Meat Eating

[Parade Orange]

uhhhh

it just occurred to me why maybe other SDA's have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find people like this

i wont mention any towns or schools or establishments but in my area i am surrounded by 'self supportting ministries' in smaller ways and bigger ways.

and as an adult i see the difference now but growing up they all ran together in our churches and part of the body of CHRIST in the mainstream

i can tell u horror stories but i wont

and i am not posting against ELLEN WHITE

i dont know if u have seen my other posts regarding her but i assure u i dont have a problem with her or her writings

di i ever post anything that put me in that light?

i may scratch my head but i havent brought up those issues cause i dont read compilations anymore just the CONFLICT OF AGES books as well as a few other choice faves

im talking about the people i know very well

[Parade Orange]

Here again, I'm completely out of the loop. I have NEVER heard that the only people who will be translated to heaven are vegetarians/vegans. And I've been going to SDA churches since I was 2 yrs old. I've heard a lot of things, but that isn't one of them.

i have a friend who always quotes that and when i talk to her she will tell me where that SOP quote is

ok?

she tells everyone!

[Dr. Shane]

I haven't done the studies, but I suspect that meat today is much, much more healthy than meat from EGW's day.

Meat is most healthy when it is eaten within a day of the animal being killed. With the invention of refrigeration, a lot of meat is weeks or months old when eaten and has lost much of its nutritional value.

[Dr. Shane]

I have NEVER heard that the only people who will be translated to heaven are vegetarians/vegans.

I didn't read through the whole thread but... has anyone posted that quote from Sister White? If I recall correctly it says something like, 'Those that are preparing for translation will give up a flesh diet.' It has been many years since I saw it but my impression was that she was addressing the spirit of a person. In essence, she was saying that those that dig in their heels and say they will never give up meat are not of the right spirit. But I could be completely off on that.

We know today that fish out of clean waters is beneficial to our health. And Ellen White acknowledged that people in underdeveloped countries may not have good vegetarian options and should simple eat the best food they can.

[BobRyan]

This puppy makes a strong argument about the idea that eating meat makes people cruel to animals.

[Flyboy]

Here again, I'm completely out of the loop. I have NEVER heard that the only people who will be translated to heaven are vegetarians/vegans. And I've been going to SDA churches since I was 2 yrs old. I've heard a lot of things, but that isn't one of them.

It seems to me that a few here are really scraping the bottom of the barrel to try and make a case against EGW. Get real, and stop the fake outrage at what she may or may not have done personally.. That's getting boring..

Which part of the country are you from? Do you come from a small church or large one, city or rural, what is your age, and what were your parent's professions. What is your ethnic background? You don't have to answer any of these questions but you must realize that your experience may be entirely different from those of different demographics. My experience has not been the same as either you or Parade Orange suggest for yourselves on this thread. That does not mean that my experience is any less real.

I grew up in the south, went to medium-sized churches and my parents were lower-middle class, white. I did not hear EGW used much against meat-eating as an issue of salvation, except for the overall health message, but did hear it occasionally. The only way they could conceivably have done that would have been through EGW's writings, which is NOT the fault of EGW. I don't think most people try to tear down EGW, rather they tear down those who make her their postergirl for their favorite religious topics.

In this case, meat is no longer a major issue, or an issue at all, other than that not eating it is generally considered healthier among North American SDAs.

But don't kid yourself, there are plenty of conservative SDA out there who think this. You're unlikely to see too many on these forums because these kinds of people also may take issue with the usage of Internet and computers.

[ClubV12]

I've never seen that quote. I like to look at the year in which a quote was made if possible, by the way. It was the mid 1890's before Ellen White totally gave up meat, so the quote would most likely be after that time. If not, then I'd be scratching my head...

Actually, it does leave one scratching his head regardless of the year it was written. :)

[miz3]

I don't think most people try to tear down EGW, rather they tear down those who make her their postergirl for their favorite religious topics.

I agree with this statement 100%.

[miz3]

OK, since no one else is posting it, I will.

