Meat Eating

[ClubV12]

Why yes, I CAN give you a date! It's a bit complicated but try to follow the logic here.

First things first, she was cautious about making the whole "meat question" as a big deal. There's a particulary good reason for that in the mid 1800's. No refrigeration! People were dependant on local produce, foods and meats. If no local produce was available many times the ONLY choice was meat. Fresh, not "months old" unless it was cured or salted.

Before her '63 health vision she was very dependant on meat, with her frail health she considered meat an important part of her diet to retain strength. Following her health vision in '63 she substantially cut meat out of her diet. She how realized she had been wrong on the question a meat diet being "good" for you. Never the less, when traveling especially, it was meat, or nothing.

In 1894 she put her foot down, not allowing even those working for her to consume meat at all.

So you are correct when you say she ate meat "most of her life", but it is in fact misleading. She reduced her intake of meat substantially, starting in 1863.

[Woody]

Just to nip this myth in the bud -

After saying in 1864 that she had ceased from eating meat :

IN 1873 She ate duck. See Manuscript 12, 1873

"A few weeks after the duck eating experience in the Rockies in October 1873, Elder and Mrs. White were in California and she on February 15, 1874, reported that since they had been in that state they had dropped meat entirely, having "bought meat once for May Walling while she was sick, but not a penny have we expended for meat since."--Letter 12, 1874, p. 1. {7MR 346.4}

Yet, in 1876 she calmly talks about eating salmon a number of times at home while her husband was gone. Check this out in MR vol 14 p.336

1878 ... "Christmas morning we all took breakfast together--James Cornell; Florence and Clara, their two girls; Brother and Sister Moore and their three children; Sister Bahler and Etta, a girl living with them; and Sister Daniells, our cook, Father, and myself. We had a quarter of venison cooked, and stuffing. It was as tender as a chicken. We all enjoyed it very much. There is plenty of venison in market." 14MR 318

"Thursday morning we arose from our births refreshed with sleep. At eight o'clock we took a portion of the pressed chicken food liberally furnished us by the matron of the sanitarium, put the same in a two-quart pail, and placed it on the stove, and thus we had good hot chicken broth and enjoyed our breakfast. The morning was very cold and this hot dish was very palatable. ... We have plenty of room, good food and plenty of it. Sister McComber scalded up the chicken. Will scald the meat tomorrow morning."10. E.G. White, Letter 6a, 1880. Published in Manuscript Releases, Vol. 11, pp. 142, 147

1882 she asked her daughter in law "If you can get me a good box of herrings, fresh ones, please do so. These last ones that Willie got are bitter and old. ... If you can get a few cans of good oysters, get them" Letter 16 1882

In 1894 she had a reconversion about meat because of a Catholic women (Mrs. Press) and stated "Since the camp meeting at Brighton (January 1894) I have absolutely banished meat from my table" CDF 88

Again in 1894 she stated "But when the selfishness of taking lives of animals to gratify a perverted appetite was presented to me by a Catholic woman, kneeling at my feet, I felt ashamed and distressed ... I said 'I will no longer patronize the butcher, I will not have the flesh of corpses on my table'" Test p. 38

In 1895 she asked her son to buy some "dried codfish and dried fish of ANY description --- nothing canned". Letter 149

1896 "I use fish when I can get it. We get beautiful fish from the salt water lake near here." Letter 128 1896

1907 ... she wrote .... "I said to Sara,'take chickens from my place and prepare them some broth" CDF 466

What my point is ....

And I will quote her .... "we do not want to force anyone to give up its (meat) use". Letter 48 1902

And this from 1909 ...

"Should health reform in its most extreme form be taught to those whose circumstances forbid its adoption, more harm than good would be done. .... The gospel must be preached to the poor, but the time has not yet come to prescribe the strictest diet" GCB June 2 1909 p. 270

[R. & H., MAY 27, 1902] C.H. 575, 576

"Greater reforms should be seen among the people who claim to be looking for the soon appearing of Christ. Health reform is to do among our people a work which it has not yet done. There are those who ought to be awake to the danger of meat eating, who are still eating the flesh of animals, thus endangering the physical, mental, and spiritual health. Many who are now only half converted on the question of meat eating will go from God's people to walk no more with them."

Again ... I find no problem with her addiction to meat. If you do a little research you will find that she ate all kinds of meat throught out her life. It just shows she was human and recognized that not all should be forced to abide by health reform. We each do the best we can.

This is good news to me. I would not want to condemn others for the use of meat. Jesus ate fish and beef and encouraged others to also. But for certain ... we are not to condemn others for doing so.

[ClubV12]

"...her addiction to meat." Going for the big headline there Woody?

