Did Willie White Influence his mother?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

The booklet confirms EGW as inspired, while exposing the book-changers. Willie White was one of the five.

Thanks Gordon, I know you have not rejected the Spirit of Prophecy, because of our earlier conversations. And because of that, I am going to give this a thorough look.

I have never met Gordon and yet we seem to have the same understanding on this issue.

Good for you Richard.

sky :)

[skyblue888]

miz3, did you at any time before believed in the doctrine of the investigative judgment based on the prophecy of Daniel 8:14?

sky

[miz3]

Sky,

I answered all those Biblical references on the "Investigative Judgment" topic here at the Theology Townhall.

[John317]

You, and anyone else on the forum, is also free to answer the TWO questions I have posed on the Ellen White quotes. Please help to clear up the seeming discrepancies?

Sure, those aren't a real problem.

As for the use of the word, "dictated," let's look at some of the ways Ellen White used it.

Your problem seems to be that you are imposing a definition on the word "dictated" rather than allowing Ellen White's use of it to determine what it means.

Quote:

God gives more than money to His stewards. Your talent of imparting is a gift. What are you communicating of the gifts of God, in your words, in your tender sympathy? . . . The knowledge of truth is a talent. There are many souls in darkness that might be enlightened by true, faithful words from you. There are hearts that are hungering for sympathy, perishing away from God. Your sympathy may help them. The Lord has need of your words, dictated by His Holy Spirit. . . . {OFC 140.2}

Quote:

Words Dictated by the Holy Spirit.--I speak to the workers, young and old, who are handling our books, and especially to those who are canvassing for the book that is now doing its errand of mercy: [CHRIST'S OBJECT LESSONS.] Exemplify in the life the lessons given by Christ in His Sermon on the Mount. This will make a deeper impression, and have a more lasting influence upon minds, than will the sermons given from the pulpit. You may not be able to speak eloquently to those you desire to help; but if you speak modestly, hiding self in Christ, your words will be dictated by the Holy Spirit; and Christ, with whom you are cooperating, will impress the heart. {PM 302.2}

Quote:

It matters not who Satan makes to speak, if his object is only accomplished. He was so intimately connected with Paine upon earth, and so aided him, that it is an easy thing for him to know the very words he used, and the very hand-writing of one of his devoted children who served him so faithfully, and accomplished his purposes so well. Satan dictated much of his writings, and it is an easy thing for him to dictate sentiments through his angels now, and make it appear that it comes through Thomas Paine, who was his devoted servant while he lived. But this is the masterpiece of Satan. All this teaching purporting to be from apostles, and saints, and wicked men who have died, comes directly from his Satanic majesty. {1SG 176.2}

NOTE: In the above, "dictate" is the same as "influenced." The word is used to mean "directed,"

Notice the way Ellen White uses the word, dictated, in the following passages:

Quote:

You are unwilling to be dictated to or directed. You want to do all the dictating yourself. 2 T

Quote:

They should not seek to strengthen themselves in the performance of duty by any other consideration than a love to obey every requirement of God as found in His word and dictated by an enlightened conscience. {2T 487.2}

Quote:

Every action of their lives is judged, not by the external appearance, but from the motive which dictated the action. {3T 506.3}

Quote:

These very strong sermons that cut a man all to pieces are sometimes positively necessary to arouse, alarm, and convict. But unless they bear the especial marks of being dictated by the Spirit of God they do far more injury than they can do good. {3T 507.2}

Quote:

The lives recorded in the Bible are authentic histories of actual individuals. From Adam down through successive generations to the times of the apostles we have a plain, unvarnished account of what actually occurred and the genuine experience of real characters. It is a subject of wonder to many that inspired history should narrate in the lives of good men facts that tarnish their moral characters. Infidels seize upon these sins with great satisfaction and hold their perpetrators up to ridicule. The inspired writers did not testify to falsehoods to prevent the pages of sacred history being clouded by the record of human frailties and faults. The scribes of God wrote as they were dictated by the Holy Spirit, having no control of the work themselves. They penned the literal truth, and stern, forbidding facts are revealed for reasons that our finite minds cannot fully comprehend. {4T 9.1}

It is one of the best evidences of the authenticity of the Scriptures that the truth is not glossed over nor the sins of its chief characters suppressed. Many will urge that it is an easy matter to relate what has occurred in an ordinary life. But it is a proved fact that it is a human impossibility to give an impartial history of a contemporary; and it is almost as difficult to narrate, without deviating from the exact truth, the story of any person or people with whose career we have become acquainted. The human mind is so subject to prejudice

10

that it is almost impossible for it to treat the subject impartially. Either the faults of the person under review stand out in glaring relief, or his virtues shine with undimmed luster, just as the writer is prejudiced for or against him. However impartial the historian may design to be, all critics will agree that it is a very difficult matter to be truly so. {4T 9.2}

But divine unction, lifted above the weaknesses of humanity, tells the simple, naked truth.

