of Atonement to Cleanse the Earthly Temple. Are you saying that SIN resides in the Heavenly Temple thus polluting Heaven itself and Jesus Christ is cleaning this mess up?

Fourth, concerning your answer to my inquiry on Ellen White's 1898 statement that Jesus is in the Holy Place, does Jesus Christ shuttle back and forth between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place in order to do His work as both "intersessor" and "Cleanser of the Sanctuary" and "Investigator" during this 167 year investigation?

Fifth, has Jesus Christ been confined to the Heavenly Sanctuary since his ascension?

Thanks for answering my questions.

[skyblue888]

John317,

Hebrews chapter 10 states that Jesus Christ went into the Most Holy Place long before 1844.

Second, does it take 167 years to cleanse the Temple?

Third, I can see the Day of Atonement to Cleanse the Earthly Temple. Are you saying that SIN resides in the Heavenly Temple thus polluting Heaven itself and Jesus Christ is cleaning this mess up?

Fourth, concerning your answer to my inquiry on Ellen White's 1898 statement that Jesus is in the Holy Place, does Jesus Christ shuttle back and forth between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place in order to do His work as both "intersessor" and "Cleanser of the Sanctuary" and "Investigator" during this 167 year investigation?

Fifth, has Jesus Christ been confined to the Heavenly Sanctuary since his ascension?

Thanks for answering my questions.

miz3, you are echoing Ford's views here. The Advent Movement hinges upon whether Jesus passed from the holy to the most holy place on Oct.22, 1844 to begin the work of investigative judgment. This is the foundation and the central pillar of the Advent Movement and no one can remove it.

When I was a theo boy I used to hear the same debates, the same arguments. Nothing new under the sun.

Jesus does not shuffle back and forth between the holy place and the most holy place and as to whether the sanctuary in heaven needs cleansing, yes it does and this is clearly taught in the book of Hebrews.

You know as well as I do that this cleansing has been delayed because of unbelief on the part of the advent people. The final atonement should have taken place shortly after 1844.

sky

[miz3]

I was not trying to claim something new!

[miz3]

To all,

Hebrews chapter 10 states that Jesus Christ went into the Most Holy Place long before 1844. Is or is this not true? After all it specifically states that Jesus Christ went into the Most Holy Place before us. It does not matter who espouses something. What matters is, is it true? The words of the text are unmistakable. It does not matter what the SDA Church claims, the Jews claimed many things that were wrong and they thought that because they were God's "chosen people" that God had to smile on them regardless what they believed or did. Is the SDA Church claiming the same "exemption"? Either Hebrews chapter 10 is (the word Most Holy Place is there) correct, or it is wrong, or is it "Trumped" by something else? Which is it?

Calling me "Des Ford" a name that means "shame" does not change the Truth of the TEXT or the pointedness of the questions!

Besides I thought the SDA Church's FOUNDATION was Jesus Christ NOT THE SANCTUARY DOCTRINE OR THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT! Was I wrong?

Second, does it take 167 years to cleanse the Temple?

Third, I can see the Day of Atonement to Cleanse the Earthly Temple. Are you saying that SIN resides in the Heavenly Temple thus polluting Heaven itself and Jesus Christ is cleaning this mess up?

Fourth, concerning your answer to my inquiry on Ellen White's 1898 statement that Jesus is in the Holy Place, does Jesus Christ shuttle back and forth between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place in order to do His work as both "intersessor" and "Cleanser of the Sanctuary" and "Investigator" during this 167 year investigation?

Fifth, has Jesus Christ been confined to the Heavenly Sanctuary since his ascension?

Thanks for answering my questions.

[skyblue888]

Jesus, at His ascension, entered the holy place of the sanctuary in Heaven. He ascended up on High to begin the work of atonement for our transgressions, pleading the merits of His shed blood before the Father in behalf of sinners but especially for those who desire His help. He did not enter the Holiest of all until His work in the holy place was finished. It could have been finished shortly after but the mystery of iniquity was already at work in the Early Church and this mystery of iniquity led to thirteen centuries of spiritual darkness until the rise of the Advent Movement. Again because of unbelief on the part of the advent people (G.C.457,458) that work had to be delayed.

