Meat Eating

[Dr. Rich]

if u go to my church and tell a few choice members that u eat meatwithout an apology u will get hit with the EGW scriptures

Try a church potluck in many places and you will find all kinds of meats prepared by Adventists. I remember trying to get to be first in line in order to pick the best piece of fried chicken. My dad actually came into the Adventist church because the men at the church inviting him to go hunting with them. Every time they killed and animal they would thank God for their success. Of course we lived in a place in Colorado where there were many ranches.

It appears that the Adventist Church has been infiltrated by NEW AGERS who use PETA as a club. I love wearing my T shirt around them that says: PETA and underneath: People Eating Tasty Animals. On the back it reads: All God's creatures look best right next to the mashed potatoes.

Wasn't it God who killed an animal to replace the fig leaves from Adam and Eve?

[miz3]

An SDA junior academy every year each class had to gather food and buy a turkey for both the Thanksgiving and Christmas baskets that were distributed to the "needy" in the area.

No one thought anything about it, yet there were people in the constituency and in the administration and staff that were always quoting Ellen White for this or that including Ellen White's statements on being a vegetarian.

Is this being inconsistent?

[Gary K]

An SDA junior academy every year each class had to gather food and buy a turkey for both the Thanksgiving and Christmas baskets that were distributed to the "needy" in the area.

No one thought anything about it, yet there were people in the constituency and in the administration and staff that were always quoting Ellen White for this or that including Ellen White's statements on being a vegetarian.

Is this being inconsistent?

I will rarely respond to your posts anymore, but your insinuation is that the people involved in helping those who would otherwise do without should enforce their own choices and beliefs on those they were helping. To this I say, Huh? Where do you get off even thinking that?

And your quoting of the word needy shows a clear prejudice against those who were being helped. You make your attitude of superiority plain in so doing.

[Parade Orange]

my son is PETA and vegan for moral reasons and when man and woman had no vegies after the flood GOD permitted the use of flesh for food

As we draw closer to GOD we will see all life is sacred and in heaven animals will not be slaughtered for our food

and my son is further than me on this

he wasnt raised SDA and works as a bouncer at a bar

he is a big man with a soft heart towards animals and i thank GOD for that

DR. RICH

yes GOD killed an animal to clothe them and GOD wasnt all giddy over it im sure

HE did that for a billion reasons three of which are

1. cloth them

2. sin causes death-first illustration

3. BLOOD is to be spilled to cloth us

HE DIDNT DO it so its a free for all on all living creatures

[miz3]

I will rarely respond to your posts anymore, but your insinuation is that the people involved in helping those who would otherwise do without should enforce their own choices and beliefs on those they were helping. To this I say, Huh? Where do you get off even thinking that?

And your quoting of the word needy shows a clear prejudice against those who were being helped. You make your attitude of superiority plain in so doing.

I can understand your reluctance to respond to my posts since you were never, ever, able to respond with any kind of intelligent response.

Once again your response above demonstrates the validity of what I am saying because your post (cited above) is clearly laced with vindictiveness, hatred, and unChristlike anger.

I was not suggesting an imposition of one's beliefs on an other. I was merely asking is it inconsistent to be so "vegetarian" and so "Ellen White quote happy" while doing the very thing she counseled us not to partake of.

The ones involved could have given to the "needy" while staying within the bounds of their vegetarian beliefs.

By the way those who accuse others of using code words in regard to minorities, in need persons, etc. are so filled with guilt conscious about there own past or their current prejudices and racist views and behavior they think that all others are like them.

I hate to tell you this GaryK I have nothing to feel guilty about in regard to such things. I feel sorry that you suffer from such guilt and feel the need be make unfounded accusations in order to mollify your own guilt in this regard.

You are right when you say it is better for you to not respond to me because each time you do you put your foot or both feet into your mouth.

