What are the issues in Sunday keeping vs. Sabbath keeping?

[Sonny]

Read me

[Sonny]

Some key points that perhaps we should discuss:

"Salvation, like creation, begins not by doing something but by resting in the perfect and finished work realized in the doing and dying of our Lord Jesus Christ. Only then can we enjoy the benefits and blessings of salvation. In view of this, the Sabbath rest becomes the very foundation of the glorious truth of Justification or Righteousness by Faith alone."

"...any Sabbath keeping that is not motivated by a faith response to Christ’s perfect atonement on the cross is a sham and still belongs to the old covenant of salvation by works."

"Christ’s work of restoration [1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Hebrews 2:13], which will be realized at the end of His heavenly ministry, is also linked with the Sabbath [isaiah 66:22-23]. This is because it will also be a perfect and finished work as was creation and redemption. Thus, to fallen man the Sabbath has a threefold significance — Creation, Redemption, and Restoration."

"...the entrance of sin that destroyed the significance of the Sabbath rest, since sin is rebellion against God, in exchange for self-dependence [Romans 1:21; Philippians 2:21]. Thus, when sin separated us from God [isaiah 59:2], no longer did His Sabbath have any significance."

"Because of the mixed, confused ideas of salvation, the true controversy between God’s Sabbath and man’s Sunday is today still foggy and not clearly understood. But when the two opposing methods of salvation come into clear focus, then the true importance of the Sabbath will be seen clearly. May God give us, at that time, the grace and courage to stand for truth."

[Sonny]

"...the entrance of sin that destroyed the significance of the Sabbath rest, since sin is rebellion against God, in exchange for self-dependence [Romans 1:21; Philippians 2:21]. Thus, when sin separated us from God [isaiah 59:2], no longer did His Sabbath have any significance."

Here's more on why the Sabbath as it is linked to creation no longer is relevant:

The fall destroyed the Sabbath’s significance, since sin is turning from God-dependence to self-dependence. Isa. 59:2 says that your sin separates you from God. Gen. 3:19 is a good text. What did God say to Adam after he fell?

From now onward you will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow.

Before that, God worked for Adam. When you read about the Garden of Eden, it says it was God who planted the garden for Adam. Now God says,

From now onward you will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow.

That means, “You will have no rest.” So the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath.

The creature/Creator relationship was always to be a relationship of total dependence. God never created man to live independent of Him. That’s why Jesus said,

Without Me you can do nothing.

Now we must apply this also in terms of salvation.

I am the vine, you are the branches. Abide in Me and I in you.

That was always. So when Adam sinned he departed from God-dependence. In order to restore the Sabbath rest to man, Jesus came to work again. He said “I must work the works of my Father.” What was the work that God gave Him to do? To save us.

Now comes the big question. At what point did Jesus redeem us? When Christ was born, the birth includes the conception and everything, He began His salvation. I have given you Matt. 1:21: Mary and Joseph were instructed but when Jesus was born, “He shall be called ‘Jesus’ because He shall save His people from their sins.” The word “Jesus” means Saviour.

When did Christ actually redeem the human race? At what point of His earthly history? Is it at the cross or is it at the resurrection? All Christians agree that it was at the cross. Why is Good Friday called “Good”? Look at John 17:4 where Christ says,

I have finished the work you have given Me to do.

Also, in John 19:31, on the cross when He said,

It is finished.

So our salvation involves two distinct works of Christ. Everything Jesus did up to including the cross involved the earthly ministry of Christ.

The sanctuary was made up of two squares: the western square representing Christ’s heavenly ministry and the eastern square representing His earthly ministry. Both are required for our salvation. His earthly ministry began with His birth and ended at the cross. At the cross, Jesus became the Saviour of all men. There are many texts in the New Testament to that effect and there is no problem there. The resurrection began the second ministry which is the heavenly ministry and it will not end until the New Earth when He puts all enemies under His feet. Between the cross and the resurrection is the Sabbath. He finished His first work [earthly ministry] and rested. He will finish this second work [heavenly ministry] and He will rest. So the Sabbath in the context of redemption points to two things, a finished redemption and a finished restoration.

So when we keep the Sabbath we do two things. We look backward to our security in Christ, the finished redemption, and we look forward to the restoration. So the Sabbath is a day of rejoicing because it points backwards to the cross which finished our redemption and it points forward to the blessed hope which we are given that God will restore this earth. That’s why in Isa.66:23 it says,

From one Sabbath to another all flesh shall come to worship Him.

So please remember that the Sabbath point to a finished work.

How much did man contribute towards our redemption in Christ? Nothing! This redemption involves two phases: the doing of Christ, which met the positive demands of the law, and the death of Christ, which points to the justice of the law. So in this doing and dying Jesus met all the demands of the law in terms of our salvation.

[BobRyan]

Sabbath and Marriage are the two Edenic institutions taken with Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden.