In the type, the High Priest entered the most holy place, not at the beginning but at the end of the year to cleanse the sanctuary.

"For there was a tabernacle made; the first, in which was the lampstand, and the table, and the showbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle, which is called the Holiest of all." Heb.9:2,3.

"But into the the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people." Heb.9:7.

"Which was a figure for the time then present..."

"But Christ being come an High Priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building, neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Heb.9:9,11,12.

So He entered the holy place of the sanctuary in Heaven at His ascension to begin the work of atonement.

"It was, therefore, necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." Heb.9:23.

This last verse shows beyond any shadow of doubt that the heavenly sanctuary needs cleansing and this is what the prophet Daniel had in mind when he wrote: "Unto two thousand and three hundred days and then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Daniel 8:14.

This brings us to Oct.22, 1844 when the work of investigative judgment began and would have been followed by the cleansing of the sanctuary in Heaven if the people of God had labored unitedly in 1844 and had received the third angel's message and proclaimed it in the power of the Holy Spirit and the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts. A flood of light would be been shed upon the world and years ago the inhabitants of the earth would have been warned, the closing work completed, and Christ would have come for the redemption of His people. See G.C.457,458.

sky

[miz3]

Thank you Sky,

I see all that. You have laid it out pretty good. I do have a question.

If in 1844 Jesus Christ left the Holy Place to enter the Most Holy Place why does Ellen White make the Statement she does in 1898 which puts Jesus back in the Holy Place.

All right, I guess I have more than "one" question.

If Jesus Christ DIDN'T ENTER THE MOST HOLY PLACE until 1844, then why does Hebrews chapter 10 state that Jesus Christ entered the Most Holy Place back then and that we (humans) are to follow Jesus Christ into the Most Holy Place where God the Father is.

I am puzzled because there seems to be a conflict here? How do we resolve this conflict?

[Dr. Rich]

miz3, indeed you have brought up questions that thousands of others, including me, have in the past.

Here is one story that many don't know about Willie and his mom. Willie had a girl friend who was also the girlfriend of the Kelloge boy. Ellen said she had a vision that he went to Loma Linda so that the girl would be free for Willie. And of course this is what happened. Did here vision influence Kellog or not? Who knows?

[miz3]

Dr. Rich,

It is not intention to plow new ground.

I just want answers because I see so many contradictory statements that don't seem to line up with the stated facts.

[Dr. Rich]

miz3, yes, I understand and agree.

[skyblue888]

Thank you Sky,

I see all that. You have laid it out pretty good. I do have a question.

If in 1844 Jesus Christ left the Holy Place to enter the Most Holy Place why does Ellen White make the Statement she does in 1898 which puts Jesus back in the Holy Place.

All right, I guess I have more than "one" question.

If Jesus Christ DIDN'T ENTER THE MOST HOLY PLACE until 1844, then why does Hebrews chapter 10 state that Jesus Christ entered the Most Holy Place back then and that we (humans) are to follow Jesus Christ into the Most Holy Place where God the Father is.

I am puzzled because there seems to be a conflict here? How do we resolve this conflict?

Rob, there is no conflict if we understand the pattern for type must meet antitype. I know all about the translations making it appear that Jesus entered the Holiest of all at His ascension but that cannot be simply because type must meet antitype. The fact that Jesus went from the holy to the Holiest of all in 1844 did not change anything as far as Him pleading the merits of His shed blood.

sky

[skyblue888]

miz3, indeed you have brought up questions that thousands of others, including me, have in the past.

Here is one story that many don't know about Willie and his mom. Willie had a girl friend who was also the girlfriend of the Kelloge boy. Ellen said she had a vision that he went to Loma Linda so that the girl would be free for Willie. And of course this is what happened. Did here vision influence Kellog or not? Who knows?