" I come again to Christians. If all who profess to obey the law of God were free from iniquity, my soul would be relieved; but they are not. Even some who profess to keep all the commandments of God are guilty of the sin of adultery. What can I say to arouse their benumbed sensibilities? Moral principle, strictly carried out, becomes the only safeguard of the soul. If ever there was a time when the diet should be of the most simple kind, it is now. Meat should not be placed before our children. Its influence is to excite and strengthen the lower passions, and has a tendency to deaden the moral powers. Grains and fruits prepared free from grease, and in as natural a condition as possible, should be the food for the tables of all who claim to be preparing for translation to heaven. The less feverish the diet, the more easily can the passions be controlled. Gratification of taste should not be consulted irrespective of physical, intellectual, or moral health. {2T 352.1}

Indulgence of the baser passions will lead very many to shut their eyes to the light, for they fear that they will see sins which they are unwilling to forsake. All may see if they will. If they choose darkness rather than light, their criminality will be none the less. Why do not men and women read, and become intelligent upon these things which so decidedly affect their physical, intellectual, and moral strength? God has given you a habitation to care for and preserve in the best condition for His service and glory. Your bodies are not your own. "What? know ye not that your body is the

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temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." {2T 352.2}"

[ClubV12]

Is it time now to start the research to figure out what year she wrote those?

Thanks for posting that miz3.

By the way, the principle that I see in this is that what we eat impacts our ability to have a clearer mind and thus raise's our ability to identify and overcome sin. It's the "mind and body" connection idea, a worthy consideration and an idea supported by modern science.

Now how you apply it, over time, in what order, what you do with it, is a whole 'nother can of worms.

[miz3]

There's more!

648. Again and again I have been shown that God is trying to lead us back, step by step, to His original design,-- that man should subsist upon the natural products of the earth. {CD 380.1}

MS 115, 1903

649. Vegetables, fruits, and grains should compose our diet. Not an ounce of flesh meat should enter our stomachs. The eating of flesh is unnatural. We are to return to God's original purpose in the creation of man. {CD 380.2}

(1905) M.H. 317

650. Is it not time that all should aim to dispense with flesh foods? How can those who are seeking to become pure, refined, and holy, that they may have the companionship of heavenly angels, continue to use as food anything that has so harmful an effect on soul and body? How can they take the life of God's creatures that they may consume the flesh as a luxury? Let them, rather, return to the wholesome and delicious food given to man in the beginning, and themselves practice, and teach their children to practice, mercy toward the dumb creatures that God has made and has placed under our dominion. {CD 380.3}

[miz3]

And more yet!

"

(1890) C.T.B.H. 119

651. Among those who are waiting for the coming of the Lord, meat eating will eventually be done away; flesh will

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cease to form a part of their diet. We should ever keep this end in view, and endeavor to work steadily toward it. I cannot think that in the practice of flesh eating we are in harmony with the light which God has been pleased to give us. All who are connected with our health institutions especially should be educating themselves to subsist on fruits, grains, and vegetables. If we move from principle in these things, if we as Christian reformers educate our own taste, and bring our diet to God's plan, then we may exert an influence upon others in this matter, which will be pleasing to God. {CD 380.4}

[C.T.B.H. 48] (1890) C.H. 116

652. It is not the chief end of man to gratify his appetite. There are physical wants to be supplied; but because of this is it necessary that man shall be controlled by appetite? Will the people who are seeking to become holy, pure, refined, that they may be introduced into the society of heavenly angels, continue to take the life of God's creatures, and enjoy their flesh as a luxury? From what the Lord has shown me, this order of things will be changed, and God's peculiar people will exercise temperance in all things. {CD 381.1}

(1909) 9T, 153, 154

653. Those who have received instruction regarding the evils of the use of flesh foods, tea, and coffee, and rich and unhealthful food preparations, and who are determined to make a covenant with God by sacrifice, will not continue to indulge their appetite for food that they know to be unhealthful. God demands that the appetite be cleansed, and that self-denial be practiced in regard to those things which are not good. This is a work that will have to be done before His people can stand before Him a perfected people. {CD 381.2}

MS 71, 1908

654. It is for their own good that the Lord counsels the remnant church to discard the use of flesh meats, tea, and coffee, and other harmful foods. There are plenty of other things on which we can subsist that are wholesome and good.

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{CD 381.3}"

[ClubV12]

Ah, just as I figured, some time after the mid 1890's (mostly) when she totally quit eating meat.

But this counsel concerns itself with far more than just meat. It's about a simple and natural diet. You could insert cakes, ice cream, spices, prepared foods from the market and a host of other products in this.

Which,,, I have to say, is also good counsel. Especially for certain groups of people who already have health issues. Even those with impaired mental ability may apply it to good benefit. Fresh produce vs canned produce for instance. Who wouldn't argue that produce from the local farmers market is better than canned goods from the super market.

[miz3]

And more!