In the Sabbath God's authority is most clearly tested because many an atheist can choose to not worship gods of idol, be faithful in his marriage, choose not to use bad language, choose not to steal, choose not to dishoner parents etc. At least to a great degree.

But once every 7 days the Sabbath hours come around and the atheist must explicitly choose to ignore or honor God on that day. And of course they always choose to dishonor God's authority on that day.

It is a point of extreme exposure to the authority of God - where just doing your own thing, minding your own business, as a model citizen will still bring you into direct explicit, external, public, conflict with the Law of God if you are really not a Bible based Christian.

Even our Catholic friends admit that this portion of the Ten Commandments is not in natural law that could be sensed by someone without any Bible at all.

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

In the Sabbath God's authority is most clearly tested....

The Sabbath is not a test, it's a symbol. What that symbol represents is being discussed here.

[BobRyan]

Sabbath is a "memorial" of the creation event happening in 7 actual days. It is not "destroyed" by Adam when he leaves the garden. The memorial event continues to be observed to this very day.

This is why God chooses "memorial language" in Ex 20 - in the actual text of the Sabbath Commandment and claims that its memorial focus continues - yes even after the fall of mankind.

Rev 14 predicts Sabbath as a test.

Exodus 16 shows God explicitly testing Israel on the subject of the Sabbath.

Sabbath is unique among the Ten Commandments in that it extends out so far into humanity's every day life - that even a very good very cultured atheist will encounter it even if they choose to live extremely well behaved lives in all other respects.

As far as keeping the Sabbath as a Christian - it is no different than keeping the other commandments as a born-again Christian vs just engaging in some outward conformity.

I doubt that Adam and Eve kept their first Sabbath as "born again saints" or as someone thankful for deliverance from sin.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

"...the entrance of sin that destroyed the significance of the Sabbath rest, since sin is rebellion against God, in exchange for self-dependence [Romans 1:21; Philippians 2:21]. Thus, when sin separated us from God [isaiah 59:2], no longer did His Sabbath have any significance."

This is as false and unbiblical as one can get.

[Sonny]

This is as false and unbiblical as one can get.

Calling it unbiblical doesn't make it unbiblical. It is very clear, unless one wishes to remain with tradition.

[Sonny]

Sabbath is a "memorial" of the creation event happening in 7 actual days.

What did the Sabbath point to or symbolize? A perfect creation, right? Is God's creation ruined - is it fallen? Yes! Then it no longer points to current truth. That truth is the past. Therefore it is meaningless as a sign of perfection.

[Guest]

What balderdash! With a capitol "B"

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

hmm. This is the 2nd thread I've read so far today...it's goofy, too. I feel like I entered DisneyLand.

[Sonny]

What balderdash! With a capitol "B"

That's no proof. The Jews kept the Sabbath, what did it get them? They kept it in order to earn heaven. This is the flesh.

The Sabbath of creation was the day God rested from His perfect work of creation. His rest was eternal. He didn't resume creating on the 8th day - our Sunday. His was work was perfect.

God is now no longer resting from His perfect creation. Why? It was ruined at the fall. We are children of the fall. We live in a world under Lucifer's rule (i.e., he is the god of this world - the lord of this world). It's a dying planet full of sin & death.

Therefore the Sabbath no longer points to a perfect creation. In fact as soon as Adam fell the Trinity started working again. This time it was to save the human race. That work was accomplished at the cross where Christ redeemed the world unto Himself. That work is perfect...it's complete. This is the only valid reason for resting today.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

This is as false and unbiblical as one can get.

Calling it unbiblical doesn't make it unbiblical. It is very clear, unless one wishes to remain with tradition.

So if the Sabbath lost its meaning, why would God, thousands of years after the Fall, give a command to "REMEMBER..." it? And the reason given was because of His creative works? If it made sense to give the Sabbath to perfect people like Adam & Eve, would it not make even more sense to give it to sinful and forgetful people after the Fall?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The Sabbath of creation was the day God rested from His perfect work of creation. His rest was eternal. He didn't resume creating on the 8th day - our Sunday. His was work was perfect.

NOTE: "...perfect work of creation..."

NOTE: "...His rest was eternal..." [emphasis mine]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

God is now no longer resting from His perfect creation. Why? It was ruined at the fall. We are children of the fall. We live in a world under Lucifer's rule (i.e., he is the god of this world - the lord of this world). It's a dying planet full of sin & death.

NOTE: "God is now no longer resting" (but His rest was "eternal")

NOTE: "His perfect creation...was ruined at the fall..." (but God made a "perfect work of creation")

NOTE: the Garden of Eden is still perfect...

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Therefore the Sabbath no longer points to a perfect creation.

NOTE: Inductive fallacy of logic.

Originally Posted By: Sonny

In fact as soon as Adam fell the Trinity started working again. This time it was to save the human race. That work was accomplished at the cross where Christ redeemed the world unto Himself. That work is perfect...it's complete. This is the only valid reason for resting today.

NOTE: Inductive fallacy of logic.

