What are the issues in Sunday keeping vs. Sabbath keeping?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Read me

Let's get back on path:

Here's Jack Sequeira, a retired 7th-day Adventist's Minister, who is in good standing with the SDA denomination. This is what he said about the Sabbath's link to creation:

It is the entrance of sin that destroyed the significance of the Sabbath rest, since sin is rebellion against God, in exchange for self-dependence [Romans 1:21; Philippians 2:21]. Thus, when sin separated us from God [isaiah 59:2], no longer did His Sabbath have any significance.

There's many more statements like this.

The point is Adventist, since 1888 was mostly rejected, have branched off into tradition like many other denominations. We need to get back to our Bibles and look at the reasons we do the things we do. We must be honest.

An opinion. And has no Scriptural basis whatsoever. If anything, for forgetful people who have either forgotten the Sabbath or ignoring it, it has become an even more powerful reminder of what the Sabbath meant.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

But the Law was already broken many gazillion times over BEFORE Sinai!!!

Let's not play games, Gerry. Here's the text:

No games, Rob. This is serious business when someone says that one of God's commandments has lost its meaning. That is total nonsense to me. If one commandment has lost its meaning because it has been broken, then the other 9c have also lost their meaning.

Quote:

Ex 32:19 As he [Moses] approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, Moses became enraged and threw the tablets out of his hands, smashing them at the base of the mountain. 20 Then he took the calf they had made, burned [it] up, and ground [it] to powder.

Originally Posted By: Gerry

The Sabbath taking on another meaning, i.e. deliverance from Egypt, does not invalidate the first, i.e. a memorial of creation & His rest.

Sonny: Sure it does.

And who are you or JS to declare God's law invalidated?

Quote:

I believe God was trying to make a point, through Moses, that the Sabbath as related to a sign of perfection in creation, was no longer valid. It makes sense to those not blinded by their tradition.

If that is what you want to believe, that's fine with me. But I see no Biblical support for such a belief. If taking God at His word is tradition, then let us have MORE tradition!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

False premise (or is this a conclusion?) again! If God's work of redemption is already complete, why are the Jews still fighting for their very existence?

So you are rejecting that God's deliverance of the Jews from Egyptian bondage was perfect & complete?

Oh, they left Egypt, alright. But did Egypt ever leave the first generation that left Egypt? If their deliverance was total & perfect, why did their bones bleach in the desert?

[BobRyan]

Read me

Compare to this -

R.C Sproul.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._C._Sproul

Renewing your Mind” – Radio program heard last Friday on WNIV.

Hear at least 4 minutes of this program at 15:35 minutes at this link: http://www.wniv.com/player/player.aspx?ShowId=201

Click on the Play button and slide the progress bar out to about 15:45 (15 min 45 seconds) to hear a 4 minute discussion of Sproul’s view of the origin of the Sabbath and blue laws.

[BobRyan]

"...the entrance of sin that destroyed the significance of the Sabbath rest, since sin is rebellion against God, in exchange for self-dependence [Romans 1:21; Philippians 2:21]. Thus, when sin separated us from God [isaiah 59:2], no longer did His Sabbath have any significance."

This is as false and unbiblical as one can get.

[Sonny]

That was not meant to degrade you. I'm just playing with the name you have chosen, "Sonny".

Now you are justifying your actions...excusing yourself. Let's keep our comments to the discussion and not take personel swipes.

[Sonny]

An opinion. And has no Scriptural basis whatsoever.

Sure it has Scriptural evidence. I just gave it to you. The new set of tablets said nothing about creation.

[Sonny]

This is serious business when someone says that one of God's commandments has lost its meaning. That is total nonsense to me. If one commandment has lost its meaning because it has been broken, then the other 9c have also lost their meaning.

[BobRyan]

The new set of tablets said nothing about creation.

That is facinating fiction.

where did you get it??

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

The question is really this – does the action of the judgment passing over to the cases of the living decide their eternal destiny?

This is not the subject of this thread.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

The new set of tablets said nothing about creation.

That is facinating fiction.

where did you get it??