Quote:

With what fidelity do these words portray the present condition of the church: "Knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." Messages of warning, dictated by the Holy Spirit, are borne by the servants of God, defects of character are presented before the erring; but they say: "That does not represent my case. I do not accept the message you bring. I am doing the best I can. I believe the truth." {5T 101.4}

Quote:

You may not be able to speak eloquently to those you desire to help; but if you speak modestly, hiding self in Christ, your words will be dictated by the Holy Spirit; and Christ, with whom you are co-operating, will impress the heart. {6T 472.1}

Quote:

Have you not been dictated by fashion in clothing your children? The Health Reformer

Quote:

Man's purpose, dictated by the wisdom of Satan, is to deny God's requirements. Human laws have taken the place of the divine. The will of finite man has been brought into direct collision with the will of the infinite God. The judgment of the creature is set above that of the Creator. Man is working in direct hostility to the God of heaven. {RH, July 26, 1898 par. 1}

Quote:

When selfish projects are presented to you, do you closely examine your motives, and turn away from that which is not dictated by the Spirit of God? Do selfish desires control you, or do you honor God by consulting his word, by earnestly seeking him in prayer, that he may guide you in wisdom? YI, May 4, 1893

Quote:

That course of study which is not dictated by the Holy Spirit, which does not embrace the high, holy principles of God's word, will open before the student a course unmarked by the approval of heaven. It will leave gaps, and mistakes, and misunderstandings all along the road he travels. Those who will not give themselves to a deep, earnest, prayerful study of the Scriptures will hold ideas contrary to the principles that should control the life. {YI, March 31, 1898 par. 9}

Quote:

In the testimonies sent to the Denver meeting, the Spirit of God dictated a message that should have prevented the carrying out of plans which would result in disappointment. If our brethren should persist in carrying out their plans regarding the proposed enterprise, they would be going contrary to the expressed will of the Lord. God does not at one time send a message of warning, and later another message encouraging a movement against which He had previously given warning. His messages do not contradict one another.

Quote:

5. Unbalanced Course.--"The course of study which is not dictated by the Holy Spirit, which does not embrace the high, holy principles of God's Word, will open before the student a course unmarked by the approval of Heaven. It will leave gaps, and mistakes, and misunderstandings all along the road he travels. Those who will not give themselves to a deep, earnest, prayerful study of

41

the Scriptures will hold ideas contrary to the principles that should control the life. . . . {PH124 40.3}

Quote:

When they came into the meeting in the morning I was surprised to hear Elder_____make the kind of a speech he did before a large audience of believers and unbelievers--a speech which I knew could not be dictated by the Spirit of the Lord. He was followed by Elder_____, who made remarks of the same order, before Brother Morrison began his talk, which was all calculated to create sympathy which I knew was not after God's order.

Quote:

Let your requirements ever be dictated by the Holy Spirit of God. When the officers of the General Conference allow such restrictions to be made, they give evidence that they need clearer spiritual eyesight, that the heavenly anointing is not upon them. {PCO 52.4}

Quote:

A few weeks ago I sent a letter to Elder Shireman. He was presented before me as worried and suffering in mind. I was given instruction regarding the course you are pursuing toward him, a course which is not dictated by the counsels of God.

[Guest]

Richard Holbrook,

I would think you would know who the "brethren" are?

Do the "SDA Church Leaders" ring a bell?

Why didn't you just say so? I probably think less of the leadership than you do, but I see no need to be vocal about it in public. I do discuss these things with others though, in a more private setting. The church has been in apostasy for a long long time. It makes me sad, but I don't know what I could do about it. But no matter what the "brethren" do, it doesn't change my understanding of the original doctrines, nor does it effect my personal relationship with God.

[John317]

True, there was no clear light that God wanted her to go to Australia. But she went anyway, because the GC had asked her to go. So she stepped out in faith, trusting in God. And God blessed her decision. By the time she got back to the US, Ellen White was no longer doubting that it was right for her to go to Australia. When we see what was accomplished, there can be no doubt that God wanted her to visit Australia.

[miz3]

John317,

In the cases I gave you there was no contextual use which meant "influence". It is straight up "Dictate" as in giving the actual words to say. God did not give Moses an "influence" in regard to the Ten Commandments. Come on John playing word games has been what I've seen almost from the beginning. This is not a real surprise to me for this has been the nature of those who have no case since the beginning of time. I know what comes next! You all will say it is me that is playing "word" games. That is also predictable. Playing word games is always used to counter something that is clear, like the Word of God, or what Ellen White really said and change and twist it so that it allows one to make it say something else. They did this to Christ while on this earth and Satan did the same in the Garden to Eve.

