What are the issues in Sunday keeping vs. Sabbath keeping?

[Sonny]

As the Jews departed from God, and failed to make the righteousness of Christ their own by faith, the Sabbath lost its significance to them [DA 283]

[skyblue888]

The Jews were keeping the Sabbath according to the letter of the law instead of according to the spirit of the law. The problem with their Sabbath keeping was that their ears had not been opened. (Psalm 40:6; Isaiah 50:4,5) If their ears had been opened the Sabbath commandment would have been, not a work, but a promise, a rest. The Sabbath is a rest. When we abide in Christ and He in us, we have the rest and the seventh-day is a memorial of the rest we have in Christ. We are resting in His merits, the merits of His infinite sacrifice and the law is taken care of. Then we are keeping the commandments of God. Then the Sabbath day becomes a delight!

sky

[Sonny]

The Sabbath is a rest.

What are we resting from? Please don't say our work, because we rest in the same manner as God rested. God wasn't tired; so it can' refer to our need to have a day off.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Now, from what did God rest? Yes?

?

Bob, can you answer this? If not why not say, "I don't know!" Silence tells me you don't, but I would rather hear it from you directly.

[skyblue888]

Sonny, the difference lies between the letter and the Spirit.

Our Sabbath keeping can either be as dry as the hills of Gilboa, according to the letter of the law, without dew or rain, or it can be a delight, in the Spirit. When we are in the Spirit, the works of the law (our own efforts to keep the law, prompted by the letter of the law) have ceased. It is the Spirit that works in us both to will and to do and not ourselves anymore. Thus the Sabbath becomes a delight.

sky

[Sonny]

....It is the Spirit that works in us both to will and to do and not ourselves anymore.

Again, the work of the Spirit is unfinished. What did EGW state? Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. It's about growing...becoming more selfless & less selfish....

The Sabbath always points to a finished work. At creation the Sabbath symbolized a perfect & complete creation. Sometime after the fall God rescued Abraham's children. Then it stood for a perfect and complete redemption from slavery.

This side of the cross the Sabbath is a symbol of God's perfect redemption in Christ Jesus and it will remain so until the new earth is created. Then is will symbolize a perfect recreation. Then we will be sinless & immortal. So the Sabbath is always God's 7th day, but the reason why we acknowledge it has changed over time.

SDA should present the Sabbath as it related to the cross and justification by faith. Then the Sunday keeping Christians could no longer call you guys old covenant, legalist.

That's how they view your Sabbath keeping - old covenant. The way to answer that charge is to explain the Sabbath in the light of the gospel - not the law. Then they can't point that finger.

[Sonny]

SDA should present the Sabbath as it related to the cross and justification by faith.

Here's Jack's take on this subject:

In our last study I told an experience I had in Ethiopia with a professor who was teaching a class of seventeen students on Comparative Religions. He was an American from Ohio. He gave them the assignment to attend four different churches, observe their worships, and write a paper on it. The students were allowed to choose the four denominations and since we are a very strong church in Ethiopia, thanks to our relationship to the Emperor before he was deposed, they chose as one of their churches to visit our church in Addis Ababa.

The pastor was not willing to speak so they asked me. I chose the subject of the Sabbath. The title of the sermon was “The Sabbath and The Gospel.” I did not touch the law at that time. I preached on the Sabbath in connection with the gospel alone. One of the accusations that has been levelled at us by many people who are non-Adventists is that the Adventist Church keeps the Sabbath under the Old Covenant. That’s their main argument.

The Old Covenant simply teaches that you have to keep the law in order to be saved. We have to defend the Sabbath on the basis of the New Covenant, which is the covenant of grace. Is there any connection between the Sabbath and the covenant of grace? That was my approach. If we don’t do that we are not convincing any other Christians that are real Bible students.

It was agreed beforehand that after the sermon the students could ask the speaker questions. So I stepped down from the rostrum. The members left the church and the students were in front. They brought their Greek Bibles with them and they brought notebooks and they scribbled. They were writing furiously. I told them “Now you can bombard me with questions.”

The professor stood up and said, “Well, the bus is waiting for us, we have to leave.”

The students turned on him and said, “Look, you promised us that we can ask questions.”

He said, “Yes, but you know we need to consider Pastor Sequeira. His wife, I’m sure is waiting for him.”

I said, “I was aware of the question session. I have made arrangements for my wife to go home with somebody else. I am willing to stay here until midnight. So please don’t use me as an excuse.”

Well, he had no choice. So the first student that stood up was a Baptist, and this is what he said, “This is the first time in my life I have ever stepped into an Adventist church. This is the first time in my life I have ever heard an Adventist preacher. What you preached is excellent. I said ‘Amen’ to what you said.”

I said, “Thank you. What’s your question?”