"Addiction"? Well, that has a certain ring to it, a rather misleading ring considering her before 1863 diet and afterward! I eat myself, but I'm hardly "addicted" to it, but I do some folks I wonder about. I think they might just be "addicted", they always BBQ'ing something. :)

[Woody]

ClubV. Addiction means you can't stop. It does not imply quantity. Having been an alcohol and drug counselor ... I do know a little about addictions. I've seen many folks with such.

[miz3]

ClubV12,

Apparently, Ellen White was willing to risk the ten times more likely even after 1863, because it was not practical for her to be total vegetarian. (For more than 30 years mind you).

Yet the message from God did not say, "don't eat meat unless it is inconvenient". Yet she in spite of God's clear message continued to eat meat because it made sense to do so. Yet while she is doing what made sense to her the rest of the SDA Church had to suffer inconvenience and unpractical situations or receive the wrath of God from the Prophet and from SDA leaders because they were not being "good" Adventist showing that they were ready for Translation in God's soon 2nd Coming. (bludgeoning using the Testimonies, still continues today).

If that does not take the cake, I don't know what will!

I can remember as a child being told that Ellen White stated that those who were fit for Translation would not put "one morsel of meat in their mouths".

Everyone around me believed that ONLY vegetarians would be Translated.

[Woody]

Quote:

Apparently, Ellen White was willing to risk the ten times more likely even after 1863, because it was not practical for her to be total vegetarian. (For more than 30 years mind you).

Yet the message from God did not say, "don't eat meat unless it is inconvenient". Yet she in spite of God's clear message continued to eat meat because it made sense to do so. Yet while she is doing what made sense to her the rest of the SDA Church had to suffer inconvenience and unpractical situations or receive the wrath of God from the Prophet and from SDA leaders because they were not being "good" Adventist showing that they were ready for Translation in God's soon 2nd Coming. (bludgeoning using the Testimonies, still continues today).

If that does not take the cake, I don't know what will!

I can remember as a child being told that Ellen White stated that those who were fit for Translation would not put "one morsel of meat in their mouths".

Everyone around me believed that ONLY vegetarians would be Translated.

I am very sorry for your experience miz3. Unfortunately it still happens today.

[Gary K]

So if one raises/hunts their own animals for food or gets their meat directly from organic farmers how will that correlate with all this?

The last time my dad went deer hunting, before I was born in the early 50's, what he saw stopped him from hunting forever.

He had shot himself a very healthy looking buck and as he started skinning it he could see worms in the meat right after the cutting edge of his knife. They immediately disappeared into the meat after the knife passed, but as he butchered that deer he found its entire body was full of worms/maggots. There were no muscle masses in that deer that weren't infested with worms, or as he called them, maggots.

He was a big time venison eater and had been his entire life. It was a major part of his diet and that experience stopped him cold.

He was living, and hunting, way out in the wilderness. The largest town in the region had a population of around 1,000, and he lived 100 miles away from it in the mountains. The closest town with a population of 50,000 or so was several hundred miles away. So, he was in what was very clean environment. Little, if any, pollution. No chemicals. Nothing like that. Population density was measured by square miles per person, not persons per square mile. So I would say even meat gotten hunting today has a good chance of being diseased.

Thirty five years or so ago I used to do a lot of stream fishing. Today I would have a hard time finding a stream that I would consider to be clean because of the increased population density and the increased number of homes outside of the main population areas. Now, no matter where you go someone has built their home there.

I grew up drinking directly from mountain streams on a regular basis. We never carried water while hiking in the woods because the creeks were so handy. Today, I wouldn't even consider drinking from those same streams.

Even animals raised outside of a feed lot are exposed to a lot more carcinogens, chemicals, pollution, etc... in their environment than they were 30 or 40 years ago, let alone 100 years ago. I believe that would cause even those animals to have more health problems than they would have in the past.

[miz3]

If it were not for God's grace I am sure that such experiences would have driven from His presence. In spite of these horrid and sometimes extremely embarrassing experiences God has never let me go and I know it is because of Him that I still live and have confidence of His Salvation!

Thanks Woody. Your posts are a real eye opener!

[Flyboy]

I haven't done the studies, but I suspect that meat today is much, much more healthy than meat from EGW's day. I agree with her that meat is less healthy than a veg diet, many scientists today confirm that. I still enjoy a great hamburger from time to time though.

As for those of you who say that she said it so we should to it. This is a scary statement. I have a question. Has anyone published, or even undertaken, a study or a statement of how we grade EGW writings. Clearly visions would be the most authoritative, but she said many things that were not visions but which some SDA treat with the same authority.

[Woody]

Quote:

Thanks Woody. Your posts are a real eye opener!

I do try to keep my eyes open.