Dear Brother and Sister H: I recollected your countenances as being among several that I had seen who need a work accomplished for them before they can be sanctified through the truth. You embraced the truth because you saw it to be truth, but it has not yet taken hold of you. You have not realized its sanctifying influence upon the life. The light has been shining upon your pathway in regard to health reform and the duty resting upon God's people in these last days to exercise temperance in all things. You, I saw, were among the number who would be backward to see the light and correct your manner of eating, drinking, and working. As the light of truth is received and followed out, it will work an entire reformation in the life and character of all those who are sanctified through it. {2T 60.2}

Your business is of a character that is not friendly to an advance in the divine life, but is one that will hinder the growth of grace and the knowledge of the truth. It has a tendency to lower, to debase the man, to make him more animal in his propensities. The higher powers of the mind are overpowered by the lower. The brutish part of your nature governs the spiritual. Those who profess to be fitting for translation should not become butchers. {2T 60.3}

Your family have partaken largely of flesh meats, and the animal propensities have been strengthened, while the

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intellectual have been weakened. We are composed of what we eat, and if we subsist largely upon the flesh of dead animals we shall partake of their nature. You have encouraged the grosser part of your organism, while the more refined has been weakened. You have repeatedly said in defense of your indulgence of meat eating: "However injurious it may be to others, it does not injure me, for I have used it all my life." But you know not how well you might have been if you had abstained from the use of flesh meats. As a family, you are far from being free from disease. You have used the fat of animals, which God in His word expressly forbids: "It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood." "Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings. Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people." {2T 60.4}

[Woody]

Ah, just as I figured, some time after the mid 1890's (mostly) when she totally quit eating meat.

Do you have a date for this. I thought it was 1863.

"But since the Lord presented before me, in June, 1863, the subject of meat eating in relation to health, I have left the use of meat. For a while it was rather difficult to bring my appetite to bread, for which, formerly, I had but little relish. But by persevering, I have been able to do this. I have lived for nearly one year without meat." {CD 482.3}

[miz3]

Actually, it does leave one scratching his head regardless of the year it was written.

Are you scratching your head?

You did say "regardless of the year it was written"!

[ClubV12]

Well I don't know ALL the dates of the counsel, but one date indicates 1890, which precedes the time she herself totally gave up a meat diet (1894 I think it was). So yes, the 1890 date is a "head scratcher" as would any date be prior to 1894 or so. I would think the very STRONG counsel about a meat diet would be in the mid 1890's and previous to that the concept of a meat less diet was being "fleshed out" (nice play on words there eh?).

She herself was "moving toward" a meatless diet in 1863, when she substantially cut down the heavy meat diet she previously THOUGHT was something she needed! Her counsel also makes note of this, folks thinking they NEED a meat diet and/or denying that any injury has come from eating meat.

But again, the principles I see here extend well beyond just meat and into counsel on a plain and simple diet. I recall she also, at one point, did not make pork a big issue, but later that was revised as "growth" in these matters took place.

Which is also a good lesson for us, "grow" into these things over time and with consideration for the conditions in which you find yourself. A pork farmer, being recently converted should not be expected to immediately sell the farm! But, he should be moving in that direction!

It looks to me like she "lived for one year" totally without meat following the 1863 vision. My take on that is that she was "moving to fast" in that direction. What with her traveling and the available food during those journeys. Lack of produce and such, eat meat, or eat nothing!

[miz3]

ClubV12,

If you will look at the Trustees of the Ellen White Estate's introduction entitled "The Times of Volume Two" (that is in regard to Volume two of the Testimonies) you note that it says, that the Testimonies in that Volume were written between February 1868 and May 1871.

Thus, the quotes given by me from that source happened BEFORE

the 1890 date you lean on. See my earlier posts of Ellen Whites words from Volume Two of the Testimonies.

Thus, Woody is correct when he states that Ellen White was still eating her meat and flesh foods while instructing others that "if they were truly preparing for TRANSLATION they would not eat a morsel of meat or flesh foods".

The case looks pretty tight.

[ClubV12]

Could be a "tight" case, I'm not sure exactly what that means, but moving on...

The dates for the "hard counsel", a decided stand, appear to be the early 1900's. BUT, even then, her counsel about about "growing" into change with consideration given as to how to achieve the goal remains a constant.

We DO have examples of some change needing to be immediate and acted upon without hesitation when it's received. Certain doctrinal issues, like Sabbath keeping could be considered in that regard. The details, quiting your job and "what now" still have to be worked out. But you accept it, or you don't. Meat eating is not in the category, it's not a test of faith, but it's a good idea!

What I see with the first 1863 light on a meat diet, is that she immediately applied it. For about a year. Reality check is she seems to have moved to fast in that regard. She too was human after all, a person of like passions as ourselves. Desirous of following all that she had been shown but applying it in a practicle manner is easier said than done! Like much of her counsel, are we "moving forward" on it or just throwing it away because we refuse to accept it?