He said, “Here’s the problem. What you preached from the pulpit and what we were taught in the classroom about Seventh-day Adventists keeping the Sabbath do not agree.” He was, of course, referring to his professor. But he was not accusing his professor because he added, “Our professor documented this from Seventh-day Adventist literature. Therefore my question is, what you preached today, is that Seventh-day Adventist teaching?”

Another student stood up and said, “I would like to answer that question.”

I said, “Really? I didn’t know you were a Seventh-day Adventist.”

He said, “No, I’m a Lutheran. I come from a very strong Adventist community. Most of my schoolmates were Seventh-day Adventists. Some of them are today ministers. I have attended some of your evangelistic efforts. I have sat with some of these pastors who are my schoolmates and we have argued until we were blue in the face and all the time the argument was the law. Therefore, what you preached today is not the teaching of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.”

I said, “Brother, I am not here today to defend the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I am here to defend the truth as it is in Christ. Can you answer me one question? What are you going to do with this truth?”

The professor didn’t like it. He stood up and said, “Brother Sequeira, we have nothing against what you said. It was good. But does it matter which day we keep as long as we are resting in Christ?” That is the same argument that Stedman puts forth in his book. That’s a common argument.

I had talked to the professor earlier before the sermon and had welcomed him. I discovered that he was a missionary in Ethiopia for the last seven years. So he knew Ethiopia pretty well.

So I had said to him, “Brother, you are familiar with the fact that forty-five percent of this country are Muslim?”

He said, “Yes.”

Here’s my question. “If a Muslim becomes a Christian does he need to join the Christian church? Why can’t he keep going to his mosque as long as he believes in Christ? Or would his attending the mosque be a denial of his faith?”

He said, “I see your point, but this is something that deserves time and we have an appointment and I want the students to come. We have to leave.”

He used his authority and the students had to leave. As they were leaving four of them stopped by me and whispered, “Can we come and see you later?”

I said, “By all means.”

Well, I never saw them again, at least for a long time. Two years later I was invited to a banquet. There was a well-known theologian who was passing that way. The ministerial leaders of the different denominations were invited to have fellowship with him. So I went. It was kind of a little party. There were ministers of all different churches and I like to mix with them because the only way to defend the truth is to mix with people. An African, an Ethiopian, came up to me and said, “Do you know me?”

I said “No. At least, I don’t recall your face.”

He said, “I was one of those students who heard you preach on the Sabbath and I have never forgotten that sermon.”

In other words, it was pricking him. This was two years later. I said, ”Were you one of those four who said you would like to see me later?”

He said “Yes.”

I said, “Why didn’t you come and see me?”

He said, “Because when we went back to the classroom the professor told us that if we went and saw you he would report this to our denomination and, of course, that would mean no job.”

I asked, “Have you ever thought about the topic?”

He said, “Yes, it’s been bugging me.”

I said, “Brother, you remember Paul on the Damascus road when Christ said to him ‘It is hard to kick against the pricks’? Brother, you will have no peace until you say to Christ ‘Lord, what do you want me to do?’ And the answer will become obvious.”

Well, folks, we need to defend the Sabbath in the light of the gospel. As I prepared the outline for this study, I realized that we would need more than one evening to cover the topic. So we will be proceeding slowly and thoroughly. The Sabbath is vitally linked to the gospel. We need to make this clear. It is vitally linked to God’s saving activity in Christ. That is why every feast day, there were seven of them, in the Old Testament pointing to the promised Messiah, was designated a day of Sabbath rest.

[Sonny]

Like I said if the SDA denomination is going to defend the Sabbath they should do it through the New Covenant & the gospel.

[BobRyan]

In Gal 1:6-11 we find that the Gospel was preached in the OT and that there is ONLY ONE.

In Heb 4:1-2 we find that the "Gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also".

In Heb 11 We find that THEY are being held up before US as giants of faith in the Gospel system of the New Covenant.

The New Covenant is given in the OT - it is only repeated in the NT.

The New Covenant is the ONE Gospel that saved mankind starting in Gen 3.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Bob, stop it. You are a sinner...you are not living Christ's life. So stop the grandstanding. .

hint: The simple quote of Romans 11 is not "grandstanding".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Bob, can you answer this? If not why not say, "I don't know!" Silence tells me you don't, but I would rather hear it from you directly.

What part of Ex 20 are you struggling with?

11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

part a?? "For in SIX days the LORD MADE"?

part b?? "And RESTED the seventh day - therefore the Lord BLESSED the Sabbath"??

Where is the source of the constant question asking what the Bible says God rested from when the text is so explicit?

How can this possibly be a source of confusion for you?

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

Where is the source of the constant question asking what the Bible says God rested from when the text is so explicit?

Let's here you tell me. He rested from what?

[BobRyan]

Let me quote what God said about it -

11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them,

and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Notice that "the LORD MADE" is then follwed by "and RESTED on the Seventh day"

Let me know where this part of God's Word fails to let you know what He was resting from?