[Sonny]

NOTE: Inductive fallacy of logic.

Is this all you can state? Refute my statements using the immediate context of Genesis.

[Sonny]

So if the Sabbath lost its meaning, why would God, thousands of years after the Fall, give a command to "REMEMBER..." it? And the reason given was because of His creative works?

That law was smitten to pieces. The 2nd set of tablets had a different meaning for keeping the Sabbath:

Deut 5:12 Be careful to dedicate the Sabbath day, as the Lord your God has commanded you. 13 You are to labor six days and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. You must not do any work.....

Now the motive or reason why:

15 Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. That is why the Lord your God has commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

Was God's work of freeing the Jews from bondage totally God's work? Was it complete? Yes! Therefore the Jews were not to work on the 7th-day because of God's perfect redemption.

[Sonny]

NOTE: "God is now no longer resting" (but His rest was "eternal")

You need to think a bit deeper before you make such statements.

At creation God rested from His perfect work. That rest was eternal UNTIL sin entered. Sin ruined God's perfect creation and hence the Sabbath no longer pointed to God's rest. How so? He now had to begin working in order to redeem the human race.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

NOTE: "God is now no longer resting" (but His rest was "eternal")

You need to think a bit deeper before you make such statements.

At creation God rested from His perfect work. That rest was eternal UNTIL sin entered. Sin ruined God's perfect creation and hence the Sabbath no longer pointed to God's rest. How so? He now had to begin working in order to redeem the human race.

Sonny, I was quoting you.

Your logic needs oiling...

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So if the Sabbath lost its meaning, why would God, thousands of years after the Fall, give a command to "REMEMBER..." it? And the reason given was because of His creative works?

That law was smitten to pieces. The 2nd set of tablets had a different meaning for keeping the Sabbath:

But the Law was already broken many gazillion times over BEFORE Sinai!!! So why would the breaking of the Law at Sinai be any different from the breaking of the Law by those before Sinai? Furthermore, because we also break the other 9 commandments, then their original intent is no longer applicable? What kind of logic is this?

Quote:

Now the motive or reason why:

15 Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. That is why the Lord your God has commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

Your "either or" logic is flawed. The Sabbath taking on another meaning, i.e. deliverance from Egypt, does not invalidate the first, i.e. a memorial of creation & His rest. By the same logic that you are using, when God said that the Sabbath is also a symbol of His sanctifying power, i.e. that He alone can make us holy, did this third symbol of the Sabbath invalidate the previous two? The answer is crystal clear to me! Yeah, as you have advised Pam, think this through a little deeper.

Quote:

Was God's work of freeing the Jews from bondage totally God's work? Was it complete? Yes! Therefore the Jews were not to work on the 7th-day because of God's perfect redemption.

False premise (or is this a conclusion?) again! If God's work of redemption is already complete, why are the Jews still fighting for their very existence? Think this through, Sonny boy.

[Sonny]

Sonny, I was quoting you.

Your logic needs oiling...

No, this is a lie! You misrepresented me. I explained myself...you continued in your misrepresentation.

[Sonny]

But the Law was already broken many gazillion times over BEFORE Sinai!!!

[Sonny]

Think this through, Sonny boy.

I need a moderator to step in and deal with Gerry's degrading remarks. Stan, John?

[Sonny]

False premise (or is this a conclusion?) again! If God's work of redemption is already complete, why are the Jews still fighting for their very existence?

So you are rejecting that God's deliverance of the Jews from Egyptian bondage was perfect & complete?

Gen 15:13 Then the Lord said to Abram, "Know this for certain: Your offspring [the Jews] will be strangers in a land that does not belong to them; they will be enslaved and oppressed 400 years. 14 However, I will judge the nation they serve, and afterwards they will go out with many possessions....

God kept His word to Abram. He delivered Abram's children from Egyptian bondage. Afterwards God rested from His work.

The Sabbath under the new set of tablets points to this deliverance of the Jews. The Sabbath that pointed to creation was never restored. Hence your Sabbath observance because of creation is meaningless. You need to understand why you rest...otherwise it's tradition. God hates dog & pony shows....

[Sonny]

Read me

Let's get back on path:

Here's Jack Sequeira, a retired 7th-day Adventist's Minister, who is in good standing with the SDA denomination. This is what he said about the Sabbath's link to creation:

It is the entrance of sin that destroyed the significance of the Sabbath rest, since sin is rebellion against God, in exchange for self-dependence [Romans 1:21; Philippians 2:21]. Thus, when sin separated us from God [isaiah 59:2], no longer did His Sabbath have any significance.

There's many more statements like this.

The point is Adventist, since 1888 was mostly rejected, have branched off into tradition like many other denominations. We need to get back to our Bibles and look at the reasons we do the things we do. We must be honest.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Think this through, Sonny boy.

I need a moderator to step in and deal with Gerry's degrading remarks. Stan, John?

That was not meant to degrade you. I'm just playing with the name you have chosen, "Sonny".