Statements like this: "Your family have partaken largely of flesh meats, and the animal propensities have been strengthened,..." offer some insight as to the person she is speaking to. A HEAVY meat eater. A little balance please.

[miz3]

Certain doctrinal issues, like Sabbath keeping could be considered in that regard. The details, quiting your job and "what now" still have to be worked out. But you accept it, or you don't. Meat eating is not in the category, it's not a test of faith, but it's a good idea!

You are free to massage the facts all you want. However, the fact is those testimonies given by Ellen White took place between February 1868 and May 1871. That is at minimum 19 years before your 1890 date. That is quite a huge difference.

That means between 1868 and 1871 Ellen White was telling people that if they professed to being "prepared for translation" they would not take any meat or flesh food in their diet at all.

During that same time period she herself was consuming meat and flesh food. Does the word "hypocrisy" come to mind concerning this issue.

Now you may have a different view of what is major and what is minor. However, when Ellen White injects the concept of "translation" (meaning perfection) and associating it with meat eating and eating flesh foods, that to me is MAJOR! It is just as MAJOR as the Sabbath.

If she had just said meat eating and did not add "translation" I would agree that is categorically minor. However when you add those who are special because they are preparing for "translation" that moves it into the MAJOR category!

Because of the "translation" issue Ellen White moves meat eating into the "test of faith" category!

[ClubV12]

I think it is YOU who massaging the data!

You are SUGGESTING certain dates, but not nailing them down. The 1900's dates seem pretty secure. It seems the suggestion is that this hard counsel about translation and a meat diet is given in the mid 1800's and DEMANDS immediate change, or else God will strike you with a lightening bolt, or something.

Follow her example, even if the dates are around 1863. We should be MOVING TOWARD a better diet, not just meat, a simple diet. For those who are HEAVY meat eaters and think they NEED to be, reconsider! As SHE herself did. You don't NEED meat, she cut it out for a year, and then cut way back on it following that. Where you see a "hypocrite" I see a human, given a vision, and trying to implement what she had learned, over time and in a reasonable way. Which does not alter the counsel in any way.

The question is: How do you apply this counsel of a simple diet? Or, do you conclude because you think she was a hyprocrite it doesn't apply at all and you ignore it? Or is the conclusion that because she didn't immediately apply it to HER life, she is not a prophet? Just trying to figure out what your point is...

[miz3]

ClubV12,

My point is quite simple:

1. The dates are indeed a solid February 1868 to May 1871! Look it up yourself in Volume Two of the Testimonies. Thus publishers are the ones who cite those dates in their introduction. You can read it for yourself.

IT IS FACT!

2. It is a major Doctrine when "translation" is cited as the reason to move to this diet.

3. It is not just a move to a "simpler" diet. The passages cited are clear and unambiguous prohibition against meat eating and eating flesh foods and only a "massager" of the FACTS would see it otherwise.

[ClubV12]

"Grains and fruits prepared free from grease, and in as natural a condition as possible, should be the food for the tables of all who claim to be preparing for translation to heaven. The less feverish the diet, the more easily can the passions be controlled. Gratification of taste should not be consulted irrespective of physical, intellectual, or moral health. {2T 352.1}"

Regardless of the date, which I still question but think it irrelevant, never the less a head scratcher, what is wrong with the above counsel?

Do you reject the Lords messengers counsel on the subject?

"Grains and fruits prepared free from grease, and in as natural a condition as possible, should be the food for the tables of all who claim to be preparing for translation to heaven."

Grains and fruits, free from grease, in as natural a condition as possible, should be the diet for those preparing for translation. Sounds like very good advice to me. I don't see a "hammer" being pulled out here. I don't see this as a "test of faith" in some way. It's plain and simple counsel in perfect harmony with what science knows today.

[miz3]

ClubV12.

You are clearly a dishonest person in regard to this subject because you refuse to acknowledge the Truth when clearly pointed out to you.

I am not threatening the Prophet. You think I am so you are ready to defend her even if it means being dishonest.

That is sooooo sad!

[ClubV12]

"Regardless of the date, which I still question but think it irrelevant,,,"

You have not specified the specific source and date for the above quote, you have only suggested it as pertaining to a "don't eat meat" as a heavy handed policy demanding strict and immediate obediance. That is simply not the case.

If your not looking for "translation" feel free to have that steak and ice cream for desert. I would counsel however, have the steak well done and cut out the fat. You might consider Yogurt in place of ice cream.

Grains and fruits, prepared without grease, would be even better.