Meat Eating

[Woody]

"The liability to take disease is increased tenfold by meat eating." CD 386

Why is the government allowing such poison?

[miz3]

Was that before proper preparation, refrigeration, and increased speed of transport, etc. that has come with the increase in technology.

In the days of this statement meat was kept around many times for months before being consumed. ETC.

Does the increase in health technology change the equation?

[Woody]

yes

[ClubV12]

No

[miz3]

Does this mean that Ellen White was correct about meat eating in the 19th Century?

However, in today's world her prohibitions against meat eating would not apply?

[ClubV12]

It's likely WORSE today than in her time. Medicine being fed to animals for one. And the increased production rate demands in many cases create unhealthy living conditions. Which it turn call for,,, more medicine. I suspect the moral corruption and ethical standards have gone down hill from her day to ours as well. Is that offset by better USDA inspections? Maybe, maybe not. There have been reports of animals being slaughtered that were barely alive at the time. Cancer's cut out, the rest of the meat sold. Maybe they did that back in the day as well? EColi keeps coming around. And now with MASS PRODUCTION of meat goods shipped all over the country the impact is much larger. Meat production in her day would have been more limited to local areas. Refrigeration is just one small part of the equation.

If it was really pertinent it might make for an interesting study though. The meat/slaughter house preparation practices of her day vs our modern times.

As for me, I'll just take the counsel at face value, I think it not only applies today it likely applies even more!

[miz3]

That was exactly my point, ClubV12, her day vs our modern times.

You have staked out your position that Ellen White's counsel is still applicable today.

WHY?

[Tom Wetmore]

So if one raises/hunts their own animals for food or gets their meat directly from organic farmers how will that correlate with all this?

[Woody]

That was exactly my point, ClubV12, her day vs our modern times.

You have staked out your position that Ellen White's counsel is still applicable today.

WHY?

Much of her counsel was culturally based. At least that is frequently what I am told. And then the same people will turn around and say it isn't. So I am extremely confused.

I am going to take a break from this and have a bike ride. lol

[ClubV12]

Did you miss the first line of my post as to "why"?

Let me repeat it:

"It's likely WORSE today than in her time. Medicine being fed to animals for one."

You position seems to be meat production is better and more healthy today than in her time. My position is that it may not be, and may in fact be even worse! Certainly when it does go bad, the impact is much bigger on the general population of OUR time vs her time.

I doubt the "McDonalds", in her time, had recalls that spanned the nation for bad beef. But we see that today! :)

[Woody]

Both times had their extreme bad and good.

[ClubV12]

Tom, hunting or getting meat from your local rancher/farmer may be more like what you would have found in her time. Likely better and more healthy than you would get at the grocery store. And at least you know the source!

[Woody]

May I point out the quote I provided.

It stated ten fold. That is what I reject.

[miz3]

ClubV12,

Your position is that in YOUR OPINION meat for food is worse today than in Ellen White's day.

You are entitled to that position. The question is how true is it?

I am not the one to ask, but I also have an opinion based on things about meat production that I know from today and those done in Ellen White's day. I think today is much superior to yesteryear. Like I said, that is MY OPINION!

Which is worse? Having a lot of individual meat go bad on a lot of individual home areas, or having a small amount from one source (like today) going bad and hitting many?

They did not have "fast food" in Ellen White's day.

[miz3]

Good point Woody!

[miz3]

I really mean, great point Woody!

[ClubV12]

It's just my opinion as well, like I already POSTED, it would make an interesting STUDY to compare meat production in her day to meat production in our modern times.

We KNOW medicine is widely used today, thats a major problem right there from her time to ours.

Now from a spirtual standpoint, a prophetic standpoint if you would, if she said it was "10 times" at the very least I would not rush to ignore the counsel. Considering the source, I have to take it very seriously indeed.

[Woody]

Good point Woody!

I really mean, great point Woody!

You are spot on

[ClubV12]

"It's likely WORSE today than in her time."

Did you miss the word "likely"? Does that SOUND like a statement of fact or opinion?

[Woody]

"It's likely WORSE today than in her time."

Did you miss the word "likely"? Does that SOUND like a statement of fact or opinion?

She said: "The liability to take disease is increased tenfold by meat eating." CD 386

[Woody]

It's just my opinion as well, like I already POSTED, it would make an interesting STUDY to compare meat production in her day to meat production in our modern times.

We KNOW medicine is widely used today, thats a major problem right there from her time to ours.

Now from a spirtual standpoint, a prophetic standpoint if you would, if she said it was "10 times" at the very least I would not rush to ignore the counsel. Considering the source, I have to take it very seriously indeed.

Well - All we know is that she ate meat most all of her life. Even after she had her health message on meat. So, I guess she would know.

[ClubV12]

While your statement of EGW eating meat "most of her life" may be true it is misleading. It would cause one to think that Ellen White condoned meat eating, or worse, was a hypocrite.

Niether case is true. When the nature of the meat question became clear, she stopped eating meat, nor did she condone eating meat after it became clear.

[Woody]

Quote:

When the nature of the meat question became clear, she stopped eating meat, nor did she condone eating me after it became clear.

Interesting. Can you give me a date when it became clear enough for her to stop? I believe the health message was in 1863. How long after she understood her message did she stop eating meat? Or may I assume that since you state she stopped when it became clear - that the year she stopped was 1863?

[Woody]

In digging up quotes regarding this - Was this what you had in mind?

Quote:

In 1870, speaking of her response to the health reform vision of 1863, she said,

"I left off these things from principle. I took my stand on health reform from principle. . . . I moved out from principle, not from impulse.

[And] I have advanced nothing but what I stand to today." 2T p.372

OH. Perhaps this is even better from 1864-

Quote:

(1864) Sp. Gifts IV, 153, 154

4. I have thought for years that I was dependent upon a meat diet for strength. I have eaten three meals a day until within a few months. It has been very difficult for me to go from one meal to another without suffering from faintness at the stomach, and dizziness of the head. Eating would remove these feelings. I seldom allowed myself to eat anything between my regular meals, and have made it a practice to often retire without supper. But I have suffered greatly for want of food from breakfast to dinner, and have frequently fainted. Eating meat removed for the time these faint feelings. I therefore decided that meat was indispensable in my case. {CD 482.2}

But since the Lord presented before me, in June, 1863, the subject of meat eating in relation to health, I have left the use of meat. For a while it was rather difficult to bring my appetite to bread, for which, formerly, I had but little relish. But by persevering, I have been able to do this. I have lived for nearly one year without meat. For about six months most of the bread upon our table has been unleavened cakes, made of unbolted wheat meal and water, and a very little salt. We use fruits and vegetables liberally. I have lived for eight months upon two meals a day. {CD 482.3}

[miz3]

Again Woody you are spot on.

Meat eating was a huge struggle for Ellen White even after she clearly said that God had shown her the vegetarian truth.

To me the crime has been that the SDA Church tried to cover such facts. For decades SDA rank and file church members thought that their Prophet was a total vegetarian after she received the messages from God. At least that is what they have been told by their pastors and leaders.

It is interesting that she did not die from her meat eating!

Again, if meat was 10times (that is a huge increase) more likely, then why does she continue to indulge in the practice.

Just to give you a picture of what ten times more means:

Take a sample of 100 humans. For the sake of argument (not actual stats) lets say the incidents of disease is 5% among vegetarians (that means 5 out of the one hundred pool).

A ten times increase would mean that now 50 out of that same 100, as meat eaters, would get disease and die.

Do the actual stats verify this number in her day?

Do the actual stats verify this number in our day?

It is clearly assumed we can draw a direct correlation from diet to the death and disease.