Hint - God created the world and all life on it in 6 days - and then he...??? well you know the rest.

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

Let me quote what God said about it -

11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them,

and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Notice that "the LORD MADE" is then follwed by "and RESTED on the Seventh day"

Let me know where this part of God's Word fails to let you know what He was resting from?

Hint - God created the world and all life on it in 6 days - and then he...??? well you know the rest.

in Christ,

Bob

He rested from His perfect & complete work, right?

He didn't start creating again the day after the Sabbath, right?

Tell me why He rested - was God tired?

[BobRyan]

As for what happened after creation week was over -- Ellen White states that God is busier on Sabbath than on the other days of the week.

You claim to have God's Itinerary - so I leave it to you to tell us just what He was doing each day after creation week.

As for me - I am sticking with the inspired text.

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

As for what happened after creation week was over -- Ellen White states that God is busier on Sabbath than on the other days of the week.

Bob, you know very well EGW was referring to Christ's work after the fall when He was here 2000 years ago. Be honest please....

[Sonny]

As for what happened after creation week was over -- .....I am sticking with the inspired text.

Here's the inspired text:

Gen 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day.

Okay, for six days God's been working, right? Now what does He do?

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and set it aside, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Notice how the author, Moses, keeps repeating the same thing again and again! God was through with creation and that means the day after the 7th-day, our Sunday, He was still resting. His rest was eternal until the fall. Why? He was finished! The world & humanity stood perfect. No additional work was required. The 7th-day was set apart to point to the day God's work of creation was finished and complete.

[Sonny]

Notice how the author, Moses, keeps repeating the same thing again and again! God was through with creation and that means the day after the 7th-day, our Sunday, He was still resting.

If God's work was imperfect & therefore unfinished then the day after the Sabbath God would have had to finish His work, but He didn't! Why? The Sabbath pointed to God's perfect work and the highpoint of His creation was this:

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

Adam and Eve were created as spiritual being fully reflecting the agape love of God, that is, until the fall.

[Dr. Rich]

God placed Adam in the garden for ONE purpose and that was to test him to see if he would choose on he own to obey or not. God did NOT have to place the tree of knowledge in this garden unless it was to be used as a test.

Well, the same thing goes for the Sabbath. Clearly, the fouth commandment is all about remembering who the real Creator is and why God gave a day of rest to man. God could have said that He just wants people to remember Him and it is ok to keep any day set apart from the others---but He didn't---and for good reason! Just as with Adam, so to with all of man kind! It is a TEST. As with Adam, one must use their own mind (brain) to choose to keep it or not. No big deal for man, but it IS a big deal for God! You make the wrong choice and you have choosen yourself over God. He only saves those who obey (Rev. 12:17) no matter what humans come up with excuses to blame it on. There is NO grace involved in making the wrong choice and you can't hide it from God.

Just read the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnessew to prove my understanding is correct. Words from all others is of no value to God.

[Sonny]

Clearly, the fouth commandment is all about remembering who the real Creator is and why God gave a day of rest to man.

Dead wrong! The 1st, 2nd & 3rd speak to that.

The 4th points to God's rest because His creation was perfect. Later Moses gives a new meaning...because of God's perfect work in freeing Israel.

[Dr. Rich]

Huh? Of course the first four are about God, what is your problem? I was NOT dismissing them nor all of the commandments at all! You clearly did not understand what I wrote. I said the word of others (humans) is not to be considered. Only the words of Jesus count!

[ClubV12]

Well Dr. Rich, your not the first to reject the prophets, won't be the last.

[Dr. Rich]

Jesus verified the OT, so I don't find it to have many problem. I was talking about human writers after Jesus was here on this earth. Show me ONE place where Jesus said that there will be another prophet other than the one found in Matthew 24:45?

[Gerr]

Going back to the title of this thread - what are the issues?

1. Obedience - either obey God or man.

2. RE: Sanctification - either accept God as the ONLY One who can make a sinner holy, or work it on your own.

3. Worship - God or somebody else.

4. Accept God as Creator or spontaneous generation.

[Dr. Rich]

Going back to the title of this thread - what are the issues?

1. Obedience - either obey God or man.

2. RE: Sanctification - either accept God as the ONLY One who can make a sinner holy, or work it on your own.

3. Worship - God or somebody else.

4. Accept God as Creator or spontaneous generation.

Gerry, It is not that black and white for number 2. God gave man a choice to work on obeying God or not. God promised the help the the Holy Spirit to those who practice righteous living. One can't simply say that it is God's work to make one righteous.

But should be noted that the Holy Spirit will not dwell with anyone who choses to not obey the ten commandments. That is when the spirit of Satan and the demons take hold of them to get them to falsly believe lies.