[Parade Orange]

let me guys tell u about the feeding of the homeless a a few towns over!

these are the rural churches in my area that had the thanksgiving to put up fore the special holiday

and there was a nasty debate over meat or non meat thanksgiving for the homeless

they ended up getting VEGIE cause the ones that wanted nonmeat threatened to pull out and not give the much needed support and manpower for the HOLIDAY

the promeat people got their way and emphasized the right arm of the GOSPEL and they had SOP on their side

the homeless ever since then eat beans and or pasta and or rice with pumpkin pie and cranberry sauce (tofurky is so expensive) for every thanksgiving

they honestly see it as the right thing to do

[Gail]

let me guys tell u about the feeding of the homeless a a few towns over!

these are the rural churches in my area that had the thanksgiving to put up fore the special holiday

and there was a nasty debate over meat or non meat thanksgiving for the homeless

they ended up getting VEGIE cause the ones that wanted nonmeat threatened to pull out and not give the much needed support and manpower for the HOLIDAY

the promeat people got their way and emphasized the right arm of the GOSPEL and they had SOP on their side

the homeless ever since then eat beans and or pasta and or rice with pumpkin pie and cranberry sauce (tofurky is so expensive) for every thanksgiving

they honestly see it as the right thing to do

What about meeting them where they are?

[Parade Orange]

GAIL i agree i tried to approach a few on that back then but their eyes glaze over when they kniow they have right on their side

[Gail]

GAIL i agree i tried to approach a few on that back then but their eyes glaze over when they kniow they have right on their side

I understand.

[Dr. Rich]

my son is PETA and vegan for moral reasons and when man and woman had no vegies after the flood GOD permitted the use of flesh for food

As we draw closer to GOD we will see all life is sacred and in heaven animals will not be slaughtered for our food

and my son is further than me on this

he wasnt raised SDA and works as a bouncer at a bar

he is a big man with a soft heart towards animals and i thank GOD for that

DR. RICH

yes GOD killed an animal to clothe them and GOD wasnt all giddy over it im sure

HE did that for a billion reasons three of which are

1. cloth them

2. sin causes death-first illustration

3. BLOOD is to be spilled to cloth us

HE DIDNT DO it so its a free for all on all living creatures

Even a 5th grader knows that God made both prey and predator. Humans are the top of the food chain and are predators. If you want to believe that humans are equal with all animals as what PETA believes, then that is your choice, but don't go blowing smoke in places you don't belong. As one who grew up on a ranch and associated with other ranchers, it burns me up somewhat to hear people shout out that killing and eating animals is a sin. Well let me tell you something, the real sin is falsly testifying about what real sin is! So knock it off! (Please)

[Gail]

If they are convicted that it is a sin to them, why bother them?

It's not only PETA members who feel that it's a moral issue. To each their own.

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: GaryK

I will rarely respond to your posts anymore, but your insinuation is that the people involved in helping those who would otherwise do without should enforce their own choices and beliefs on those they were helping. To this I say, Huh? Where do you get off even thinking that?

And your quoting of the word needy shows a clear prejudice against those who were being helped. You make your attitude of superiority plain in so doing.

I can understand your reluctance to respond to my posts since you were never, ever, able to respond with any kind of intelligent response.

Once again your response above demonstrates the validity of what I am saying because your post (cited above) is clearly laced with vindictiveness, hatred, and unChristlike anger.

I was not suggesting an imposition of one's beliefs on an other. I was merely asking is it inconsistent to be so "vegetarian" and so "Ellen White quote happy" while doing the very thing she counseled us not to partake of.

The ones involved could have given to the "needy" while staying within the bounds of their vegetarian beliefs.

By the way those who accuse others of using code words in regard to minorities, in need persons, etc. are so filled with guilt conscious about there own past or their current prejudices and racist views and behavior they think that all others are like them.

I hate to tell you this GaryK I have nothing to feel guilty about in regard to such things. I feel sorry that you suffer from such guilt and feel the need be make unfounded accusations in order to mollify your own guilt in this regard.

You are right when you say it is better for you to not respond to me because each time you do you put your foot or both feet into your mouth.

lolz....

BTW, Ellen White also counseled us to meet people where they are. Of course, though, that wouldn't fit your agenda. You likd to take whatever position you can in your attempt to make SDA's look bad, no matter what position they take. You saw it as win/win opportunity. No matter what anyone said you could argue just the opposite. If they had given the needy only veggie food you would have accused them of legalism and forcing their beliefs on others.

You're pretty transparent.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: miz3

An SDA junior academy every year each class had to gather food and buy a turkey for both the Thanksgiving and Christmas baskets that were distributed to the "needy" in the area.