Deut 5:1 Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, "Israel, listen to the statutes and ordinances I am proclaiming as you hear them today. Learn and follow them carefully. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 He did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face from the fire on the mountain. 5 At that time I was standing between the Lord and you to report the word of the Lord to you, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain. And He said: 6 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the place of slavery. 7 Do not have other gods besides Me. 8 Do not make an idol for yourself in the shape of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth. 9 You must not bow down to them or worship them, because I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the fathers' sin to the third and fourth [generations] of those who hate Me, 10 but showing faithful love to a thousand [generations] of those who love Me and keep My commands. 11 Do not misuse the name of the Lord your God, because the Lord will punish anyone who misuses His name. 12 Be careful to dedicate the Sabbath day, as the Lord your God has commanded you. 13 You are to labor six days and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. You must not do any work-you, your son or daughter, your male or female slave, your ox or donkey, any of your livestock, or the foreigner who lives within your gates, so that your male and female slaves may rest as you do.

15 Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. That is why the Lord your God has commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

16 Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and so that you may prosper in the land the Lord your God is giving you. 17 Do not murder. 18 Do not commit adultery. 19 Do not steal. 20 Do not give dishonest testimony against your neighbor. 21 Do not desire your neighbor's wife or covet your neighbor's house, his field, his male or female slave, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

[BobRyan]

Here's Jack Sequeira, a retired 7th-day Adventist's Minister, who is in good standing with the SDA denomination. This is what he said about the Sabbath's link to creation:

It is the entrance of sin that destroyed the significance of the Sabbath rest, since sin is rebellion against God, in exchange for self-dependence [Romans 1:21; Philippians 2:21]. Thus, when sin separated us from God [isaiah 59:2], no longer did His Sabbath have any significance.

so is your point that you think the church leadership should revoke Sequera's license each time he blunders as in the case above - or are you asking that we all toss out our Bibles and take any bit of speculative writing that Sequera can think up as if it is holy writ??

I am inclined to reject both ideas. (OR at least reject the second idea if not entirely reject the first).

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

so is your point that you think the church leadership should revoke Sequera's license each time he blunders as in the case above

[BobRyan]

Deut 5 takes place 40 years AFTER the Ex 20 Mt Sinai giving of the tablets of Stone.

Notice how often in Deut 5 Moses refers BACK to the Ex 20 event saying that Israel is to follow the commands of God AS GIVEN at that time!

Quote:

4 The LORD talked with you face to face on the mountain from the midst of the fire.

5 I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD; for you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up the mountain. He said:

6 ‘I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

7 ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.

8 ‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

11 ‘You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

12 ‘ Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

16 ‘ Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may be well with you in the land which the LORD your God is giving you.

17 ‘You shall not murder.

18 ‘You shall not commit adultery.

19 ‘You shall not steal.

20 ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

21 ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.’

22 “These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Moses is emphatic that God "added no more" to what he gave at that time - in the mountain, from the midst of fire, when the cloud and thick darkness covered the mountain and God Himself spoke with a loud voice.

How many different ways was there for Moses to say - pay attention to what God said to Israel 40 years ago at Sinai.

Hint: Moses was not re-chisling stone in Deut 5.

The Words spoken by God in Ex 20 -- thundered down from Sinai in the hearing of all the people were not spoken "again" or "edited" in Deut 5.

So this bit of pure fiction where the stones do NOT reflect what was actually spoken to the people from Sinai when the cloud covered the mountain and the people trembled at the voice of God - is ok for fiction but it is horrible as supposed fact.

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

speculative writing that Sequera

Let me give you more:

The fall destroyed the Sabbath’s significance, since sin is turning from God-dependence to self-dependence. Isa. 59:2 says that your sin separates you from God. Gen. 3:19 is a good text. What did God say to Adam after he fell?

From now onward you will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow.

Before that, God worked for Adam. When you read about the Garden of Eden, it says it was God who planted the garden for Adam. Now God says,

From now onward you will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow.

That means, “You will have no rest.” So the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath.

The creature/Creator relationship was always to be a relationship of total dependence. God never created man to live independent of Him. That’s why Jesus said,

Without Me you can do nothing.

Now we must apply this also in terms of salvation.

I am the vine, you are the branches. Abide in Me and I in you.

That was always. So when Adam sinned he departed from God-dependence. In order to restore the Sabbath rest to man, Jesus came to work again. He said “I must work the works of my Father.” What was the work that God gave Him to do? To save us.

[Sonny]

Moses recorded both books. Moses, in speaking of the 2nd set, said:

15 Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. That is why the Lord your God has commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

Clearly God has redemption in mind, not creation. Your argument is with Moses.

[BobRyan]

Using one truth to destroy another is often tried but seldom successful.

It is true that mankind was no longer at peace with God after the fall and that before the fall the earth produced food without effort on man's part.