This is what I mean when I state that we use broad fluid contexts to twist what we very well know in fact is not the case.

It is fashionable in today's world to take the clear "words of God" either from the Bible and from Ellen White and shape them to suit our Doctrine.

I guess I was wrong to hope for better. People seem to be more concerned about "defending Doctrine and the Church "line" at all costs" rather than actually find Truth.

[John317]

But there have always been serious problems among God's people. The leaders have never been perfect, even in the early years of our church. Far from it. Yet God continues to use faulty human beings. They were certainly not without great faults in Ellen White's day, yet she didn't encourage people to withdraw from he church or to stop giving their tithes. We need to pray for the church and for the people who have problems. Ellen White said the angel's would often urge, "Closer, draw closer together."

[John317]

Here's the definition of "dictated" according to the Webster's dictionary from Ellen White's day:

DICTATED, pp. Delivered with authority; ordered; directed; suggested.

Are you going to let Ellen White use the word as she intended it? Or will you impose your own meaning on it?

Notice that "dictated" didn't mean in Ellen White's day what it does today.

[miz3]

But there have always been serious problems among God's people. The leaders have never been perfect, even in the early years of our church. Far from it. Yet God continues to use faulty human beings. They were certainly not without great faults in Ellen White's day, yet she didn't encourage people to withdraw from he church or to stop giving their tithes. We need to pray for the church and for the people who have problems.

I COULD NOT AGREE MORE IF I HAD SAID IT MYSELF!

[miz3]

John317,

Please answer my post #437296.

[skyblue888]

But there have always been serious problems among God's people. The leaders have never been perfect, even in the early years of our church. Far from it. Yet God continues to use faulty human beings. They were certainly not without great faults in Ellen White's day, yet she didn't encourage people to withdraw from he church or to stop giving their tithes. We need to pray for the church and for the people who have problems. Ellen White said the angel's would often urge, "Closer, draw closer together."

Come on John! If we were to follow this reasoning to its logical conclusion, we would have to question Jesus Christ Himself and the Reformers and side with the religious leaders of their day. In other words, history would have to be re-written!

It's not merely about problems within the church but about the rejection of light and compromising the pillars of our faith, even repudiating them in secret meetings, as Jesus was tried secretly, in order to have the approval and friendship of the worldly churches. But the Testimonies have warned us that we have far more to fear from their friendship than from their enmity.

And let us not forget that the leaders did not only reject Christ in 1888, they rejected Him at every General Conference following 1888 and in 1903, after reversing the reformatory steps to re-organize, steps that had been taken in 1901, they voted to put God aside and accepted the devisings of men. Mrs. White warned that if this order of things were allowed to continue, their faith would soon become extinct. (T.M.481)

The 1903 order of things has been with us ever since.

sky

*In the days of Christ and His disciples and of the Reformers and their converts, there were those who became convinced by the Holy Spirit to support the bearers of the heaven-sent message. They were in the minority, of course. Nobody can deny this.

[miz3]

Come on John, if we were to follow this reasoning to its logical conclusion, we would have to question Jesus Christ Himself and the Reformers and side with the religious leaders of their day. In other words, we would have to re-write history.

It's not merely about problems within the church but about the rejection of light and compromising the pillars of our faith, even repudiating them, in order to have the approval and frienship of the worldly churches. But the Testimonies have warned us that we have far more to fear from their friendship than from their enmity.

And let us not forget that the leaders did not only reject Christ in 1888, they rejected Him at every General Conference following 1888 and in 1903, after reversing the reformatory steps that had been taken in 1901, they voted to put God aside and accepted the devisings of men. Mrs. White warned that if this order of things were allowed to continue, their faith would soon become extinct. (T.M.481)

The 1903 order of things has been with us ever since.

I COULD NOT AGREE MORE IF I HAD SAID IT MYSELF

[ClubV12]

I had to chuckle, excuse me,,, but I was thinking of some of the strife among the early church founders. Paul, Luke, Timothy, you know, all the "regulars". They had their disagreements, differing doctrinal points and the like.

...there is nothing new under the sun... :)

[skyblue888]

Sky,

I answered all those Biblical references on the "Investigative Judgment" topic here at the Theology Townhall.

I just want to know if at any time in your Christian experience you believed in the doctrine of the Investigative Jugdment beginning on the 22nd of October, 1844?

sky :)

[skyblue888]

I had to chuckle, excuse me,,, but I was thinking of some of the strife among the early church founders. Paul, Luke, Timothy, you know, all the "regulars". They had their disagreements, differing doctrinal points and the like.

...there is nothing new under the sun...