No one thought anything about it, yet there were people in the constituency and in the administration and staff that were always quoting Ellen White for this or that including Ellen White's statements on being a vegetarian.

Is this being inconsistent?

I will rarely respond to your posts anymore, but your insinuation is that the people involved in helping those who would otherwise do without should enforce their own choices and beliefs on those they were helping. To this I say, Huh? Where do you get off even thinking that?

And your quoting of the word needy shows a clear prejudice against those who were being helped. You make your attitude of superiority plain in so doing.

I agree with miz3. It is inconsistent and taking her out of context. Just clobbering people over the head with certain quotes.

[ClubV12]

I don't know about the "sin" part of the meat eating question yet, having plenty of other things on my plate to deal with, BUT...

I'm beginning to think that one of the primary reasons for this whole diet thing, not just meat but the whole diet thing, is closely related to clearing the mind. Better health? I guess, if you go about correctly. If you don't, could be worse health? At any rate, the whole "correct diet" deal is enormously complex and fraught with questions of "how".

Never the less, there's something compelling about a simpler diet and a closer connection to Christ. I'm making a little progress in that direction, but mostly in the realm of considering the realistic options I can actually put into play.

Being a single guy, I'm "married" to my microwave and can opener. Take those away and I might starve! :)

[Gail]

LOL Good thing for the can opener, otherwise a power outage might be devastating for you!

But I have heard of people who abstain from meat for moral reasons, because they don't like the killing aspect.

[Flyboy]

Dr. Rich, you can say what you want about killing animals, sin or no sin, doesn't matter. What should matter is that when God created man he did not create him to kill and eat animals. This only came *as a result of sin*. Seems to me that people who strive to live as Christ intended for us to live before sin took over should not be criticized. Nor should they be torn down for trying to convince you. Don't you try pretty hard to convince others that the writings of Paul are bunk? Don't we, as Christians, travel the world and try to convince the heathen of the wild to come into the fold? You need to show a little more patience.

If Parade Orange (or Miz3) thinks killing animals is wrong then good for him, he won't do it. If you are okay with hunting, then fine, do it. If you both want to try and convince each other of your argument, then do that too.... but on a Christian forum, do it with civility. In fact, do it with civility on any forum.

I enjoy a good hamburger, love to eat BBQ chicken from the local VFD's when I was living in the US, and enjoy a nice quiet day fishing on the river, but I won't hunt. At the end of time I have answer for me, not for any of you.

[miz3]

BTW, Ellen White also counseled us to meet people where they are. Of course, though, that wouldn't fit your agenda. You likd to take whatever position you can in your attempt to make SDA's look bad, no matter what position they take. You saw it as win/win opportunity. No matter what anyone said you could argue just the opposite. If they had given the needy only veggie food you would have accused them of legalism and forcing their beliefs on others.

GaryK, if SDA look bad they did it themselves!

However, I am not trying to make SDA look bad. You do not know what is my mind yet you accuse me of playing both sides of the street. I don't do that.

You have made up your mind about me and you have demonstrated your hatred for me and your prejudiced against me. Again, I will tell you that your attitude toward me is at minimum unChristian and very unhealthy for you to harbor such feelings.

You need to get on your SDA knees and ask God for forgiveness for harboring such hatefulness in your heart for me, a human for which God sent Jesus Christ to die for.

[miz3]

To all,

So that my position on this issue is very clear.

1. I believe SDA in general have used Ellen White as a "vegetarian club"

2. I believe Ellen White herself struggled mightily with her own Testimony on diet well before 1890, and actually had trouble also with the issue of "clean" and "unclean" foods from the Bible.

3. I believe many SDA have lived duplicitous lives hammering others while they themselves do differently.

4. I believe in regard to diet and drink that everyone should be convinced in their OWN MIND what God wants THEM, AND THEM ALONE to do and practice.

5. I believe like flyboy says that it is fine to discuss and push the envelop but that on this issue we should never, ever, judge others by the standard we set for ourselves.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

My church rents the space out on Sunday mornings to an Episcopalian congregation who are in the process of building their own church. It was decided that the SDA congregation and the Sunday congregation would have a joint potluck one Sabbath. Quite a few meat dishes showed up. Some in the SDA congregation got a bit upset, but most didn't say anything...in fact, most took some helpings of the various meat dishes.