Let me just say that some continue to try to excuse our prophet. They say - "well it was fresh meat".

Well the word of the Lord did not make exceptions for fresh meat. And at no time did our prophet make such an exception that I am aware of. She continued to frequently proclaim that she had stopped eating meat and then yet another fall.

I honestly consider this a great lesson of humanity. I do believe she is a prophet. But like most prophets ... she was faulty. To a con - that is heresy. To me - a blessing.

[Gary K]

It's likely WORSE today than in her time. Medicine being fed to animals for one. And the increased production rate demands in many cases create unhealthy living conditions. Which it turn call for,,, more medicine. I suspect the moral corruption and ethical standards have gone down hill from her day to ours as well. Is that offset by better USDA inspections? Maybe, maybe not. There have been reports of animals being slaughtered that were barely alive at the time. Cancer's cut out, the rest of the meat sold. Maybe they did that back in the day as well? EColi keeps coming around. And now with MASS PRODUCTION of meat goods shipped all over the country the impact is much larger. Meat production in her day would have been more limited to local areas. Refrigeration is just one small part of the equation.

If it was really pertinent it might make for an interesting study though. The meat/slaughter house preparation practices of her day vs our modern times.

As for me, I'll just take the counsel at face value, I think it not only applies today it likely applies even more!

As an aside....

USDA inspection is no guarantee that whatever has that stamp is actually edible. Remember the peanut scare? The USDA was regularly "inspecting" the plant that was the source of all the problems. Turns out that company was shipping moldy, rotten peanuts that were certified to be fit for human consumption by the USDA.

I had friends that worked in a large meat packing operation back in the 70's. Many of them quit eating meat, not because they were SDA's, religious in any way, or because of any desire to be vegetarians, but because of what they saw go on in the plant. That plant was regularly inspected and declared safe by the USDA and is still in operation today.

[Woody]

Again - there is no exception from our prophet for fresh home grown and regulated meat. So, I really don't get your point.

[ClubV12]

I don't see a DEMANDING call today for SDA's to stop eating meat immeditately or incur the wrath of God. I take it some have. I see a vegetarian lifestyle promoted, a good thing. Easier for some than for others. I've certainly cut way down on meat, as did Ellen White in 1863, but I've not yet come to the point of excluding it all together. It is something I'm considering though, as did Ellen White. Carefully, and in good time. Being a single guy it's tough to eat right, eat the best way possible, when you are preparing small amounts of food at any given time. Especially when your traveling, no doubt the same kind of problem EGW ran into when she was traveling. It would be easier for two people to make the transfer than one, or for a family than for a sinle guy. I don't have a clue how to cook, by the way, a skill I just never picked up and now wish I had!

[Woody]

Quote:

I don't see a DEMANDING call today for SDA's to stop eating meat immeditately or incur the wrath of God.

Stay tuned. There are a number here who loudly proclaim that during these last days ... that meat eaters will not be translated.

[Dr. Rich]

Hey Gary, and pray tell what is wrong with eating the maggots along with the deer? Are not they good to eat? Many in other countries believe they are like candy. Fish love them and people then eat the fish, so just grind it all up and eat it like hamburger. (Just kidding of course)

I am an outdoorsman and have been all my life. I have killed many deer and elk with both bow and firearms and have always butchered it myself. I make sure it is always taken care of properly. That deer with maggots was NOT taken care of and blow flies got to it which laid the eggs for the maggots. Your dad was NOT a very good ethical hunter it seems.

Bottom line for me is what Jesus said. He said that it is NOT what goes into the mouth that defiles or causes any sin, it is what comes out of that mouth that causes the problem. You can take that to the bank no matter what anyone else says!

[Parade Orange]

im glad DR RICH said he was kidding

i was gonna send him a MAGGOT PIE for the holidays

.. now im just gonna have to think where else i can send the darn thing

[Sonny]

Click here

[Parade Orange]

lol! funny SONNY

[phkrause]

Click here

That was a very funny scene, the whole movie was pretty funny.

[Flyboy]

Dr. Rich, your statement about GaryK's dad is groundless, and serves no purpose to further the discussion. I take offense to that sort of statement.

As for the general idea that there are vegetarian SDA's who claim that only non-meat eaters will be in Heaven, I also find this belief offensive. It is about the most blind, culturally centered, luxurious statement that a person can make. North Americans and Europeans have the great luxury of not only having variety in their diet but also of having the choice of whether to eat meat or not. Much of the rest of the world does not have that choice.