CluV12, beyond this, we have the Testimoinies speaking of rejection of the light, the light that was to lighten the earth with its glory. (T.M.91,92) That if that light had been received, the work would have been finished long ago and Jesus would have returned. We are also talking about a leadership that willfully compromised the pillars of our faith in the 1950s so that the SDA church should be recognized as a Christian church and no longer categorized among the anti-Christian cults! This happened and it was prophesied that it would. (1 S.M.204,205) This was part of the "omega of apostasy" within the professed church of Christ. (1 S.M.197)

We have seen the effect of these compromises. Ever since these meetings with the Evangelicals in the 1950s, the "new theology" has been creeping into the church by being taught in our schools and from our pulpits, while the semblance of a zeal for truth is being maintained.

sky

*new theology on the nature of Christ in His humanity and the atonement.

[Gordon1]

Well there seems to be some consensus.

"A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath, of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement." 1 Selected Messages 204-5.

[skyblue888]

Well there seems to be some consensus.

"A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath, of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement." 1 Selected Messages 204-5.

Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. Brother Andreason tried to stand in the way of this new movement. As he began pleading with the leaders of the G.C. to stop what they were doing, he was warned to stop what he was doing or else... He was told that he had no right to question what they were doing since these men were possessed of superior judgment. Finally he had his credentials taken away from him. I understand that they gave them back to him on his death bed.

sky

[Gordon1]

True, there was no clear light that God wanted her to go to Australia. But she went anyway, because the GC had asked her to go. So she stepped out in faith, trusting in God. And God blessed her decision. By the time she got back to the US, Ellen White was no longer doubting that it was right for her to go to Australia. When we see what was accomplished, there can be no doubt that God wanted her to visit Australia.

Hi John, we've discussed this before. The end does not justify the means. This is a crucial concept for serious minded Christians to grasp, for it's a distinguishing hallmark of the apostate power. Yes EGW accomplished a good work In Australia. This does not justify the actions of the church, nor does it prove it was God's design for her to go. EGW worked faithfully wherever she went, and God is always on duty. Of course Australia was blessed, but perhaps He had better plans for her at home or elsewhere.

There's no doubt that God wanted Australia to hear the Advent message. But quite possibly He had hopes that others would take up the cause. There is a reason the prophet saw 'no clear light', so I have doubts that God intended her to make this trip as Plan A, or He would have made it plain. To describe it as an unqualified success lessens the focus on the spiritual darkness in America, and reduces the responsibilty on those leaders who shunned the prophet. That's a form of dishonesty which denies personal or even corporate responsibility. In other words, when bullying, corruption, or evil is at work, we need to speak up and say NO. Kingly powers are not to be found among God's people. "All ye are brethren."

[Gordon1]

Finally he had his credentials taken away from him. I understand that they gave them back to him on his death bed.

After a life of faithful denominational service, he was shunned. I believe he lost his pension, at least temporarily, but I've forgotten the sad details.

It's an important lesson for those who align themselves with any organization.

I think he died with a broken heart. Heaven marked it all.

[Gordon1]

Elder abuse.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: John317

True, there was no clear light that God wanted her to go to Australia. But she went anyway, because the GC had asked her to go. So she stepped out in faith, trusting in God. And God blessed her decision. By the time she got back to the US, Ellen White was no longer doubting that it was right for her to go to Australia. When we see what was accomplished, there can be no doubt that God wanted her to visit Australia.

Hi John, we've discussed this before. The end does not justify the means. This is a crucial concept for serious minded Christians to grasp, for it's a distinguishing hallmark of the apostate power. Yes EGW accomplished a good work In Australia. This does not justify the actions of the church, nor does it prove it was God's design for her to go. EGW worked faithfully wherever she went, and God is always on duty. Of course Australia was blessed, but perhaps He had better plans for her at home or elsewhere.

There's no doubt that God wanted Australia to hear the Advent message. But quite possibly He had hopes that others would take up the cause. There is a reason the prophet saw 'no clear light', so I have doubts that God intended her to make this trip as Plan A, or He would have made it plain. To describe it as an unqualified success lessens the focus on the spiritual darkness in America, and reduces the responsibilty on those leaders who shunned the prophet. That's a form of dishonesty which denies personal or even corporate responsibility. In other words, when bullying, corruption, or evil is at work, we need to speak up and say NO. Kingly powers are not to be found among God's people. "All ye are brethren."

Well taken Gordon1.

sky :)

[skyblue888]

Elder abuse.

I had never thought of it that way but you are right!

sky :)

[Gordon1]

It must be something in the water, skyblue.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Finally he had his credentials taken away from him. I understand that they gave them back to him on his death bed.

After a life of faithful denominational service, he was shunned. I believe he lost his pension, at least temporarily, but I've forgotten the sad details.

It's an important lesson for those who align themselves with any organization.

I think he died with a broken heart. Heaven marked it all.

If I remember correctly when the government got wind of it, they put pressure on the church leaders to give him back his pension. Yes it may very well have precipitated his death.

sky