Where does that come from brother Rich?

sky :)

[Dr. Rich]

Many years ago when I was attempting to read everything she wrote I came upon this and thought it was interesting. Right now I can't tell you where it is and perhaps others can find it. I will do some searching when I have more time.

[miz3]

Dr. Rich,

I never heard that about Willie either.

We have to careful. Long ago I made the huge mistake of stating something I had heard from someone else. When asked for a credible source and not just what someone asserted I was unable to find the documentation that, that assertion was true. In fact exhaustive research revealed that the whole thing was made up merely to discredit the person so accused.

It was a painful and embarrassing experience. I vowed never to do that again. I have tried to live up to that vow.

If its just rumor don't touch it! Its Ok to ask if such and such is true when you don't know but even then we must be careful to be credible and honest and not just be wild destructive instruments of evil.

[Dr. Rich]

miz3, it was not a rumor it was something I read a long time ago and at the time thought it strange. I have not thought about it since until this thread caused me to remember it. I was reading about the conflict between Willie and the Kellogg boy over a girl they both liked. Willie told him mom about it and suddenly had a dream or vision (somthing like that) and in it she saw the Kellogg boy going to Loma Linda to be a doctor. And of course that is what happened. But it also was convenient for Willie that he didn't have any threat from the Kellogg boy anymore.

I suppose anyone can look this up and check it out for themselves. I am not saying that Willie influenced his mom--or not. What happened is history and now we have a hill on I-10 in California called "Kellogg Hill".

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Finally he had his credentials taken away from him. I understand that they gave them back to him on his death bed.

After a life of faithful denominational service, he was shunned. I believe he lost his pension, at least temporarily, but I've forgotten the sad details.

It's an important lesson for those who align themselves with any organization.

I think he died with a broken heart. Heaven marked it all.

He died here in North Carolina....

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: miz3

John317,

Hebrews chapter 10 states that Jesus Christ went into the Most Holy Place long before 1844.

Second, does it take 167 years to cleanse the Temple?

Third, I can see the Day of Atonement to Cleanse the Earthly Temple. Are you saying that SIN resides in the Heavenly Temple thus polluting Heaven itself and Jesus Christ is cleaning this mess up?

Fourth, concerning your answer to my inquiry on Ellen White's 1898 statement that Jesus is in the Holy Place, does Jesus Christ shuttle back and forth between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place in order to do His work as both "intersessor" and "Cleanser of the Sanctuary" and "Investigator" during this 167 year investigation?

Fifth, has Jesus Christ been confined to the Heavenly Sanctuary since his ascension?

Thanks for answering my questions.

miz3, you are echoing Ford's views here. The Advent Movement hinges upon whether Jesus passed from the holy to the most holy place on Oct.22, 1844 to begin the work of investigative judgment. This is the foundation and the central pillar of the Advent Movement and no one can remove it.

When I was a theo boy I used to hear the same debates, the same arguments. Nothing new under the sun.

Jesus does not shuffle back and forth between the holy place and the most holy place and as to whether the sanctuary in heaven needs cleansing, yes it does and this is clearly taught in the book of Hebrews.

You know as well as I do that this cleansing has been delayed because of unbelief on the part of the advent people. The final atonement should have taken place shortly after 1844.

sky

Amen!!!

If you take away the investigative judgment, you no longer have a reason to be an SDA. Or for there to be an SDA church. You can find the rest of the doctrines in other churches. The sanctuary doctrine, or the IJ, is the only doctrine that is unique to adventism, and separates us from the rest of the world, doctrinally.

It is THE central pillar that, if taken away, destroys adventism. That is why it is constantly being attacked. Satan has tried to cloud men's minds concerning this from the very outset, and to a large degree has been successful.

That is why, whenever I see someone attacking this central pillar of our faith, I know that they cannot be trusted. No matter how much they may praise Ellen White.

[skyblue888]