It is not true that man did not work before the fall. Man did have work to do in the form of tending to the garden of Eden in ways very different from the cultivation work that we do now. Sequeira knows this to be true.

There is not one spec of difference here between not bowing down to graven images and Sabbath keeping after the fall. Compliance with those commands is not optional for the saints - but keeping them in the case of a lost person does not make them saved.

Thus at Sinai - AFTER THE FALL of mankind - God is more than happy to point to Creation week as the reason and authority for the Sabbath.

Pretty hard to miss.

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

In order to restore the Sabbath rest to man, Jesus came to work again. He said “I must work the works of my Father.” What was the work that God gave Him to do? To save us.

Heb 10:5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world [when He was made flesh], he said: "Sacrifice and offering you [God] did not desire, but a body [our humanity] you prepared for me; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, 'Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God [He came to work again and redeem the human race].' " 8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Christ's work 2000 years ago is complete work. His doing & dying redeemed humanity.

What day did Jesus die?

Late Friday just before sundown.

What day did God rest from His perfect work of redemption "in Christ"?

The Sabbath day.

Why?

God's work of redemption "in Christ" stands perfect and complete. You are perfect now and in the judgement in Christ Jesus.

That's the only reason you should acknowledge the Sabbath. Otherwise, as Jack states, you below to the old covenant of works!

Start doing the right thing for the right reason. The Jews kept the Sabbath. Outwardly they did good, but inwardly it was filled with tradition & self-righteousness. Don't do the same!

[BobRyan]

Moses said that the Stone Tablets at Sinai accurately reflected God's Word at Sinai - regarding all 10 commandments but especially in the case of the 4th commandment.

Moses said that the ten commandments were on the stones given to him by God - 40 years prior to Deut 5.

Quote:

12 ‘ Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.

13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,

14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.

15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

16 ‘ Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may be well with you in the land which the LORD your God is giving you.

17 ‘You shall not murder.

18 ‘You shall not commit adultery.

19 ‘You shall not steal.

20 ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

21 ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.’

22 “These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

[Sonny]

It is not true that man did not work before the fall. Man did have work to do in the form of tending to the garden of Eden in ways very different from the cultivation work that we do now.

[Sonny]

He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Yes and those original stones where broken. When restored God through Moses changed the reason the Jews were to keep the Sabbath. Get that through you head, Bob. The Sabbath remained, the reason why changed....

[BobRyan]

[The Sabbath day.

Why?

God's work of redemption "in Christ" stands perfect and complete. You are perfect now and in the judgement in Christ Jesus.

That's the only reason you should acknowledge the Sabbath.

Dead wrong.

Any time your leader causes you to suppose that you should ignore what God actually said in the 4th commandment as HE spoke it - you know you are headed down the wrong road - following the wrong man.

Better to just accept the Bible.

God said "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it HOLY...SIX days you shall labor... for in SIX days the Lord made" impossible to delete or ignore.

Even in Rev 14 God continues that same line of reasoning "WORSHIP Him who made the heavens and the earth and the springs of water".

The hollow argument that "God wants you to ignore His Word as though it were a favor to him" does not fly at all. Christ explicitly attacks that idea in Matthew 5-7 sermon on the mount.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Yes and those original stones where broken. When restored God through Moses changed the reason the Jews were to keep the Sabbath. Get that through you head, Bob. The Sabbath remained, the reason why changed....

Not according to Moses in Deut 5.

In Deut 5 Moses says that the 10 commandments in stone are still to that very day as given at Sinai and as spoken to the people.

The entire fiction that God edited/deleted his own word is pure fiction.

22 “These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

How many different ways are their for the blunders in Jack's statements to be exposed by the text of Deut 5?

Hint: Every Bible scholar known to mankind (including Jack) admit that the text of Ex 20 is what was spoken at Sinai to the people.

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

The hollow argument that "God wants you to ignore His Word as though it were a favor to him" does not fly at all. Christ explicitly attacks that idea in Matthew 5-7 sermon on the mount.

No one said ignore....Stop the misrepresentation! The reason changed. You and most SDA are keeping tradition, not the Sabbath. You have no idea why you rest!

Tell me, what does your resting symbolize on the Sabbath? And don't give me tradition...give me a Bible reason and in context!!!!!!

[Sonny]

In Deut 5 Moses says that the 10 commandments in stone are still to that very day as given at Sinai and as spoken to the people.

Doesn't matter....Moses, through God, changed the reason the Sabbath was to be kept. Shall I give you that reason again? Yes, I shall:

15 Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. That is why the Lord your God has commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.