My dad always said that some day he wanted to show up at a church (SDA) potluck with a can of beer and a dish of pork and beans. (Dad and I had similar views on humor...not always appreciated by some, and pretty much over the heads of others..)

I knew a couple who were SDA missionaries in Asia for years beginning in the 1930's...they were there during WW!!. Sometimes, they told me, they were invited by villagers to meals..sometimes there was meat. They ate what was put before them - meat, insects, whatever. They didn't see meal time as a time to be honking about the devil and meat-eating..

[CoAspen]

[phkrause]

rudywoofs, that kind of reminds me of my days working for FFT. Shortly after I started there, they took the whole company out to eat, to celebrate them getting out of the red. As the waitress came around and took each persons order, there were like 7 people before me, they all ordered a vegetarian meal. When they got to me I ordered a steak dinner, I was young and did enjoy eating a good steak. Well all those that ordered before me asked the waitress to redo there orders. I really don't have a problem with potlucks at church being vegetarian meals, but when going out to eat, just be yourself, eat what your accustom to.

[Gary K]

I agree with miz3. It is inconsistent and taking her out of context. Just clobbering people over the head with certain quotes.

So, not enforcing your beliefs on those outside your church is somehow inconsistent because there is debate about the belief inside the church? I find this to be very bad logic.

I've been treated poorly by those inside the church too, many times. However, I would be more upset about those outside of the church being treated the same way I was than I was upset about how I had been treated. I would feel that way because of how it would have misrepresented God to them. miz3 sees things just the opposite. He sees a problem that the internal debate inside the church didn't spill over into how the people outside the church were treated. I find this to be very disturbing behavior.

If it upsets someone because a fellow SDA might quote Ellen White to them about meat eating, well, then that person might need to examine why they get defensive about it. Getting defensive about something is usually indicative of feelings of guilt about that issue.

[Gary K]

I knew a couple who were SDA missionaries in Asia for years beginning in the 1930's...they were there during WW!!. Sometimes, they told me, they were invited by villagers to meals..sometimes there was meat. They ate what was put before them - meat, insects, whatever. They didn't see meal time as a time to be honking about the devil and meat-eating..

I have never been a missionary, but I have eaten pork while being an active member of the SDA churh because of the spirit in which it was offered to me.

I was doing a repair on a walk-in cooler for a Chinese restaurant. We started early and finished the job late in the afternoon. At noon the owner, who spoke very little English, had his daughter ask us to go sit down at one of the tables in the restaurant because he was so grateful for our work he wanted to feed us.

Well, I sat down and when they brought out the food everything had pork in it. To get up and walk away from it would have been very insulting to him as I could have never explained things to him. The communication gap was just too large. So, I ate the lunch he prepared for me.

I'm pretty sure I'll be accused of being a hypocrite, but that's OK. I'm a big boy now and, thanks to the regenerative power of God, no longer live a shame and guilt driven life like I did before I met Him.

[Parade Orange]

DR RICH u misunderstand what i was saying

first of all im not PETA my son is and we talk about it alot together

i had not asked if he thought man and animal is the same but i will

and MAN is the crowning act of creation made in the image of GOD

im sorry u thought i was denying that

and i didnt say killing is a sin

and you think i dont belong addressing this?

you dont know my background or my work or my region or my experience in this very issue

i suggest u read my post again cause i didnt say anything that u thought i said

GOD BLESS YOU

im not really orange but are you really a doctor?

[miz3]

miz3 sees things just the opposite. He sees a problem that the internal debate inside the church didn't spill over into how the people outside the church were treated. I find this to be very disturbing behavior.

All I said was that the people who were quoting Ellen White to everyone that meat eating was a sin, then turned around and demanded that in feeding the poor they should get a big turkey.

I found this to be inconsistent behavior. If they felt so strongly about diet they could have fed the poor with out violating their precious view of diet.

Personally I didn't care whether the poor got the turkeys or not. I had no problem with delivering a turkey. I did not even point out the inconsistency that I saw.

Read my post on my position on SDA and diet.

In fact GaryK your "pork incident" I have something to say about that.

You did the exact correct thing! To have made a big fuss about that in my view would itself have been a sin and done unrepairable damage on many fronts.

However, I have seen people who have done such damage because they felt Ellen White demanded they remain pristine to be translated.