When traveling in remote parts of Asia and SE Asia I have encountered, and eaten, some pretty wily things. I have been given, for example, bee larvae by fellow SDA's as an offering to me, showing how much they respect me. This was in northeast India, where the people look Burmese, and where it took three days to reach. I was the first white man they had ever seen (only five years ago). The wife of a pastor there had the bee nest in her hand, the larvae still alive, and popped a few right into her mouth, as did I, reluctantly. The next morning she made me a cereal of them, fried in garlic and honey. That evening for dinner she killed a goat and prepared a stew. I like goat meat, but not with the hair still on the skin and sticking out from the top of the stew. But they all gobbled it up. The spend their days walking on the mountains, gathering wild vegetables and walking five miles for water. The only other foreigners they can remember seeing, before me, were the Japanese during WWII, walking through the mountain trails and villages.

I had the same food on a motorcycle trip through backcountry Laos but rejected the crickets this time. While traveling in Cambodia I regularly saw people eating spiders, whole baby birds, and roasted tarantulas. In China many SDA don't even follow the food laws that most other SDA follow, continuing to eat pork, etc. That's not universally true but it is not uncommon to eat out with an SDA who orders pork.

The debate on whether meat-eaters will go to Heaven has no basis in reality and is one that has been created (like other SDA practice) by North Americans, or those who were reached by EGW's writings, i.e., Australians and Europeans. It is grounded in cultural comfort zones and those who insist on adhering to it, I feel, are much more blind than those who they would judge for not adhering to it.

All of that said, why does no one ever raise the question of mushrooms. It certainly is not seed-bearing and they grow off of decaying things. Those of you who are strict vegetarians might ought to consider the question of mushrooms as well.

[Gary K]

Hey Gary, and pray tell what is wrong with eating the maggots along with the deer? Are not they good to eat? Many in other countries believe they are like candy. Fish love them and people then eat the fish, so just grind it all up and eat it like hamburger. (Just kidding of course)

I am an outdoorsman and have been all my life. I have killed many deer and elk with both bow and firearms and have always butchered it myself. I make sure it is always taken care of properly. That deer with maggots was NOT taken care of and blow flies got to it which laid the eggs for the maggots. Your dad was NOT a very good ethical hunter it seems.

Bottom line for me is what Jesus said. He said that it is NOT what goes into the mouth that defiles or causes any sin, it is what comes out of that mouth that causes the problem. You can take that to the bank no matter what anyone else says!

LOL. You make me laugh, once again. Your assummptions are just as faulty in this case as they are in your theology. My dad had hunted his entire life up to the time of the story, and he was a craftsman in everything he set his hand to do. He and my mom, as well his family when he was growing up, relied on his hunting and fishing for a large portion of their food, so to claim he didn't know what he was doing is ridiculous. To say that he was a lousy hunter with no more evidence than the fact that he found maggots in the meat is a real stretch. But, you go ahead and slander him if it makes you feel better about yourself, as slander is what you do best.

[Parade Orange]

FLYBOY!

thanku for the above post about ADVENTISTS who dont live in USA with canned vegi meats just a cupboard away.

i personally know more than a few SDA's who are complete vegans/vegetarians and do think they will be translated verses the cheese eaters and meat eaters at potlucks.

i am surrounded actually!

u cant reason with people who think like that cause they pull out SOP to defend their judgements

some of these people are my dearest friends and we are more than just our opinions and theology when we really know each other

but i do admit its very exclusive not inclusive mentality about others

i know how to quote scripture and talk holy so whatever i eat they think im sorta ok to hang around with

(BTW IM A VEGAN AS OF LAST FALL but only cause of health reasons not ADVENTISM)

i have been to philipino and somoan churches where chicken and fish are openly served at potlucks and i at the time was shocked as a much younger man

i grew up in white upper middle class USA SDA culture and never ever ever seen meat served. one day when a 10 year old kid found out my friend ate meat he announced 'you gonna die!'

i live in a SDA ghetto where spiritual abuse is rampant and everyone looks in the grocery carts when u bump into fellow church members.

they quote EQW more than the bible here!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Here again, I'm completely out of the loop. I have NEVER heard that the only people who will be translated to heaven are vegetarians/vegans. And I've been going to SDA churches since I was 2 yrs old. I've heard a lot of things, but that isn't one of them.

It seems to me that a few here are really scraping the bottom of the barrel to try and make a case against EGW. Get real, and stop the fake outrage at what she may or may not have done personally.. That's getting boring..

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

BTW, I did a CT scan of a patient who had massive pockets of worms inside his brain...the physicians are not quite sure how he ended up with them. No point of entry could be determined.

Ah...well...

Continue with your ridiculously phony "Ah jus' don' know whut to do, Miz Scarlett"....

[Parade Orange]

RUDYWOOFS GBU

its been ages!

u mean my experiences are not the norm?

why do I have to be around these people?

i thought everyone knew people like this!

lol

OK i will go there..... O WHY MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!